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> Bending With Eb Tuning
Headbanger
post Jun 3 2013, 09:12 PM
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QUOTE (thefireball @ Jun 3 2013, 10:06 PM) *
Here is what you are asking: no you don't actually bend any farther. The string is being bent the same distance whether you are in standard e or standard eb. It's the same distance no matter what.


Wow...if thats true then thanks! Did you find that info somewhere? smile.gif


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thefireball
post Jun 3 2013, 09:15 PM
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QUOTE (Headbanger @ Jun 3 2013, 02:12 PM) *
Wow...if thats true then thanks! Did you find that info somewhere? smile.gif

Haha no laugh.gif it seems logical to me


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Headbanger
post Jun 3 2013, 10:07 PM
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QUOTE (thefireball @ Jun 3 2013, 10:15 PM) *
Haha no laugh.gif it seems logical to me


Oh..I was hoping for something a bit more scientifically proven! laugh.gif


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dcz702
post Jun 3 2013, 10:29 PM
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i play in standard and 1/2 down equally, i still have problems in both tuning to reach correct pitch. on my guitars i notice that the flat tuning guitar has less tension and it feels easier to bend and i can easily bend to much and go sharp. i have been practising bends to different pitches on there own, like playing scales and bending 1/2 and full steps on both standard and flat tuned guitars,
i think its not a matter of knowing how far to bend the string its more of a matter of listening to the bend and hearing the pitch your bending to, and i do this by trying to train my ear my acctually fretting the note, ( say i want to bend to A from the 15th fret, first i fret at the 17th and listen then its in my head i then do the bend at the 15th full step and liten for the correct pitch, and repeat this over and over all over the fret board
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Headbanger
post Jun 3 2013, 10:39 PM
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QUOTE (dcz702 @ Jun 3 2013, 11:29 PM) *
i play in standard and 1/2 down equally, i still have problems in both tuning to reach correct pitch. on my guitars i notice that the flat tuning guitar has less tension and it feels easier to bend and i can easily bend to much and go sharp. i have been practising bends to different pitches on there own, like playing scales and bending 1/2 and full steps on both standard and flat tuned guitars,
i think its not a matter of knowing how far to bend the string its more of a matter of listening to the bend and hearing the pitch your bending to, and i do this by trying to train my ear my acctually fretting the note, ( say i want to bend to A from the 15th fret, first i fret at the 17th and listen then its in my head i then do the bend at the 15th full step and liten for the correct pitch, and repeat this over and over all over the fret board


I agree with you I do the exactly same. I also agree with you that in order to play its not a matter of how far to bend. My question is different though...it was a scientific one.


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AK Rich
post Jun 4 2013, 06:47 AM
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Somehow I doubt you will ever find an answer to this question without conducting your own experiments. Because with all due respect and no insult intended I just think that the question is irrelevant to achieving the correct pitch while performing a bend.
However, I can tell you one thing that affects the distance a string needs to be bent in order to achieve say a full step bend and that is whether or not you have a fixed bridge or a floating bridge such as a tremolo, the reason being is that the springs on the tremolo stretch along with the string, therefore the physical distance needed to bend that whole step would have to be greater than that on a fixed bridge. And from experience I can tell you it is. But that distance varies depending on how many springs and how much tension the springs provide.
If I had to guess if there was any difference in the distance needed to bend a given string to achieve that full step bend on guitars with 2 different tunings such as E standard or Eb standard and both guitars having a fixed bridge,and with the same scale length neck. I would have to agree with The Fireball on this one and say the distance would be the same. And that any given bend with an Eb tuning takes less effort than the same bend with an E standard tuning on strings of the same gauge.
Don't forget to use the same scale length necks, or use the same guitar when conducting your experiment for each tuning if you choose to do so, and come back and tell us what results you come up with! smile.gif Because now I am curious as well! biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by AK Rich: Jun 4 2013, 06:50 AM
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Headbanger
post Jun 4 2013, 09:07 AM
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QUOTE (AK Rich @ Jun 4 2013, 07:47 AM) *
Somehow I doubt you will ever find an answer to this question without conducting your own experiments. Because with all due respect and no insult intended I just think that the question is irrelevant to achieving the correct pitch while performing a bend.
However, I can tell you one thing that affects the distance a string needs to be bent in order to achieve say a full step bend and that is whether or not you have a fixed bridge or a floating bridge such as a tremolo, the reason being is that the springs on the tremolo stretch along with the string, therefore the physical distance needed to bend that whole step would have to be greater than that on a fixed bridge. And from experience I can tell you it is. But that distance varies depending on how many springs and how much tension the springs provide.
If I had to guess if there was any difference in the distance needed to bend a given string to achieve that full step bend on guitars with 2 different tunings such as E standard or Eb standard and both guitars having a fixed bridge,and with the same scale length neck. I would have to agree with The Fireball on this one and say the distance would be the same. And that any given bend with an Eb tuning takes less effort than the same bend with an E standard tuning on strings of the same gauge.
Don't forget to use the same scale length necks, or use the same guitar when conducting your experiment for each tuning if you choose to do so, and come back and tell us what results you come up with! smile.gif Because now I am curious as well! biggrin.gif


