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> My Amp Setup And Micing, got a 2nd condensor mic
dcz702
post May 22 2013, 03:14 AM
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hey guys, so i added a audio technica at2050 to my amp, i will also use for vocals but mainly bought it for to mic my cab. so i turned my horizontal mesa cab on its side to get one speaker off the ground and get rid of the exessive low end that was coming from the floor. here is a pic of my mic placement. is this a good idea or should i buy a stand to elevate my amp and turn it horizontal for better micing and sound? is the sm57 mic gonna pic up unwanted low end so close to the floor?
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dcz702
post May 22 2013, 11:05 AM
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so to continue the disscusion about the rec here, Darius the pic you see is how it was set up while recording. the tips about out of phase i will do on the next take i do to check everything.
i made a mistake while mixing, here is the proccess i use for audio and vid
i record into logic while quiktime pro records i sometimes do 3 or four takes but i leave quiktime pro recording and it captures all takes in one video. when im satified that the last take is good enough i import the video to logic, then i import audio from the video. at that point i have 3 guitar tracks, one for mic 1, one for mic2, and one from the video that was imported, the improted audio from quiktime i mute. now in logic sice i did 3 takes the video timeline is longer since it was rolling the whole time. then i drag my rec take and backing track to match the last take of the video ( the imported audio from quiktime looks exactly like the audio recorded from the mics and when i drag to match the video is perfectly matched, then i just cut and trime everything i dont need out. pretty simple and fast just sounds confusing

on the rec i just did, when i dragged the 3 track, back , mic1, mic2, i accidently draged that backtrack out of alingment, i thought, im pretty sure i brought it back to where i should be, but mabe not. do you think this may have caused out of phase?

also i didnt know wich one to do, when micing with 2 mics do i make a new track for bnoth mics or one stereo track for both mics? i recorded last rec by giving each mic its own track (mic 1- input1, mic2-input2) i did this cause i though it could edit and mix each mic seperatly) but im thinking that using both mics for one stereo track would be better?

This post has been edited by dcz702: May 22 2013, 11:15 AM
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jstcrsn
post May 22 2013, 12:24 PM
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QUOTE (dcz702 @ May 22 2013, 11:05 AM) *
so to continue the disscusion about the rec here, Darius the pic you see is how it was set up while recording. the tips about out of phase i will do on the next take i do to check everything.
i made a mistake while mixing, here is the proccess i use for audio and vid
i record into logic while quiktime pro records i sometimes do 3 or four takes but i leave quiktime pro recording and it captures all takes in one video. when im satified that the last take is good enough i import the video to logic, then i import audio from the video. at that point i have 3 guitar tracks, one for mic 1, one for mic2, and one from the video that was imported, the improted audio from quiktime i mute. now in logic sice i did 3 takes the video timeline is longer since it was rolling the whole time. then i drag my rec take and backing track to match the last take of the video ( the imported audio from quiktime looks exactly like the audio recorded from the mics and when i drag to match the video is perfectly matched, then i just cut and trime everything i dont need out. pretty simple and fast just sounds confusing

on the rec i just did, when i dragged the 3 track, back , mic1, mic2, i accidently draged that backtrack out of alingment, i thought, im pretty sure i brought it back to where i should be, but mabe not. do you think this may have caused out of phase?

also i didnt know wich one to do, when micing with 2 mics do i make a new track for bnoth mics or one stereo track for both mics? i recorded last rec by giving each mic its own track (mic 1- input1, mic2-input2) i did this cause i though it could edit and mix each mic seperatly) but im thinking that using both mics for one stereo track would be better?

sorry to jump in, if you are getting to much bass- I would try smaller speakers with less bass response- like a 2/12 cab
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dcz702
post May 22 2013, 12:38 PM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ May 22 2013, 11:24 AM) *
sorry to jump in, if you are getting to much bass- I would try smaller speakers with less bass response- like a 2/12 cab

It's cool jump in anytime I like the responses always learn something. smile.gif I'm using a 212 mesa rectifier cab turned on its side.
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jstcrsn
post May 22 2013, 01:12 PM
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QUOTE (dcz702 @ May 22 2013, 12:38 PM) *
It's cool jump in anytime I like the responses always learn something. smile.gif I'm using a 212 mesa rectifier cab turned on its side.

my bad , thought it looked like 2/15's, moving mic's to the outside increases bass
I would record twice,once with the mic inside and out to try to find the sweet spot, get it off the floor, but not with a solid stand that will transmit the lows, of course solid enough it doesn't fall wink.gif ,and spend time with your E.Q. after recording figuring how to add or subtract tones
learning your eq takes time like learning your guitar
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Darius Wave
post May 22 2013, 01:25 PM
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Ok so...

Tracks with the same audio material has to be perfectly synchronized otherwise there will always be phase problems.

I know it's hard to make a perfect synchro in some video editors (synchronizing cam audio and DAW audio...like mentioned backing track). Then it's better to just mute the audio from a video file and leave ONLY the audio mixed in the DAW or....do the 3 audio track (including the one imported from the video) synchro in Daw and than synchronize to video.


If You use two differents mics in different positions and different distances from the cab there are some phase issues for sure but those can be corrected by manually moving the drawing with a huge zoom in on the track or by the tools like phasebug plug-in. Phase problems come when one mic gets the signal in a very tiny measure of time earlier than the second mic. If the positive part of the sinusoid meets the negative, we feel the loss of low end.

