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> Rhythmic Motives
Jonas Tamas
post Jan 31 2013, 08:55 AM
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Hi, I'm new here at GMC, and it's cool to become a member in this community! smile.gif

I have a question: when you compose or improvise a guitar solo, do you often repeat the rhythm, which you've just played? I think that repeating rhythmic motives are a great way to make a guitar solo sound more interesting.

Often, you may want to hide or 'camouflage' the repeating rhythms so that they are not so direct and give a more mystic effect. Let me show an example where I've used this method, because the hidden rhythmic motives are a really great way to make your soloing more interesting. I define the meaning of ‘normal’ rhythmic motives as playing the same rhythmic pattern repeatedly, using different melodies or notes.

So when this is a ‘normal’ rhythmic motif, what are hidden rhythmic motives? Well, if you repeat only a part of the original rhythmic motif, then you can hide the fact that you are just repeating a rhythm, so your playing will sound more spontaneous, while retaining the benefits of the motif.

In my opinion, there are at least 4 great ways to utilize this idea. The first one is to play a rhythmic motif and then starting it again, but this time modifying it after a few notes. The second one is to play a rhythmic motif and then playing something completely different BUT starting this different rhythm on the same beat of the bar as the first motif. So this time the starting points are the same, thus creating a connection between the two rhythms. This is a very subtle solution, with big rewards. And the third and the fourth ways are the opposite of the first and two ones. So the third one means that you play a rhythmic motif then play a new rhythm which seems to be different but its second half is the same as the second half of the original rhythm. And the fourth one is playing two completely different motives, but ending both at the same beat of their respective bars.

As you can hear in the sound clip, in this example I have used the third idea. I have played three different motives, but their last four notes have an identical rhythm (a fourth note and three eighth note). This hidden repetition creates the connection between the different motives. In bar four there is a quick arpeggio with tap slide in the middle of it, and with slides at the beginning and ending points. It is a cool way to reach an almost three-octave ascending and descending, on only the 3 high strings. It is always good to come up with something very different in the fourth bar of a theme, to create a closure of the cycle.

I'm sure that after listening to the sound clip once or twice, and seeing the TAB, you can also hear the hidden rhythmic motives.

What are your views and experiences with repeating rhythms?




http://soundcloud.com/jonas-tamas-guitar/streamline-hidden-rhythmic

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Cosmin Lupu
post Jan 31 2013, 09:32 AM
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Hey mate smile.gif Welcome to GMC! I think it's a great idea and I have used similar principles pretty often, although not conscious all the time smile.gif


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Jonas Tamas
post Jan 31 2013, 09:52 AM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Jan 31 2013, 09:32 AM) *
Hey mate smile.gif Welcome to GMC! I think it's a great idea and I have used similar principles pretty often, although not conscious all the time smile.gif



Thanks Cosmin! smile.gif Yes, sometimes it happens unconsciously - you listen to the music you have just recorded, and suddenly realize that your mind and hands have created a repeating rhythmic motif, which you didn't even notice while playing.


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The Professor
post Jan 31 2013, 11:05 AM
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This is a great topic, I wrote a book on this subject and use it as the topic of my research for my Uni gig, so I could discuss rhythmic soloing all day! smile.gif

Two of the things I like to do is to transpose rhythms and retrograde them in my solos.

So, I might have a rhythm that I like and then as I continue my solo I move it around the bar. If it starts on beat 1 of the first bar, when I come back to that rhythm I might start it on the & of 1 or 2 in order to keep the motive going but push it around the bar at the same time.

I also like to flip rhythms around. So if I play 1 quarter and 2 8th notes, I might then play it backwards and do 2 8th notes and 1 quarter. And then of course take both of those rhythms and start them in different parts of the bar to take the motive further.


you can see some examples of this and further explanation in an article I wrote that you might enjoy.


http://www.mattwarnockguitar.com/practicin...melodic-accents

Great topic!


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Jonas Tamas
post Jan 31 2013, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE (The Professor @ Jan 31 2013, 10:05 AM) *
This is a great topic, I wrote a book on this subject and use it as the topic of my research for my Uni gig, so I could discuss rhythmic soloing all day! smile.gif

Two of the things I like to do is to transpose rhythms and retrograde them in my solos.

So, I might have a rhythm that I like and then as I continue my solo I move it around the bar. If it starts on beat 1 of the first bar, when I come back to that rhythm I might start it on the & of 1 or 2 in order to keep the motive going but push it around the bar at the same time.

