2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Floyd Rose Tilted Towards The Bottom
sammetal92
post Jun 21 2013, 09:09 AM
Post #1


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 760
Joined: 21-January 13
Member No.: 17.500



I noticed this today when checking the action of the strings (factory setup) on my ESP M-II. The FR Bridge is tilted slightly towards the treble side and slants upward at the bass side. I called up the music store person and asked him about it, he told me to use the whammy for a dive bomb and pull up from it and check if it stays in tune. I did that and it was still in perfect tune. He said no need to worry about it, there's a slight tilt in almost all the FR Bridges.

The guy isn't as much experienced as I am with repairing guitars but since this is my first brand new guitar that costed me money from my scholarship, I'm scared of doing things like lowering/raising the action with the bridge under full tension (even though I have some experience with fixing floyd rose tremolos). All I ever did to my guitar was change the pickup height a few days ago. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but hey, the price on the thing was a lot for me, at least for now.

Pictures:










I drew a red line along the tilt just for more clarification:



Should I be worried about anything? Knife edges wearing off? Action problems? Playability? Sustain? Anything?

This post has been edited by sammetal92: Jun 21 2013, 03:54 PM


--------------------

Download my free guitar and Floyd Rose setup guide: http://www.samsguitars.tk/
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mertay
post Jun 21 2013, 09:37 AM
Post #2


GMC:er
Group Icon

Group: GMC Senior
Posts: 2.963
Joined: 27-May 13
From: Turkey / izmir
Member No.: 18.294



When removing the backplate of the guitar, you'll see the springs of the floyd and 2 big screws holding those springs which are connecting the the body.

If minor floyd angle adjustments are needed usually just turning those screws a little is enough (if you want to lower them just loosen those screws gently). When bigger adjustments needed we either add/remove springs or change the spring configuration (if 3 springs are making a /I\ shape its tighter than a III shape).

Whats changes with the angle feeling-wise is slight feeling of tention on strings while playing. If the string tension feels a bit loose then you can adjust it closer to the body.

But if the guitar feels and sounds fine than no problem smile.gif

Its important to use the same sting thickness and brand as much as possible as this angle will change depending on the string tention. Try some easy to find strings and select the one you like most before making detailed adjustments on the guitar.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Todd Simpson
post Jun 21 2013, 10:03 AM
Post #3


GMC:er
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 15.013
Joined: 23-December 09
From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Member No.: 8.794



Ahh yes smile.gif The dreaded "Not Enough Spring Tension on my Floyd" Issue. It's sadly quite common. As was mentioned, take off the backplace and increase the tension a bit and that will fix it. Make sure to unlock the lock nuts and loosen the strings before hand or you may pop some strings.

If it looks like this pic, then just tighten the screws in to the wood one turn each at a time, then retune, then repeat...

Attached Image

If it looks like this, take it to a Luthier, or be prepared to learn far more about floating trems than you wanted to know. If it's ZR style trem you can adjust that big TENSION DIAL and if it's maxed, you have to add tighter springs or (if they will fit) more springs. sad.gif

Attached Image
Todd

This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jun 21 2013, 10:24 AM


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sammetal92
post Jun 21 2013, 10:43 AM
Post #4


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 760
Joined: 21-January 13
Member No.: 17.500



I tried that but those springs only adjust the angle of the floyd rose being pulled down or up, not sideways. Its like the pivot stud on the treble side is deeper inside than the pivot on the bass side. I tried unscrewing the pivot to raise it up, just minor rotations, but it didn't really make much of a difference.

EDIT: Just read this on this page: http://www.ibanezrules.com/tech/setup/action.htm

QUOTE
It is perfectly fine that the bridge is at an angle!! [the treble side lower than the bass]. Wound strings need much more room to oscillate than the fine treble strings. You can run treble action much lower than bass without buzz and is perfectly fine to do.


This post has been edited by sammetal92: Jun 21 2013, 12:24 PM


--------------------

Download my free guitar and Floyd Rose setup guide: http://www.samsguitars.tk/
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SpaseMoonkey
post Jun 21 2013, 01:19 PM
Post #5


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 951
Joined: 8-May 11
From: Warren, Ohio
Member No.: 12.764



QUOTE (sammetal92 @ Jun 21 2013, 05:43 AM) *
I tried that but those springs only adjust the angle of the floyd rose being pulled down or up, not sideways. Its like the pivot stud on the treble side is deeper inside than the pivot on the bass side. I tried unscrewing the pivot to raise it up, just minor rotations, but it didn't really make much of a difference.

