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jammer91
post Jun 30 2007, 09:23 PM
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Hi,

Im sorta pissed off right now. Ive been playing guitar for 2 years and cant create much shreds or solos (thats cause ive been listening and playing punk rock all this while and have just joined a metal band).

I know my techniques and stuff right, but i just dont understand theory. I need to know theory to create lead stuff. Im like totally lost!!! I dont understand the real difference between a scale and a mode, when our lead guitarist tells me to play in a key im like WHAT? Sadly now the lead guitarist has left and im all alone stuck with a drummer and vocalist with high expectations!

Can you guys post some lessons in order of difficulty that tell you how to USE and play scales and things like that (mainly for making metal songs)?

A question thats really been bugging me about scales is that do we always have to play the notes in the same order that its in the box?

Do we need scales to make songs?

What are some good scales or modes for metal (links would be appreciated)?

I saw Andrew's key and chord lesson but how do we use that with power chords?

Please help me out, i need to fix my problem within wednesday (i have to make a song by then and tommorow is gone since im getting my report cards and im dead!).

Thanks a lot for trying to help me out guys, i know i have loads if questions and theyre really time consuming to read and answer...

Note: Please ignore spelling errors and stuff as im typing fast under stress


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Smikey2006
post Jun 30 2007, 09:37 PM
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Im going to let others post the theory because i am lost with this too smile.gif i need much theory help, but heres from one metal guitarist to another. To make great music doesn't mean you need to know all the modes and scales and theory, music comes from the heart, if youve played enough you know what notes sound good beside each other and which don't, if you have troubles soloing just write your solos before you have to play them, also to play metal its not all about shred and speed, try drop c tuning or my new favorite D minor smile.gif there are some great licks you can create in those tunings that are very metal and don't have to be fast at all smile.gif Although Theory is great for playing stuff on the fly sometimes improve without knowledge can turn out just as well. once i start posting some of my tabs alot of theory buffs will realise i don't follow any pattern at all smile.gif but it still sounds good


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Robin
post Jun 30 2007, 10:07 PM
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QUOTE (jammer91 @ Jun 30 2007, 08:23 PM) *
Do we need scales to make songs?


I play in a metal band, and I've NEVER used scales when making riffs/songs.


QUOTE (jammer91 @ Jun 30 2007, 08:23 PM) *
A question thats really been bugging me about scales is that do we always have to play the notes in the same order that its in the box?


You can use any note in any order or direction inside a scale. (If I understood your question correctly?)



Have you checked out Kris' Speed picking lessons? Pavel also got alot of awesome lessons. And Andrew have really awesome theory lessons.


Hope this helped atleast a littlebit smile.gif Good luck.

Edit: Check out these lessons.
http://www2.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-guitar-3.htm
http://www2.guitarmasterclass.net/in-the-style3.htm
http://www2.guitarmasterclass.net/101-video-lessons-3.htm
http://www2.guitarmasterclass.net/riffs-licks-lessons-4.htm
http://www2.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar-exercises-2.htm

Sorry for not being that precice... tongue.gif
I like this one in particular http://www2.guitarmasterclass.net/solo-gui...esson/index.htm

This post has been edited by Robin: Jun 30 2007, 10:14 PM


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AIB234
post Jun 30 2007, 10:10 PM
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Hey jammer,

I am no theory guru but I think I can answer most of your questions.

Can you guys post some lessons in order of difficulty that tell you how to USE and play scales and things like that (mainly for making metal songs)?

I don't think this is necessarily possible. There is no one way to use a scale in a song. That's for your to jam, improvise, and write about. You know what I mean? Once you learn the scale it's up to you to implement it into a song.

A question thats really been bugging me about scales is that do we always have to play the notes in the same order that its in the box?

No! You can play the notes in any order of any scale that you want. It's probably the best idea to stay within the notes of the box of that scale so that the notes all go well together, but under no circumstances do you have to play them in order. In fact, it's quite boring if you play them all sequentially!

Do we need scales to make songs?

I would say the answer to this is yes. The key defines the notes (or scale) inside the key.

A scale is just a pattern of notes based upon tones and semitones which when together, or played with another instrument playing within that same scale or key, sounds nice.

What are some good scales or modes for metal (links would be appreciated)?

Pentatonic are used quite a lot in Metal (take bands like Metallica for an example)

This post has been edited by AIB234: Jun 30 2007, 10:13 PM


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stratman33
post Jul 1 2007, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (jammer91 @ Jun 30 2007, 04:23 PM) *
Do we need scales to make songs?


No, I never use scales to make songs, i just mess around.I dont see how you can make full songs out of scales...

This post has been edited by stratman33: Jul 1 2007, 06:18 PM


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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 1 2007, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE (stratman33 @ Jul 1 2007, 01:17 PM) *
No, I never use scales to make songs, i just mess around.I dont see how you can make full songs out of scales...


Guys, there have been a couple of quotes like this - I think Robin made the last one ...

