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klasaine
post Feb 17 2013, 07:09 PM
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5/4 for sure (but I love how the drums keeps it on 2 and 4 as much as possible).
not positive about the mode yet.


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DeGroot
post Feb 17 2013, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Feb 17 2013, 11:58 AM) *
How bout this one? And the time signature is also interesting smile.gif



My guess for modes are:

E Aeolian

then @ 1:15 shifts into E Ionian to G Ionian ?


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klasaine
post Feb 18 2013, 02:53 AM
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I'm with DeGroot - Aeolian(?)
The Cmaj7#11 gives it up.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Feb 18 2013, 10:25 AM
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Right! Both mode and time signature! So, who will continue? Ken or DG? biggrin.gif


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DeGroot
post Feb 18 2013, 07:15 PM
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I'll go ahead, if Ken doesn't mind, to keep the thread rolling.

I was surprised when I figured out what mode this piece is in.






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klasaine
post Feb 18 2013, 08:16 PM
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The Opeth is in F minor and uses both E natural and Eb.
I'd like to say that it's the 'Baroque' application of Melodic Minor (asc mel. min/desc nat. min) but I don't hear any Db.
I don't know - you got me.


Next ...

The solo from 1:02 to 2:58 (guitar and violin)



There is more than one correct answer (as far as the 'root' is concerned) because the chords are a little ambiguous/deceptive. Also the second change has an 'out' note in it though the soloists rarely (if ever?) hit that note. They stay in the mode 99% of the time. The violin solo simplifies the mode even further (Jean Luc Ponty).

This post has been edited by klasaine: Feb 18 2013, 09:34 PM


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DeGroot
post Feb 18 2013, 10:13 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Feb 18 2013, 07:16 PM) *
The Opeth is in F minor and uses both E natural and Eb.
I'd like to say that it's the 'Baroque' application of Melodic Minor (asc mel. min/desc nat. min) but I don't hear any Db.
I don't know - you got me.


I came up with F Harmonic minor (with the E natural) for the majority. But now I'm a stumped with the Eb. Possibly switching between Harmonic and natural minor mode? If someone has a final conclusion it would be appreciated. smile.gif




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klasaine
post Feb 18 2013, 11:08 PM
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That's why I say 'classical' melodic minor.
The trad mel.min. ascends F G Ab Bb C D E F and descends F Eb Db C Bb Ab G F (which is natural minor or Aeolian).

*The reason is because when you descend melodic minor it doesn't 'sound' like a minor scale until you hit the Ab (thinking backwards, the 6th scale tone) - it's the same as a major scale until that point descending.

Actually, in the case of the Opeth, I would guess that it's really not 'mode' or scale specific - just general F minor because he plays Bb major and C major chords so there's no Db at all (the 3rd of a Bb minor chord) which is the better indicator of both natural and harmonic minor - IMO.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Feb 18 2013, 11:44 PM


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DeGroot
post Feb 19 2013, 09:12 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Feb 18 2013, 07:16 PM) *
The Opeth is in F minor and uses both E natural and Eb.
I'd like to say that it's the 'Baroque' application of Melodic Minor (asc mel. min/desc nat. min) but I don't hear any Db.
I don't know - you got me.


Next ...

The solo from 1:02 to 2:58 (guitar and violin)



There is more than one correct answer (as far as the 'root' is concerned) because the chords are a little ambiguous/deceptive. Also the second change has an 'out' note in it though the soloists rarely (if ever?) hit that note. They stay in the mode 99% of the time. The violin solo simplifies the mode even further (Jean Luc Ponty).


Thanks for the explanation on the Opeth piece.

So, my guess for Mahavishnu Orchestra is F# Mixolydian ?



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klasaine
post Feb 19 2013, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE (DeGroot @ Feb 19 2013, 08:12 AM) *
So, my guess for Mahavishnu Orchestra is F# Mixolydian ?

Yes sir, that works.
Though the 'home' key is C# dorian, F# mixo has all the same notes.
The two chords you hear bouncing back and forth are C#m9 and D#m.
McLaughlin anchors on B major a lot and plays major/ionian sounding lines - at least to me(?). Luc Ponty squarely sits in C#m and plays a lot of C#m pentatonic lines.

*The out or off mode note in the accompaniment is in the middle of the D#m chord. There's an F natural (E#) in there in the middle register of the chord making it a D#m9 (parallel voicing with the C#m9 - common modal jazz thing).
x x 13 9 9 x to x x 15 11 11 x
(and it's in 5/4)

This post has been edited by klasaine: Feb 19 2013, 04:13 PM


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DeGroot
post Feb 19 2013, 06:21 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Feb 19 2013, 03:12 PM) *
Yes sir, that works.
Though the 'home' key is C# dorian, F# mixo has all the same notes.
The two chords you hear bouncing back and forth are C#m9 and D#m.
McLaughlin anchors on B major a lot and plays major/ionian sounding lines - at least to me(?). Luc Ponty squarely sits in C#m and plays a lot of C#m pentatonic lines.