EDIT: Just read this on this page: http://www.ibanezrules.com/tech/setup/action.htm


I would like to add on that. When you see a set of strings visually it will be e-o-o-0-O-E with the bass side being heavier you would actually need the tension to be slightly tilted so that you get the same height across all the strings.

But this also depends on the trem system. Some of them you can adjusted the trem and the strings individually. Guitars that come to mind are Fenders, PRS, and MusicMan. Where as you get into an original floyd it is the full bridge that needs it to be tilted to achieve the same string heights. I actually don't really see a change on mine from treble to bass on mine, which one is a ZR and the other is I think a Edge Zero 7 pro.

After reading Todd's message and looking back at your pictures of the issue, it looks as if you also have the bridge leaning forward slightly, that can cause problems with tuning. I know when I owned my Dean Dime-O-Flame, it had I believe an Original on it, which required it to be pretty much flush with the body.


--------------------
Guitars:
Ibanez RG920QM (Black Ice) , Ibanez S770PB (Natural Flat) , Ibanez RG470XL (Black Perl) , Squire IV Jazz Bass (Sunburst)
Gear:
Kemper Profiling Amp , Mesa Mark 5:25

My YouTube Page.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sammetal92
post Jun 21 2013, 02:16 PM
Post #6


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 760
Joined: 21-January 13
Member No.: 17.500



QUOTE (SpaseMoonkey @ Jun 21 2013, 12:19 PM) *
I would like to add on that. When you see a set of strings visually it will be e-o-o-0-O-E with the bass side being heavier you would actually need the tension to be slightly tilted so that you get the same height across all the strings.

But this also depends on the trem system. Some of them you can adjusted the trem and the strings individually. Guitars that come to mind are Fenders, PRS, and MusicMan. Where as you get into an original floyd it is the full bridge that needs it to be tilted to achieve the same string heights. I actually don't really see a change on mine from treble to bass on mine, which one is a ZR and the other is I think a Edge Zero 7 pro.

After reading Todd's message and looking back at your pictures of the issue, it looks as if you also have the bridge leaning forward slightly, that can cause problems with tuning. I know when I owned my Dean Dime-O-Flame, it had I believe an Original on it, which required it to be pretty much flush with the body.


Really? huh.gif

Because I view it from the side and it seems pretty straight (I mean I made it as straight as I possibly could), and it doesn't really go out of tune when I use the whammy on it, I've checked it with a tuner mellow.gif want me to get some pictures?


--------------------

Download my free guitar and Floyd Rose setup guide: http://www.samsguitars.tk/
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
vonhotch
post Jun 21 2013, 03:00 PM
Post #7


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 836
Joined: 25-April 12
From: Franklin, New York
Member No.: 15.741



QUOTE (sammetal92 @ Jun 21 2013, 08:09 AM) *
I noticed this today when checking the action of the strings (factory setup) on my ESP M-II. The FR Bridge is tilted slightly towards the treble side and slants upward at the bass side. I called up the music store person and asked him about it, he told me to use the whammy for a dive bomb and pull up from it and check if it stays in tune. I did that and it was still in perfect tune. He said no need to worry about it, there's a slight tilt in almost all the FR Bridges.

The guy isn't as much experienced as I am with repairing guitars but since this is my first brand new guitar that costed me money from my scholarship, I'm scared of doing things like lowering/raising the action with the bridge under full tension (even though I have some experience with fixing floyd rose tremolos). All I ever did to my guitar was change the pickup height a few days ago. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but hey, the price on the thing was a lot for me, at least for now.


I would not recommend trying to adjust the height when it is under full tension. I believe this will wear the pivots and or the edges. I think everything should be loosened when making any adjustments. With that said. I think that I would check the action of the strings and see what it is. If one of the E strings is excessively high or low. Then I would try to straighten it up, if the angle makes the action better for the strings then I think I would leave it. I'm not an expert with these though. This is my opinion. I thought they should be level though as well.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sammetal92
post Jun 21 2013, 04:22 PM
Post #8


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 760
Joined: 21-January 13
Member No.: 17.500



The action of all the strings seems equal when playing, so I guess its fine mellow.gif


--------------------

Download my free guitar and Floyd Rose setup guide: http://www.samsguitars.tk/
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SpaseMoonkey
post Jun 21 2013, 05:03 PM
Post #9


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 951
Joined: 8-May 11
From: Warren, Ohio
Member No.: 12.764



QUOTE (sammetal92 @ Jun 21 2013, 09:16 AM) *
Really? huh.gif

Because I view it from the side and it seems pretty straight (I mean I made it as straight as I possibly could), and it doesn't really go out of tune when I use the whammy on it, I've checked it with a tuner mellow.gif want me to get some pictures?


laugh.gif This is true I'm looking back to front not on the side. Was like what does mine look like took a picture and it came out the same. Just me being stupid! I'm just use to how mine actually sit flat in the body since I like my action so close I can't fit a sheet of paper under it. So mine looks straight where your action is a tad higher.