Fact of the matter is that whether or not you know it, you are using scales to make songs!

By definition any selection of notes within an octave is a scale of some sort or other ....

Now I take your point - you are not hung up on using a particular scale, you are using a selection of notes that sounds cool to you, and that is a great and liberating way of writing. If you sat down and analyzed your songs however, you would be able to fit a scale to them. This is an example of theory serving to describe inspiration, rather than the other way around, either way is fine.

I guess this is a subtle point, but I am the theory guy smile.gif


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Robin
post Jul 1 2007, 08:46 PM
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Most of the time yes, we are using scales. But I dont think about any scale or any pattern at all when I make riffs and songs. So I wouldnt say that I'm using scales. And for instance, if I change from one riff to another in a song, It can suddenly be in a totally different key and scale, that would "theoreticly" be all wrong. But I'm sure that I sometimes dont use scales at all, unless you want to call this a scale: http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_sc...ic&get2=Get

Also, this sort of depends on what style you're playing. When I make rock'n'roll and blues for my one man band I often use the pentatonic scale(with alot of "blue notes"). But when it comes to metal I just play random stuff all around the fret board wtihout thinking about scales.

But of course, I understand what you're saying Andrew tongue.gif

This post has been edited by Robin: Jul 1 2007, 08:49 PM


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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 1 2007, 09:40 PM
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QUOTE (Robin @ Jul 1 2007, 03:46 PM) *
Most of the time yes, we are using scales. But I dont think about any scale or any pattern at all when I make riffs and songs. So I wouldnt say that I'm using scales. And for instance, if I change from one riff to another in a song, It can suddenly be in a totally different key and scale, that would "theoreticly" be all wrong. But I'm sure that I sometimes dont use scales at all, unless you want to call this a scale: http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_sc...ic&get2=Get

Also, this sort of depends on what style you're playing. When I make rock'n'roll and blues for my one man band I often use the pentatonic scale(with alot of "blue notes"). But when it comes to metal I just play random stuff all around the fret board wtihout thinking about scales.

But of course, I understand what you're saying Andrew tongue.gif


And I understand what you are saying smile.gif


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icedern
post Jul 1 2007, 09:44 PM
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One thing you need to realize is if you haven't ever been playing lead or playing with scales, you are not going to be able to learn it all in a couple days. I've played guitar for 11 years...I never took lessons or even attempted at learning theory because i was just a "rhythm guy". I decided last week that I was tired of being a half-a$$ed guitar player and signed up to this site. I'm just learning the pentatonic scale now, after 11 years of playing.

Its going to take patience and practice. You won't pick all this up in a couple days. But don't give up! All you have to do is when youre watching the lessons these guys do, understand that they started the same as all of us.

I've wrote many songs without knowing any scales, so don't feel like you can't write until you know theory.


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stratman33
post Jul 1 2007, 09:50 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 1 2007, 03:40 PM) *
Guys, there have been a couple of quotes like this - I think Robin made the last one ...

Fact of the matter is that whether or not you know it, you are using scales to make songs!

By definition any selection of notes within an octave is a scale of some sort or other ....

Now I take your point - you are not hung up on using a particular scale, you are using a selection of notes that sounds cool to you, and that is a great and liberating way of writing. If you sat down and analyzed your songs however, you would be able to fit a scale to them. This is an example of theory serving to describe inspiration, rather than the other way around, either way is fine.

I guess this is a subtle point, but I am the theory guy smile.gif


Wow I never really realised that..... smile.gif


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Robin
post Jul 1 2007, 09:59 PM
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Oh and btw. I dont mean "never" to use scales. When it comes to soloing and improvisation, USE SCALES! maybe you are already doing it, I'm just saying smile.gif


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Resurrection
post Jul 1 2007, 10:50 PM
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QUOTE (jammer91 @ Jun 30 2007, 09:23 PM) *
Thanks a lot for trying to help me out guys, i know i have loads if questions and theyre really time consuming to read and answer...


Well, there's already been a few good suggestions from the other contributors to this thread. If you're just starting out on playing metal solos then I agree that the pentatonic scale is probably the one to concentrate on initially. Kris has some good pentatonic lessons under the 101 section. Don't get hung up over the subtle differences between 'scales' and 'modes'. Both words describe a sequence of notes with particular spacings between them. Did you understand the details of Andrews lesson on keys? The main thing to realise is that a key defines a particular collection of chords that can be soloed over using a single scale (I'm over-simplifying here, but it's close enough). By learning the scale boxes you get a fretboard 'pattern' of notes that you can use to solo over all those chords. Note that power chords aren't exceptions to this, and you aren't required (and shouldn't) just run sequentially up and down the scale pattern.

On the question of whether you need scales to make songs, that's very much a matter of opinion and of style. IMHO I would rather have a reasonable knowledge of scales and harmony from which to construct a good piece of music rather than play around until I find something that sounds good. Other people are of the opposite opinion. It's kind of like art, where the guy who randomly throws paint at a canvas in an interesting way is just as valid an artist as the guy who spends years at art college learning about brushstrokes, lighting, composition, etc.