*The out or off mode note in the accompaniment is in the middle of the D#m chord. There's an F natural (E#) in there in the middle register of the chord making it a D#m9 (parallel voicing with the C#m9 - common modal jazz thing).
x x 13 9 9 x to x x 15 11 11 x
(and it's in 5/4)


I was debating between the two modes. My gut feeling was initially C# dorian (with the ii chord in B major) and then I changed my answer. The McLaughlin solo just gave me a Mixolydian vibe at moments. It is interesting to see this with a thorough break down. cool.gif


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klasaine
post Feb 19 2013, 07:16 PM
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That's a good observation regarding JM's dominant 7th 'feel'.
McLaughlin definitely seems to like the dom7 sound and 'adjusts' his orientation accordingly - i.e., intervallic playing that spells F#7 as opposed to C#m. Many improvising musicians do that - especially the jazz players. The guitarist Pat Martino had a period where he converted everything he could to dorian (example: F7 = C dorian ... Am7b5 = C dorian ... Ebmaj7#11 = C dorian, etc.) *And it works BEAUTIFULLY!
Caveat - you do need to know what your key center actually is though.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Feb 20 2013, 06:32 PM


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Cosmin Lupu
post Feb 27 2013, 02:52 PM
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Alright gents, I'll add another biggrin.gif



Guess the mode! biggrin.gif


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klasaine
post Feb 27 2013, 06:17 PM
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Lydian/Dominant - 4th mode of the melodic minor scale.

*When I learned it in the late 70s we called it the 'overtone' scale because the #4 and the b7 are the naturally occurring overtones. In South Indian Classical music it's called Vachaspathi.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Feb 27 2013, 11:19 PM
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Awesome smile.gif Bart Simpson Morning Raga? biggrin.gif

I was sure you would nail this instantly, but I couldn't resist posting it - what do you have in the trick bag for us, Ken?


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Cosmin Lupu
post Mar 11 2013, 03:57 PM
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Time for a new one!



I got no clue on this, so I thought that maybe someone who is experienced in this sort of music will tell biggrin.gif


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klasaine
post Mar 12 2013, 03:21 AM
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Wow! Good one. No real idea, I'm totally out of my league here but this is what it 'sounds' like to me ...

I don't think it's one specific mode. Here's why ...
It's a more recent ensemble (duo in this case) playing this version of a traditional piece. The ensemble is called Zumi Kai, a group that 'stretches' the tradition apparently - ?
Having said that, once they settle in it sounds to my western ears like G phryg sans the Bb (it's called G in-sen sometimes - G Ab C D Eb G) but at about 6:00 they shift to A for awhile, then back.

Really beautiful!

This post has been edited by klasaine: Mar 12 2013, 06:38 AM


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Cosmin Lupu
post Mar 12 2013, 09:08 AM
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So in-sen biggrin.gif I thought so too but I also thought I should ask first tongue.gif

I have been playing around with in-sen, hirajoshi, yona nuki and 2-3 more Japanese scales as well - btw, this is a track over which I'm practicing battojutsu techniques - it's very inspiring and well written in order for me to immerse myself in that state of mind. Do you know other pieces like this? smile.gif


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klasaine
post Mar 12 2013, 04:56 PM
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I don't know anything about Japanese music. Just 'the most basic' of stuff (like In-Sen) that's been co-opted and worked into Western music. Jazzers in the mid 60s like Wayne Shorter and McCoy Tyner adopted using In-sen a lot (as a simpler replacement for phryg mostly).
When it's done traditionally, as in your example, there's all the 1/4 tones and 'just' temperament that makes it uniquely beautiful.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Mar 12 2013, 11:34 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Mar 12 2013, 03:56 PM) *
I don't know anything about Japanese music. Just 'the most basic' of stuff (like In-Sen) that's been co-opted and worked into Western music. Jazzers in the mid 60s like Wayne Shorter and McCoy Tyner adopted using In-sen a lot (as a simpler replacement for phryg mostly).
When it's done traditionally, as in your example, there's all the 1/4 tones and 'just' temperament that makes it uniquely beautiful.


Thanks man, no problem, I'll keep searching smile.gif

How about you throw a new one? .. And I won't answer this time biggrin.gif I'll let someone else do it, I promise!


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