Best way to check it out is to play both tracks mono (center Pan) and listen. If one track standalone has more low end than both played together it's a phase issue for shure.

To be honest...phase issues comes with most of the recorded track when using more than one mic, but not always affect the mix as much.


In theory both mics should be in the exactly same distance from the sound source (guitar cab) But...in practice it's not that simple. First mic "listens" mostly to the speaker directly in front of it but anyway it get a bit of second speaker signal too. We can also add the room reflections factor - they reach ech of the mic in different time.

Above issues were a reason of creating XY method for recording overheads. Also when recording live drums It's very often a must to:
1. Reverse the phase of snare bottom mic (a must!)
2. Fit the snare drum track (move) to the snare bits in overheads.
3. Same with bass drum.
and some more...


When You have a ready mix made in DAW and synchronize this to the audio from video...than You can easily get some phase issue. Of course...as long as the audio from video file will be NOT MUTED when rendering.

Could You post only the guitar+backing audio You made directly from DAW? There is a possibility that the phase issue came only after rendering with video.

Phase issue between mics can be not as bad, as it seems to be in the rec take video. I would also consider trying to get both mic very close to each other with exactly the same distance from the cone.


Making independent mono tracks for each mic is a better option - You can always fix the phase in DAW.

See the pictures:
Attached Image - IN PHASE
Attached Image - OUT OF PHASE

Audio drawing / wave drawing from both mics should look similar. You have take a look if the wave sinusoid goes down, smae thing should happen in the same moment on the another mic drawing.


This post has been edited by Darius Wave: May 22 2013, 01:42 PM


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Amp360
post May 22 2013, 04:02 PM
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There are a few things I would add.

1- Sometimes using two mics (room mic) on a guitar amp doesn't work that well. It's more about the delay between when your signal hits the close mic and the second mic. In some (not all) cases this can muddy up your track - especially when you're layering guitars.

2- If you're getting too much bass there are a few things you can try. The first thing I would do would be to move your cab away from the wall. After that you may want to try listening to the room mic on its own, because depending on the shape of your room, where the cab/mic is, etc... this can cause bass build up.

3- Add a low cut filter. When I mix a track I low cut a lot of things - even things I can't hear any difference on.


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klasaine
post May 22 2013, 04:25 PM
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You can also move the mic away from the speaker. You'll hear or read the term 'proximity effect'. It usually refers to moving a mic closer in to a speaker to get more low end.

As for phasing problems, as long as it's on two separate tracks, many times you can slide one of the tracks forward (or backward) in time by 4 to 8 ms and take care of that.

http://suite101.com/article/recording-elec...le-mics-a288628
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr08/arti...demystified.htm
http://www.mojaveaudio.com/recordingtips.html


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Darius Wave
post May 23 2013, 12:04 PM
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Yep I agree....High Pass Filter is a must to get rid of boomy low end. Also good point about the wall and the situation when cab is directly on the wall. Buy some foam and try to keep it isolated. As You can see most of us agree that the tone is a matter of experiments. There are just a few "hard rules" that were mentioned here. Avoid the corners, walls, cab with floor contact and always check the phase bwteen two mics. I think that's a summary of what every one try to say smile.gif


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Todd Simpson
post May 24 2013, 01:26 AM
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Quick and dirty way to decrease bass hitting the mic is to move the mic back a bit, away from the cab. The "Proximity Effect" happens when you put mics close to cones. On a mesa, or orange, it can lead to OVER BASS. The condenser has GREAT bass response, so you may have to back him off.

The other mic, try putting directly in the middle on the center of the speaker on axis (dead on not angled) and pull back the bass eq on your head. There is your "playing tone" and then there is your "recording tone", in the home studio world these are often different do to physical limitations in a home studio. In a big commercial facility, they would go to the mic closet and get the MESA mic of choice with a rolloff filter built in to it. In the home studio world, you usually have to just pull the mic back, and turn the bass down.


Todd

QUOTE (dcz702 @ May 21 2013, 10:14 PM) *
hey guys, so i added a audio technica at2050 to my amp, i will also use for vocals but mainly bought it for to mic my cab. so i turned my horizontal mesa cab on its side to get one speaker off the ground and get rid of the exessive low end that was coming from the floor. here is a pic of my mic placement. is this a good idea or should i buy a stand to elevate my amp and turn it horizontal for better micing and sound? is the sm57 mic gonna pic up unwanted low end so close to the floor?



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deeaa
post May 28 2013, 07:31 AM
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Great replies already!

Yeah phase issues are funky, but with modern DAWs they're easy to play around with, by dragging the tracks around.

A good old trick for finding the sound you want is take a kitchen roll and put the tube over yer ear and point it to the speaker (you'll have to have someone play the amp tho) and move it around, see where you like the sound the best. Just try to be quick about it so as not to blow yer ear out :-)

I often found my best tones miking a little farther away from the cab, like a bit above it maybe 2 feet off, but also a condenser right about at the grille and the middle of the cone and a 57 1" off the edge of the cone right next to it sounds good to me.

These days, I usually just use a software plugin though. Better sounds with more ease.


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