I also like to flip rhythms around. So if I play 1 quarter and 2 8th notes, I might then play it backwards and do 2 8th notes and 1 quarter. And then of course take both of those rhythms and start them in different parts of the bar to take the motive further.


you can see some examples of this and further explanation in an article I wrote that you might enjoy.


http://www.mattwarnockguitar.com/practicin...melodic-accents

Great topic!


Thanks for your answer and ideas, Matt! I especially liked your reversing idea. And your linked article is a great food of thought, very inspiring.

Have you ever tried out some of the dodecaphonic inversion techniques (mirror, etc)?

My other question: regarding rhythmic ideas, do you find yourself using a different approach when you play jazz, as opposed to rock playing? I'm sure that a lot of the ideas you've mentioned can be used in any style, but I'm curious to know in what extend your rhythm "management" changes if you swap genres?


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The Professor
post Jan 31 2013, 02:03 PM
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Yeah, my wording, "reversed" is the same concept as retrograde from the 12-tone theory. I just prefer that word for popular musical styles since retrograde is fairly closely associated with the 12-tone classical writers.


I don't think the genre matters in regards to developing rhythms in my playing. I would change the modes, scales, etc that I used to fit the style more, but I wouldn't really change how I managed rhythms. Again, I might use different rhythmic motives for different styles, but I wouldn't ignore developing them in a rock setting compared to a jazz setting. I like to use rhythms as the basis for my playing in any style really.


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jan 31 2013, 06:59 PM
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Hey! Welcome to GMC! This topic is very interesting man! That phrasing sound very cool, I like your style. I have never done this type of analysis but I'm sure that as Cosmin said, I usually do this but not being conscious of it.... it's very interesting to find theories about this.


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Jonas Tamas
post Jan 31 2013, 10:52 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jan 31 2013, 05:59 PM) *
Hey! Welcome to GMC! This topic is very interesting man! That phrasing sound very cool, I like your style. I have never done this type of analysis but I'm sure that as Cosmin said, I usually do this but not being conscious of it.... it's very interesting to find theories about this.


Hey Gabe, thanks a lot, I'm glad you dig both the topic and the sound clip:) Yes, in most of the cases it comes naturally by instinct - in this particular song above I have discovered these motives after the song has been finished:D


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Blister
post Feb 1 2013, 04:36 AM
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Though the topic is a bit over my head, I just had to say that I really love that lick! smile.gif

And welcome to GMC!

This post has been edited by Blister: Feb 1 2013, 04:37 AM


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Jonas Tamas
post Feb 1 2013, 07:38 AM
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QUOTE (Blister @ Feb 1 2013, 03:36 AM) *
Though the topic is a bit over my head, I just had to say that I really love that lick! smile.gif

And welcome to GMC!


Thanks so much! smile.gif It's a great feeling to be here at GMC!


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Cosmin Lupu
post Feb 1 2013, 10:28 AM
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here's a rhythmic motif which repeats itself in various ways that I found in my playing - these are two lessons based on parts from a song I perform with my band, Days of Confusion:

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Metal-Metrics-2/

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Metal-Metrics-3/

If you listen to these two you will see that the verse pattern repeats itself in the second lesson as a breakdown smile.gif



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Jonas Tamas
post Feb 1 2013, 06:47 PM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Feb 1 2013, 09:28 AM) *
here's a rhythmic motif which repeats itself in various ways that I found in my playing - these are two lessons based on parts from a song I perform with my band, Days of Confusion:

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Metal-Metrics-2/

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Metal-Metrics-3/

If you listen to these two you will see that the verse pattern repeats itself in the second lesson as a breakdown smile.gif



Thanks for the suggestion Cosmin, both lessons are great, I love those tight rhythms! Metal-Metrics-2 would be appropriate on a Meshuggah album too, and Metal-Metrics-3 has a bit of a Katatonia feel to it. Great stuff.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Feb 2 2013, 09:07 AM
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Hey man thanks a bunch! We love those bands biggrin.gif Just seen Meshuggah in Bucharest last year and I was dumbstruck - they sound like a huge machine live!


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Jonas Tamas
post Feb 2 2013, 06:49 PM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Feb 2 2013, 08:07 AM) *
Hey man thanks a bunch! We love those bands biggrin.gif Just seen Meshuggah in Bucharest last year and I was dumbstruck - they sound like a huge machine live!


It must have been a breathtaking experience seeing them playing those brutal riffs live:)


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