--------------------
Guitars:
Ibanez RG920QM (Black Ice) , Ibanez S770PB (Natural Flat) , Ibanez RG470XL (Black Perl) , Squire IV Jazz Bass (Sunburst)
Gear:
Kemper Profiling Amp , Mesa Mark 5:25

My YouTube Page.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jstcrsn
post Jun 21 2013, 10:05 PM
Post #10


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 2.857
Joined: 29-March 08
From: kansas, USA
Member No.: 4.733



QUOTE (sammetal92 @ Jun 21 2013, 04:22 PM) *
The action of all the strings seems equal when playing, so I guess its fine mellow.gif

don't do nothing, if it ain't broke -don;t fix.
the action might be slanted to properly get it right, might have to be angled compared to the guitar , but no big deal. If you are OCD and can;t handle that, you will have to sell your guitar because (from what it sounds like) you won't fix the look.
you decide 1. fix the look -screw up your action
2 fix the action- have a screwy looking bridge laugh.gif
of course if your action is off , you can fix 2 birds with one stone and I have rambled on for nothing

This post has been edited by jstcrsn: Jun 21 2013, 10:07 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sammetal92
post Jun 21 2013, 10:16 PM
Post #11


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 760
Joined: 21-January 13
Member No.: 17.500



QUOTE (SpaseMoonkey @ Jun 21 2013, 04:03 PM) *
laugh.gif This is true I'm looking back to front not on the side. Was like what does mine look like took a picture and it came out the same. Just me being stupid! I'm just use to how mine actually sit flat in the body since I like my action so close I can't fit a sheet of paper under it. So mine looks straight where your action is a tad higher.


Ah, but the buzz, I don't like the buzz unsure.gif Anyway the screws at the back are almost all their way inside the body blink.gif

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jun 21 2013, 09:05 PM) *
don't do nothing, if it ain't broke -don;t fix.
the action might be slanted to properly get it right, might have to be angled compared to the guitar , but no big deal. If you are OCD and can;t handle that, you will have to sell your guitar because (from what it sounds like) you won't fix the look.
you decide 1. fix the look -screw up your action
2 fix the action- have a screwy looking bridge laugh.gif
of course if your action is off , you can fix 2 birds with one stone and I have rambled on for nothing


I guess I'm just overly paranoid dry.gif

This post has been edited by sammetal92: Jun 21 2013, 10:19 PM


--------------------

Download my free guitar and Floyd Rose setup guide: http://www.samsguitars.tk/
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Todd Simpson
post Jun 22 2013, 12:41 AM
Post #12


GMC:er
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 15.013
Joined: 23-December 09
From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Member No.: 8.794



Just to clarify smile.gif

1.)The Floyd is honestly tilting forward to far. That's problem number one IMHO (it's a forum so some folks may say the love their floyds that way). Fix that problem first. smile.gif See previous post for details.

2.)Having found the right spring tension to level the floyd, take a look at the neck relief (bow/dip in the neck). too much or too little creates issues so you have to find the right spot. Turn the truss 1/4 turn then re examine, then repeat. If it's getting worse, turn the other direction, repeat..... Don't turn until it's crazy tight, you'll snap the truss or strip it sad.gif

3.)Raise or lower the floyd (side screws facing up on either side) until the buzz abates. You have to find the sweet spot of as little buzz as you like, but low enough to play.

4.)If all this fails, you may need to have your frets leveled. I would not suggest doing this on a friends guitar smile.gif

LASTLY

Here is a link to an entire series of vids on setting up your guitar with a floyd. Between the steps above and these vids, you should be in good shape: )

https://www.youtube.com/user/jeffersononetwo?feature=watch




Todd



QUOTE (sammetal92 @ Jun 21 2013, 05:16 PM) *
Ah, but the buzz, I don't like the buzz unsure.gif Anyway the screws at the back are almost all their way inside the body blink.gif



I guess I'm just overly paranoid dry.gif


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jun 22 2013, 12:42 AM


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mertay
post Jun 22 2013, 01:10 AM
Post #13


GMC:er
Group Icon

Group: GMC Senior
Posts: 2.963
Joined: 27-May 13
From: Turkey / izmir
Member No.: 18.294



I'm not sure about the problem on the floyd but for neck relief here is a simple logic;

Till 7th fret if there's any buzzing lose the truss-rod till buzz is gone (or tighten till ou get buzz)

After that buzzing is fixed by adjusting tremolo.

