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> Need Recording Help, amp simulators vst
ItSME3
post Feb 16 2013, 01:20 AM
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I like the brittle sound of slightly breaking up boutique style amps (cornford for example) and want to emulate it with some vsts. For my singer songwriter stuff I usually use my Tech21 hardware that has built in speaker emulation. However that only works well for clean sounds. When it comes to electric guitar playing I am more on the beginners side of thigs and therefore also not too experienced with software amp emulators. I have the latest guitarrig and revalver mkIII but cant get the sound I want. Right now I play around with one of the lepous. And the lepous Lecab2.

http://lepouplugins.blogspot.de/2010/02/lextac.html



Do you have some other ideas or tricks ? I am looking for some dynamic, treble biased sound

Thanks for your help

This post has been edited by ItSME3: Feb 17 2013, 06:05 PM
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ItSME3
post Feb 16 2013, 12:44 PM
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any tricks for a good clean sound ? with a bit of break up

Amp modeler vst, impulse response loader ?

Do you think LeCab2 is up to par with the cab simulators in guitarrig or other comercial products ?

How do you make your "cleaner" lead sounds come alive ? Effects: how to use Chorus, Delay, Reverb etc. ?

could you post some sound samples and perhaps some presets ?

Thanks for your help
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Saoirse O'Shea
post Feb 17 2013, 10:56 AM
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Can't help wth the emulator as i don't use them.

Making the clean sound come alive...

I'd say a lot of it is about maintaining good dynamics and some subtle use of chorus/delay. Keep good dynamics and gainstage properly: you really shouldn't be peaking much above -6dBFS here for a single track and quite possibly as low as -12. You can get the level brought up properly at mastering. A lot of people seem to overdo the chorus/delay and the whole thing ends up sounding too washy. With the clean sound with a little break up again some people over do the distortion. Usually for a mix 'less is more'. Distortion often fills up the frequency spectrum and you can easily end up with mud. Back off the distortion and look at cleaning up the mud and any unwanted resonant frequencies particularly in the low/mid mid range.

Starting settings for a chorus for guitar:
20-30% wet ( low settings will make it less washy)
20ms L/25ms R
10% mod depth
.5 Hz mod rate
10-20% feedback

Pan the effects return far L and R

If it's too subtle increase the wet, the L R delay times and the modulation rate.


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ItSME3
post Feb 17 2013, 01:04 PM
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Hi and thanks a lot for your tips

About the stereo chorus setting: the 5 ms delta between left and right creates more depth ?

I often use a reverb as insert in the mono track and then this signal goes to the send. is it better to put the reverb somewhere else or use a second send and then place the returns for chorus and reverb or delay at different parts of the stereo field ?



QUOTE (tonymiro @ Feb 17 2013, 10:56 AM) *
Can't help wth the emulator as i don't use them.

Making the clean sound come alive...

I'd say a lot of it is about maintaining good dynamics and some subtle use of chorus/delay. Keep good dynamics and gainstage properly: you really shouldn't be peaking much above -6dBFS here for a single track and quite possibly as low as -12. You can get the level brought up properly at mastering. A lot of people seem to overdo the chorus/delay and the whole thing ends up sounding too washy. With the clean sound with a little break up again some people over do the distortion. Usually for a mix 'less is more'. Distortion often fills up the frequency spectrum and you can easily end up with mud. Back off the distortion and look at cleaning up the mud and any unwanted resonant frequencies particularly in the low/mid mid range.

Starting settings for a chorus for guitar:
20-30% wet ( low settings will make it less washy)
20ms L/25ms R
10% mod depth
.5 Hz mod rate
10-20% feedback

Pan the effects return far L and R

If it's too subtle increase the wet, the L R delay times and the modulation rate.
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ItSME3
post Feb 17 2013, 05:10 PM
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hmmm I used your chorus settings and the sound is much bigger now and also a bit "rounder"

https://soundcloud.com/itsme3-1/clean-sound-stevie-ray-vaughan

I also found great impulse responses that sound spectacular

This post has been edited by ItSME3: Feb 17 2013, 05:13 PM
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Gabriel Leopardi
post Feb 17 2013, 10:24 PM
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Good clean tone! What type of distorted tone would you like to get?


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Feb 18 2013, 10:26 AM
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QUOTE (ItSME3 @ Feb 17 2013, 12:04 PM) *
Hi and thanks a lot for your tips

About the stereo chorus setting: the 5 ms delta between left and right creates more depth ?

yes it helps to.

QUOTE
I often use a reverb as insert in the mono track and then this signal goes to the send. is it better to put the reverb somewhere else or use a second send and then place the returns for chorus and reverb or delay at different parts of the stereo field ?


The normal way is to put the reverb on the aux send. This dates back to the use of hardware reverbs which were expensive and studios often only had one or two units. Putting it on the aux send allowed you to bus multiple tracks to the reverb instead of it sitting only on a specific track. In a DAW you can of course run multiple vst reverbs (assuming your pc can handle the load). If you want to use reverb as a specific effect on an individual track you can then put it on an insert. Reverb on an insert can be particularly useful to add depth only to a mono track.