Thanks Rich! Its interesting that you said that about the tremolo..I noticed that and it was one of the reasons that I changed my Fender Strat into a hard tail about a year and half ago....I'm only recently beginning to wonder if I should change it back..(for fun...as I don't think I'm ever going to be a big user.)...I probably won't because of that bending issue and also the out of tune issues that go with wammy bars.
I don't think I'm the scientist who will measure each string and make a table of measurements accordingly...I just know that somewhere someone has already done it.....I don't really care TBH!!! laugh.gif


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Cosmin Lupu
post Jun 4 2013, 12:09 PM
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Enjoy the music, mate biggrin.gif Don't think about that much physics. There's an old samurai saying: 'Too many mind. No mind!' wink.gif


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vampire18
post Jun 4 2013, 10:02 PM
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hello,

the note the guitar produces is basically the frequency at which the string vibrates. this is affected by 2 things
1. length of the string vibrating(the shorter it is the higher it is, thats why the higher up the neck the higher the pitch)
2. tension of the string(when you bend you increase the tension since your using force on the string)

to some extent the string gauge is also importnat for bending(the thicker it is the more force you need to use to get the tension up)

the reason its easier to bend in Eb is that the string is less tense to begin with(just imagine bending a really slack rope or bending a super tight rope), the distance you have to bend it is not identical, but is too close to identical to be significant.

all of this is according to my knowledge of physics,as i couldn't find proof anywhere online.

This post has been edited by vampire18: Jun 4 2013, 10:04 PM


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Cosmin Lupu
post Jun 5 2013, 08:18 AM
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Hey man, this assumption is very correct in the situation in which you tune down to Eb with the same set of strings you had in E standard. If you also increase the string tension, the effort will not decrease as the string does not become slack.


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Headbanger
post Jun 5 2013, 09:42 AM
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QUOTE (vampire18 @ Jun 4 2013, 11:02 PM) *
hello,

the note the guitar produces is basically the frequency at which the string vibrates. this is affected by 2 things
1. length of the string vibrating(the shorter it is the higher it is, thats why the higher up the neck the higher the pitch)
2. tension of the string(when you bend you increase the tension since your using force on the string)

to some extent the string gauge is also importnat for bending(the thicker it is the more force you need to use to get the tension up)

the reason its easier to bend in Eb is that the string is less tense to begin with(just imagine bending a really slack rope or bending a super tight rope), the distance you have to bend it is not identical, but is too close to identical to be significant.

all of this is according to my knowledge of physics,as i couldn't find proof anywhere online.

I agree with what you said Vampire...So little difference its not worth measuring...but there will be a slight difference in different tensions.
Thanks for your input...

....and to you Cosmin..“The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled.” ― Plutarch laugh.gif


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Shaolin
post Jun 5 2013, 06:11 PM
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Hi my friend,

I stumbled over this thread today and it really made me curious. So I decided to try it out myself. When I bend the b-string up a whole note on the 12th fret my fingers will also have to bend the g and d-strings and my fingertip will almost touch the a string.