Best way is actually pressing the first fret till the parallel fret to the neck-joint (around 18) and check the middle of this distance wether if the string is touching the fret. The distance to the fret should be like a busyness card thickness.

But this is a nice guitar and if you're not sure whats going on, find a professional smile.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
dcz702
post Jun 22 2013, 03:11 AM
Post #14


Learning Tone Seeker
*

Group: Members
Posts: 613
Joined: 5-March 13
From: Las Vegas
Member No.: 17.838



Hey man. Congrats on the guitar. I read your issue and the replies back. It kind of sounds like your little frustrated with what's going on with your tremlo and I know where your coming from every time I buy a guitar I obsess over the set up over the first couple days I play my new axe. Todd's reply sounded like it solved your problem but I would like to say anytime I mess with my set up I go through the whole process, of setting neck bridge and intonation cause its kind of a balancing act. And from what I've learned and practiced in my own hands on set up (I've set up all 5 of my guitars on my own). That it should be done in a specific order. So If i were to mess with my bridge I would do it in this order especially with a new guitar. If I do this incorrectly please someone let me know.

1 I would check the relief on the neck. I do this by using my 6th string as a straight edge by fretting first and 15th then tapping at the 6th to see the bow of the neck. Personally I like almost a straight neck. If there is a lot of relief (forward bow) I tighten the truss rod by going clockwise, bout a quarter turn, then wait maybe 20 min till the neck sets and I repeat this till the neck is as straight as I can get it, then I give it a small turn to the left to loosen the truss rod to put just a bit of relief in the neck. Very little relief as in if I had any less it would be perfect straight, but that's just my preference. Some people say you should loosen the strings when you do this but I keep them tuned and retune to pitch before I repeat the process. But I do small turns everytime.

2 I adjust the bridge height to get a comfortable action for me, you can use a String action gauge
But I just eyeball mine and go off feeling.

3 then I set my tremlo. I don't have a Floyd rose, I have fenders and I do not like floating so I bring my tremlo all the way to the body and make it hard tail. But the set up is the same from the picture I saw Todd post. I loosen the strings for this part, don't know if its ok to keep them tuned but as a precaution i loosin. When you make adjustment to the spring it changes the tension and as you retune after a adjustment you will notice the bridge had raised or dropped depending on if you loosened or tightened the springs. When you retune it will show you exactly what your adjustment did. The strings counter act the spring and the tighter the springs are the less the strings pull on it causing the bridge to lay closer to the body.
Now cause your bridge is lopsided it sounds to me that one side can be loosened or tightened to balance it. your low e to d has more pull on the bridge maybe so tighten it up a bit? Again I don't have a Floyd rose but seems logical.

4 after I've got everything nice and balanced I set the intonation, to me this is so important and I recheck this every time a put a fresh set of strings on. I take time on each string, I tune open using a good electronic tuner, then I tune at the 12th fret if its flat I move the saddle up if its sharp I move the saddle back, slightly. Retune and repeat till open string and 12th fret are in tune. I check harmonic also and check other frets like 5th and so on, so far it's always been in tune when I make adjustments using 12th fret.
On a new guitar I always take a full day to set it up because of letting the neck settle and just setting up by feeling.

This post has been edited by dcz702: Jun 22 2013, 05:21 AM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sammetal92
post Jun 22 2013, 06:35 AM
Post #15


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 760
Joined: 21-January 13
Member No.: 17.500



Thanks guys for all the help smile.gif

Todd, I meant that I don't like buzz, and if I go lower I'd probably get more buzz than I like tongue.gif I already get some buzz that doesn't go through the amp on clean or distorted on the fifth fret, and I guess I'd rather get used to a tad higher action than getting more buzz smile.gif

Heres pictures from the side of my bridge, the springs are all the way in and I have three springs making a TENT shape smile.gif and I can't screw the springs any further from the back cavity. So I'm guessing I need more springs?