One disadvantage of placing reverbs on the insert (apart from pc load) is that the effect is prefader whilstif its on a aux send you can place it pre or post . A downside of using the aux send/return is that the routing setup is more complicated than using insert. One other thing to think about is that the aux return are usually quite basic, often level and mute and maybe some simple eq but usually little else. If you need to do more processing, for instance pan the return signal, then you take each signal from out of the aux send indivdiual back in to the top of their own mono track strip and not the aux return.

Ultimately how you set up depends on what you want to do and what the limitations and facilities on you desk/daw and hardware/vsts are.


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Get your music professionally mastered by anl AES registered Mastering Engineer. Contact me for Audio Mastering Services and Advice and visit our website www.miromastering.com

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ItSME3
post Feb 18 2013, 04:21 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Feb 17 2013, 10:24 PM) *
Good clean tone! What type of distorted tone would you like to get?



For a lead tone I like Greg Howes fusion style sounds. Pretty much like the clean tones I like. Lots of high mids and bright treble spectrum. Not too much gain and just a bit of delay. On my real tube amp I get something in that direction but the emulators never satisfy me. I will post something tonight I made with the same Lepou model.

You have a huge tone in all your vids (great tone for example in the avenged sevefold lesson) so I guess on top of your awesome playing the PodHD just sounds really good. Do you use plug in simulators too ? Do you have tricks for those




QUOTE (tonymiro @ Feb 18 2013, 10:26 AM) *
yes it helps to.



The normal way is to put the reverb on the aux send. This dates back to the use of hardware reverbs which were expensive and studios often only had one or two units. Putting it on the aux send allowed you to bus multiple tracks to the reverb instead of it sitting only on a specific track. In a DAW you can of course run multiple vst reverbs (assuming your pc can handle the load). If you want to use reverb as a specific effect on an individual track you can then put it on an insert. Reverb on an insert can be particularly useful to add depth only to a mono track.

One disadvantage of placing reverbs on the insert (apart from pc load) is that the effect is prefader whilstif its on a aux send you can place it pre or post . A downside of using the aux send/return is that the routing setup is more complicated than using insert. One other thing to think about is that the aux return are usually quite basic, often level and mute and maybe some simple eq but usually little else. If you need to do more processing, for instance pan the return signal, then you take each signal from out of the aux send indivdiual back in to the top of their own mono track strip and not the aux return.

Ultimately how you set up depends on what you want to do and what the limitations and facilities on you desk/daw and hardware/vsts are.



Usually I put the reverb in the aux send when I have groups or guitars or most always I use a reverb in the aux for the vocals. But with single mono tracks of guitars I use the verbs as inserts.
But I like it in the aux and then load a eq as insert in the aux bus to shelf off the low end of the reverb. I only have crappy verbs and therefore most always need to extra EQ them. Do you have good recs for a verb that is in a pricerange below 100 Euros.

THanks much for all your help



This post has been edited by ItSME3: Feb 18 2013, 04:22 PM
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Gabriel Leopardi
post Feb 18 2013, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (ItSME3 @ Feb 18 2013, 12:21 PM) *
For a lead tone I like Greg Howes fusion style sounds. Pretty much like the clean tones I like. Lots of high mids and bright treble spectrum. Not too much gain and just a bit of delay. On my real tube amp I get something in that direction but the emulators never satisfy me. I will post something tonight I made with the same Lepou model.

You have a huge tone in all your vids (great tone for example in the avenged sevefold lesson) so I guess on top of your awesome playing the PodHD just sounds really good. Do you use plug in simulators too ? Do you have tricks for those


Well, I use Pod HD 500 for all my lessons. My favourite amp is the Treadplate which emulates Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier. My tone is basically based on that head, the cabinet (4x12 with Celestion V30). I usually add a tubescreamer when I need some more gain for solos. For rhythm guitar, I record two takes and pan them, one to the left and the other to the right. I rarely use plug ins for lessons or recording demo tracks. My favourites are Amplitube and Revalver. I think that Revalver's mesa boogie emulation and Peavey 6505 are really good for metal.


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Feb 19 2013, 09:51 AM
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QUOTE (ItSME3 @ Feb 18 2013, 03:21 PM) *
... I only have crappy verbs and therefore most always need to extra EQ them. Do you have good recs for a verb that is in a pricerange below 100 Euros.

THanks much for all your help


Sorry but I can't think of a good one below 100 Euros. With reverbs you tend to get what you pay for even with vsts. If you can stretch the budget a bit more there's the SIR2 convolution reverb here and the 112dB Redline here. Both of those are ok albeit not as good as a Lexicon or Eventide or Bicasti.

If you can't stretch the budget then my best suggestion is to keep the reverb down in the mix and keep it simple and as natural as possible.