Then I tuned the b-string down a whole octave and tried the same thing again, bending it up a whole note on the 12th fret. Now I won't even touch the d-string anymore. So the actual distance I have to bend the string is much shorter.

So when you drop your guitar's tuning to Eb, your bending motion will be slightly smaller than in E standard.

You can also think about it this way. By diving your whammy bar you can make some of the strings go completely loose, not having anymore tension at all. Theoretically you can lower the pitch of a string to infinity. But when you lift your whammy bar up, you most probably can only raise the pitch about a fourth.

So at low tension you can raise and lower the pitch of a string a lot with only a tiny little motion, while at high tension even a big motion won't raise the pitch a lot.

Hope that helps tongue.gif

Take care


QUOTE (Headbanger @ May 27 2013, 05:26 PM) *
I decided To tune my Fender Strat down half a step as I seem to be playing a lot of Eb songs lately..I'll leave my other guitar, my Les Paul in normal Standard and use whichever guitar is appropriate for each song.
I have tuned down before on a number of occasions and I know that this makes bending the strings that much easier. But I was wondering today if I am bending any more distance to reach the required tones. I don't think I am. If I am its so little that I can't seem to notice although my head tells me something is different because of the easier to bend less tension on the strings. What is the theory behind this, any one know?

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Headbanger
post Jun 5 2013, 08:54 PM
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QUOTE (Shaolin @ Jun 5 2013, 07:11 PM) *
Then I tuned the b-string down a whole octave and tried the same thing again, bending it up a whole note on the 12th fret. Now I won't even touch the d-string anymore. So the actual distance I have to bend the string is much shorter.

So when you drop your guitar's tuning to Eb, your bending motion will be slightly smaller than in E standard.

You can also think about it this way. By diving your whammy bar you can make some of the strings go completely loose, not having anymore tension at all. Theoretically you can lower the pitch of a string to infinity. But when you lift your whammy bar up, you most probably can only raise the pitch about a fourth.

So at low tension you can raise and lower the pitch of a string a lot with only a tiny little motion, while at high tension even a big motion won't raise the pitch a lot.

Hope that helps tongue.gif

Take care


Wow thanks...that's really interesting...I thought it would have been the other way around. smile.gif


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vonhotch
post Jun 5 2013, 09:14 PM
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I think that since the variables in this would be string size, scale length and string tension, and the only thing that changes is tension, it maybe able to be tested with a string tension calculator. I think that it maybe that different notes vibrate at different tensions but it does not have an inverse relationship to the other variables so only changing tension may cause the amount of tension needed to go from note "x" to note "y" maybe different. If you change the tension of the string and the string size you maybe able to make it so the distance you have to bend the string to create the correct tension as before is the same. I did not actually test anything on a calculator. I'm feeling a bit lazy after thinking that hard, but this is the link to the calculator I use figure out what size strings I want for different things. If you want to try. Hope my ramblings made some sense to someone other than me. laugh.gif
http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_guitar_string.htm


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vonhotch
post Jun 6 2013, 05:21 PM
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The more I thought about this the more my brain began to hurt.....But I found this paper on the effects of distance versus tension on elastic bands. I know it's not quite the same thing but I think it is a similar effect.
http://www.if.uidaho.edu/~chris/docs/Calcu...andTensions.pdf
So as long as the frequency of notes happen at equal distances versus the tension, it may be bending the same distance in a different tuning? Maybe?

Edit. I went and did an experiment with the string calculator I started by finding the tension of an E string in standard tuning.

E4 using a string guage of .01045 at 17 lbs of tension and 25" scale length and 329.63 hz.

The same string guage tuned to Eb has a tension of 15.15 lbs and a frequency of 311.13hz.

My experiment was to virtually bend the E string at the 12th fret 1 whole step with both tunings. And determine whether the tension is the same with both tunings. This would be assuming that the tension over distance is linear like in the elastic band study above.

Anyway....... Standard tuning

E5 tension 17 lbs 659.26 hz calculator says string gauge would have to be...... .00522 (Impossible I know)
F#5 to end up with the same string size the tension would be 21.4 lbs (frequency 739.99hz)

A difference of 4.4 lbs

Eb tuning

E5 tension 15.15 lbs 659.26 hz string guage would have to be...... .00493
F#5 739.99hz to get a string guage of .00493 tension would be..... 19.1 lbs

A difference of 3.95 lbs

Conclussion. If the tension of the string varies equally over any distance. Then the distance to bend one whole step in Eb tuning should be slightly less than in standard tuning........