Good luck with the practice and the song writing. Let us know how you're getting on.


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jammer91
post Jul 2 2007, 07:29 PM
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Thanks a lot!
I now get the picture thanks to you guys, its all about putting notes that sound good together. Ive come up with a plan by combining your ideas with some of mine to make a song:
1- Drop C tune the guitar
2-Turn up the gain, treble and stuff
3- Play a few power chords and other chords in the last three strings
4- Quickly play some triplets with the last note being a screaming artificial harmonic
5- If I'm in the mood add some fret taps, legato, bends and stuff
6- Do this stuff again

FIRST SONG!!!!

Thanks a lot:
Smikey2006
Robin
AIB234
stratman33
Andrew Cockburn
icedern
stratman33
Resurrection



What do you think of my plan?

Ill make a video and post the youtube link of my first song in a few weeks.

Thanks again guys!!! I would have probably quit if it wasnt for you. There are a lot of people around me who pay like 300 dollars a month for acoustic guitar lessons (theyre also really good at electric) and they try to talk big cause of knowing theory and pretend its like everything by using theory word to tick me off. Im gonna put them off with an awesome song!


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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Nov 10 2007, 12:27 AM) *
Part of the key to success is to never call yourself good...


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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 2 2007, 07:41 PM
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QUOTE (jammer91 @ Jul 2 2007, 02:29 PM) *
Thanks a lot!
I now get the picture thanks to you guys, its all about putting notes that sound good together. Ive come up with a plan by combining your ideas with some of mine to make a song:
1- Drop C tune the guitar
2-Turn up the gain, treble and stuff
3- Play a few power chords and other chords in the last three strings
4- Quickly play some triplets with the last note being a screaming artificial harmonic
5- If I'm in the mood add some fret taps, legato, bends and stuff
6- Do this stuff again

Good plan laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


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jammer91
post Jul 2 2007, 07:43 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 2 2007, 10:41 PM) *
Good plan laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


Thanks (even if you are being sarcastic i still like my plan) laugh.gif


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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Nov 10 2007, 12:27 AM) *
Part of the key to success is to never call yourself good...


My RIg:
-Epiphone 1967 FLying V
-Line 6 POD XT live
-VOX Valvetronics AD30VT
-Yamaha EG-112
-Yamaha GA-10
-Some Yamaha acoustic which is a magnet to dust under my bed

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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 2 2007, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE (jammer91 @ Jul 2 2007, 02:43 PM) *
Thanks (even if you are being sarcastic i still like my plan) laugh.gif


Nope, no sarcasm intended, I was just glad you had found a way forwards smile.gif

This post has been edited by Andrew Cockburn: Jul 2 2007, 07:50 PM


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Live long and prosper ...

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Effects : Line6 Helix, Keeley Modded Boss DS1, Keeley Modded Boss BD2, Keeley 4 knob compressor, Keeley OxBlood
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icedern
post Jul 2 2007, 07:50 PM
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Awesome man, keep it up!


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Resurrection
post Jul 2 2007, 08:01 PM
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QUOTE (jammer91 @ Jul 2 2007, 07:29 PM) *
Thanks a lot!
I now get the picture thanks to you guys, its all about putting notes that sound good together. Ive come up with a plan by combining your ideas with some of mine to make a song:
1- Drop C tune the guitar
2-Turn up the gain, treble and stuff
3- Play a few power chords and other chords in the last three strings
4- Quickly play some triplets with the last note being a screaming artificial harmonic
5- If I'm in the mood add some fret taps, legato, bends and stuff
6- Do this stuff again



I've heard worse plans biggrin.gif

Seriously, you're probably doing the right thing by keeping it reasonably simple. Simple ideas played well always outdo complicated ideas played sloppily. With high-gain metal playing you can sound really effective without exhausting every advanced technique there is.

Let us know how you get on. Good luck.


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Eat-Sleep-andJam
post Jul 2 2007, 09:39 PM
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I love how from the start of this thread Jammer is like major pissed off and frusterated and by today we have
QUOTE
I HAVE A PLAN




I thought that was funny. Any ways its kool how a little help can go a long way. Good plan and keep jamming !


-John biggrin.gif


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jammer91
post Jul 3 2007, 11:17 AM
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QUOTE (Eat-Sleep-andJam @ Jul 3 2007, 12:39 AM) *
I love how from the start of this thread Jammer is like major pissed off and frusterated and by today we have
I thought that was funny. Any ways its kool how a little help can go a long way. Good plan and keep jamming !
-John biggrin.gif


Lol yeah thanks


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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Nov 10 2007, 12:27 AM) *
Part of the key to success is to never call yourself good...


My RIg:
-Epiphone 1967 FLying V
-Line 6 POD XT live
-VOX Valvetronics AD30VT
-Yamaha EG-112
-Yamaha GA-10
-Some Yamaha acoustic which is a magnet to dust under my bed

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