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Get your music professionally mastered by anl AES registered Mastering Engineer. Contact me for Audio Mastering Services and Advice and visit our website www.miromastering.com

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We use professional, mastering grade hardware in our mastering studo. Our hardware includes:
Cranesong Avocet II Monitor Controller, Dangerous Music Liasion Insert Hardware Router, ATC SCM Pro Monitors, Lavry Black DA11, Prism Orpheus ADC/DAC, Gyratec Gyraf XIV Parallel Passive Mastering EQ, Great River MAQ 2NV Mastering EQ, Kush Clariphonic Parallel EQ Shelf, Maselec MLA-2 Mastering Compressor, API 2500 Mastering Compressor, Eventide Eclipse Reverb/Echo.
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ItSME3
post Feb 19 2013, 12:02 PM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ Feb 19 2013, 09:51 AM) *
Sorry but I can't think of a good one below 100 Euros. With reverbs you tend to get what you pay for even with vsts. If you can stretch the budget a bit more there's the SIR2 convolution reverb here and the 112dB Redline here. Both of those are ok albeit not as good as a Lexicon or Eventide or Bicasti.

If you can't stretch the budget then my best suggestion is to keep the reverb down in the mix and keep it simple and as natural as possible.



I use PerfectSPace from my Cakewalk and Pristine Space from Voxengo for Vocals usually but they always become muddy. So I EQ the a lot. Never happy with. Do you think a mix like this would sound better just with differnt reverbs

https://soundcloud.com/alone-in-boston/shine-on-me-alone-in-boston

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Todd Simpson
post Feb 20 2013, 07:41 AM
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It sounds like perhaps you could benefit from constructing your own "Channel strips" out of some nice VSTs. Good news! THere is a site where you can download and use FREE VST plugins that all work well together. Each is a Rackmount looking interface and there is a nice Reverb.

http://antress.blogspot.com/

E.g. Source>E.Q.>Compressor>Reverb (as a sample channel strip)

Also here is a site with NOTHING BUT FREE REVERB VSTS!!!!! A whole wad of them smile.gif

http://www.sadglad.com/reverb.html


The great thing about VSTs for home recording is that the FREE ones have a very low cost of entry smile.gif And you can try several before settling on the one you like. Trying to replicate that experience in hardware would probably drive you to the poor house. Good reverbs are not "cheap". Some are reasonable, but you may need more than one if you want to have different reverb settings on different channels. Thats why studios used to have racks full of reverbs. You can use one setting and an Aux send to wet up the track, but then all the tracks have the same setting for reverb. It's quite limiting and expensive and a big part of the reason home recording folks use software instead. smile.gif

Todd


QUOTE (ItSME3 @ Feb 19 2013, 06:02 AM) *
I use PerfectSPace from my Cakewalk and Pristine Space from Voxengo for Vocals usually but they always become muddy. So I EQ the a lot. Never happy with. Do you think a mix like this would sound better just with differnt reverbs

https://soundcloud.com/alone-in-boston/shine-on-me-alone-in-boston



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Saoirse O'Shea
post Feb 20 2013, 09:49 AM
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QUOTE (ItSME3 @ Feb 19 2013, 11:02 AM) *
I use PerfectSPace from my Cakewalk and Pristine Space from Voxengo for Vocals usually but they always become muddy. So I EQ the a lot. Never happy with. Do you think a mix like this would sound better just with differnt reverbs

https://soundcloud.com/alone-in-boston/shine-on-me-alone-in-boston


Sorry but I rarely listen to and comment on streamed audio. Personally I don't like lots of different reverb types as it often ends up with a mix that is ill defined. That's not to say that you opnlhy use one, you can use more just be careful.

If it helps a couple of general comments with reverb - I don't have ither of your two reverbs so can't be more specific. If it's adding mud then you may well be using a reverb type with not enough predelay and that has too many late reflections . If you mix the reverb with the original to soon (not enough predelay) then the result can lose clarity. With the predelay it needs to be long enough so that it doesn't distort and colour the timbre of the vocal/instrument but long enough so that it sounds natural (if natural is what you want). If you can try lengethening the pre to somewhere between 30-60ms (experiment to see what works best). Too short and you lose clarity, too long and the delay between the original and the reverb becomes too obvious. The late reflections/reverb tail usually contains so many reflections that it's more like a single dense block of sound than a set of clearly identifiable signals. If the level of the reverb is too high relative to the original then you can get problems. The level you need depends on the delay time of the reverb so again you need to experiement a bit.

If you are stil having problems with mud than put a HPF before the reverb to reduce the low frequency content going in to the reverb. EQ post reverb is more to sit the reverb in the mix than correct issues. Post reverb the high frequencies help add sparkle but too much tends to sound unnatural. If you want a more transparent sound then you may need to attenuate the high frequencies but if you attenuate a lot it can result in a dark or mellow type sound. Low frequencies make the mix sound warmer and bigger, so boosting the low frequencies here can help if that's what you want.


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Get your music professionally mastered by anl AES registered Mastering Engineer. Contact me for Audio Mastering Services and Advice and visit our website www.miromastering.com

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