Mertay, I just did what you said, I put a capo on the first fret and used my finger to fret the 17th fret and about halfway there, pushed a business card inside. The business card does get through although it moves the string slightly upward, so I guess that's a tight fit?

Also, I used one of my dad's tools to check the straightness of the neck, the thing which shows whether the thing is straight or not and has a bubble that moves left and right (I don't know the name of that tongue.gif ) and it says that the neck is pretty straight.

dcz702, thanks for the detailed response, I've never done a FULL setup on any guitar so I'm saving your post for reference the next time, and those videos Todd showed smile.gif Thanks again!


--------------------

Download my free guitar and Floyd Rose setup guide: http://www.samsguitars.tk/
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mertay
post Jun 22 2013, 11:08 AM
Post #16


GMC:er
Group Icon

Group: GMC Senior
Posts: 2.963
Joined: 27-May 13
From: Turkey / izmir
Member No.: 18.294



Hey,

Every guitar has a different tolerance about this buzzing issue regarding how straight the neck is, it also has to do a lot with how hard you pick. If you're into shred less is prefered, music that uses lots of clean tones would want more gap as picking is harder on these styles of music.

Even though tiny, the small gap means things are fine with the neck smile.gif but in cold weather (for example when winter arrives...) make sure to check it again as probably it will need a tinybit of loosening.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sammetal92
post Jun 22 2013, 04:51 PM
Post #17


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 760
Joined: 21-January 13
Member No.: 17.500



QUOTE (Mertay @ Jun 22 2013, 10:08 AM) *
Hey,

Every guitar has a different tolerance about this buzzing issue regarding how straight the neck is, it also has to do a lot with how hard you pick. If you're into shred less is prefered, music that uses lots of clean tones would want more gap as picking is harder on these styles of music.

Even though tiny, the small gap means things are fine with the neck smile.gif but in cold weather (for example when winter arrives...) make sure to check it again as probably it will need a tinybit of loosening.


I'll keep that in mind smile.gif

Also, if my bridge is a tad (like less than a milimeter) tilted towards the strings and comes back in tune whenever I push or pull on the whammy, do I still need to make it EXACTLY straight with the body of the guitar?

And there's some buzz on the fifth fret on the low E and A strings, its not much, probably doesn't get out of the amp, but any way of fixing that? I think the 6th fret is a bit uneven because there is absolutely no buzz at any other fret on any other string.


--------------------

Download my free guitar and Floyd Rose setup guide: http://www.samsguitars.tk/
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mertay
post Jun 22 2013, 05:53 PM
Post #18


GMC:er
Group Icon

Group: GMC Senior
Posts: 2.963
Joined: 27-May 13
From: Turkey / izmir
Member No.: 18.294



QUOTE (sammetal92 @ Jun 22 2013, 03:51 PM) *
I'll keep that in mind smile.gif

Also, if my bridge is a tad (like less than a milimeter) tilted towards the strings and comes back in tune whenever I push or pull on the whammy, do I still need to make it EXACTLY straight with the body of the guitar?

And there's some buzz on the fifth fret on the low E and A strings, its not much, probably doesn't get out of the amp, but any way of fixing that? I think the 6th fret is a bit uneven because there is absolutely no buzz at any other fret on any other string.


Actually if the tilt is minor then no, it will slightly effect how the guitar feel though. People who like stiff feeling strings tend to prefer the floyd tilted a little closer to the body.

Its might be cause the lower strings move wider when picked, probably losening the truss would cure it but if it isn't a big problem no worrys. When a guitar is setuped to shred comfort its normal to have minor imperfections across the fretboard.

If you think its a fret issue I'd send it to a professional.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sammetal92
post Jun 22 2013, 06:06 PM
Post #19


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 760
Joined: 21-January 13
Member No.: 17.500



Well, I guess its nothing big, whenever I'll go to the music store, I'll hand it over to the tech to see if there's anything that can be done smile.gif and thanks for bearing with me tongue.gif cool.gif


--------------------

Download my free guitar and Floyd Rose setup guide: http://www.samsguitars.tk/
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mertay
post Jun 22 2013, 06:51 PM
Post #20


GMC:er
Group Icon

Group: GMC Senior
Posts: 2.963
Joined: 27-May 13
From: Turkey / izmir
Member No.: 18.294



smile.gif

Also, where I live musicstore tech.s aren't really good with the more detailed stuff. Try to find the best tech in the city if possible, usually they are the ones who make custom guitars wink.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 


RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 19th September 2017 - 02:37 PM