This post has been edited by vonhotch: Jun 6 2013, 05:54 PM


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Headbanger
post Jun 6 2013, 07:17 PM
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QUOTE (vonhotch @ Jun 6 2013, 06:21 PM) *
The more I thought about this the more my brain began to hurt.....But I found this paper on the effects of distance versus tension on elastic bands. I know it's not quite the same thing but I think it is a similar effect.
http://www.if.uidaho.edu/~chris/docs/Calcu...andTensions.pdf
So as long as the frequency of notes happen at equal distances versus the tension, it may be bending the same distance in a different tuning? Maybe?

Edit. I went and did an experiment with the string calculator I started by finding the tension of an E string in standard tuning.

E4 using a string guage of .01045 at 17 lbs of tension and 25" scale length and 329.63 hz.

The same string guage tuned to Eb has a tension of 15.15 lbs and a frequency of 311.13hz.

My experiment was to virtually bend the E string at the 12th fret 1 whole step with both tunings. And determine whether the tension is the same with both tunings. This would be assuming that the tension over distance is linear like in the elastic band study above.

Anyway....... Standard tuning

E5 tension 17 lbs 659.26 hz calculator says string gauge would have to be...... .00522 (Impossible I know)
F#5 to end up with the same string size the tension would be 21.4 lbs (frequency 739.99hz)

A difference of 4.4 lbs

Eb tuning

E5 tension 15.15 lbs 659.26 hz string guage would have to be...... .00493
F#5 739.99hz to get a string guage of .00493 tension would be..... 19.1 lbs

A difference of 3.95 lbs

Conclussion. If the tension of the string varies equally over any distance. Then the distance to bend one whole step in Eb tuning should be slightly less than in standard tuning........


Hey Vonhotch...that's pretty scientific!! Sounds a bit like Vampire and Shaolin's conclusions!! I feel better now that I know that I wasn't the only one who was curious about the science of strings...Considering that's what we all do every day!! laugh.gif


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thefireball
post Jun 7 2013, 05:37 AM
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Wow y'all totally lost me but I get the idea I think.


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vonhotch
post Jun 7 2013, 01:28 PM
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QUOTE (Headbanger @ Jun 6 2013, 06:17 PM) *
Hey Vonhotch...that's pretty scientific!! Sounds a bit like Vampire and Shaolin's conclusions!! I feel better now that I know that I wasn't the only one who was curious about the science of strings...Considering that's what we all do every day!! laugh.gif

Ha ha. I got the impression you were looking for some proof or a test or something, and it was bugging me that I could not think it out. I wonder what other science is behind the guitar that we don't normally think about.


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Headbanger
post Jun 7 2013, 03:13 PM
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QUOTE (vonhotch @ Jun 7 2013, 02:28 PM) *
Ha ha. I got the impression you were looking for some proof or a test or something, and it was bugging me that I could not think it out. I wonder what other science is behind the guitar that we don't normally think about.


That was exactly what I was looking for Vonhotch! Cheers Dude!! I'm full of questions...but most of them are irrelevant..Its just sometimes in life we just sit here and physics and science happen and we ignore it for better or worse..Sometimes curiosity on something gets the better of me...Its like a useless scientific guitar facts book that needs to be written...Or another instrument or anything really...See...I'm doing it again!! laugh.gif


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vonhotch
post Jun 7 2013, 03:59 PM
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QUOTE (Headbanger @ Jun 7 2013, 02:13 PM) *
That was exactly what I was looking for Vonhotch! Cheers Dude!! I'm full of questions...but most of them are irrelevant..Its just sometimes in life we just sit here and physics and science happen and we ignore it for better or worse..Sometimes curiosity on something gets the better of me...Its like a useless scientific guitar facts book that needs to be written...Or another instrument or anything really...See...I'm doing it again!! laugh.gif


I can see it now, I would totally buy that book. It would be perfect all full of your illustrations!


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