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> When Standard Guitar Cabs Don't Cut It
Todd Simpson
post Jul 12 2013, 01:37 AM
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So after wads of research in to cab that can handle 7/8 string guitars, I"ve finally pulled the trigger and this guy is on the way.
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I finally had to just given up on the cabs I've been using for years.

RANDAL 412 (80's cab vintange Jaguars ala Dimebag)
CRATE Oversize 4x12 (cheap but loud)
SOUND MASTER 2x12 (Actually a Bass cab)

and even with all of them going at once, I can't get it deep enough to sound like my fav presets in the fictional world of OVERLOUD where physics doesn't matter. I've since done a painstaking amount of research in to what folks with 7/8/9 string guitars are using these days and apart from the typical

ORANGE PPC 4x12 (Nice but pricey and I'd rather have metal grilled than basket weave)
MESA 4x12 ( A fine choice to be sure, but again way pricey and a bit more sizzle than I'm going for with typical load out)

I kept coming across one name. GENZ BENZ. Evidently, these are being used by guys like TOSIN ABASI on his most recent tour and by some folks as a sub unit with a marshal cab or what not on top. I've evidently gotten so spoiled by OVERLOUD/GUITAR RIG/etc. that going back to real world amps/cabs (for an upcoming project) has resulted in audio culture shock.

I"ve never tried these GENZ cabs and I could not find one anywhere to try out before hand so I"m rolling the dice on this one. If it doesn't work out, it will be going up for trade in and I"ll just get either the mesa or orange and quit trying to outsmart the general djent decision on cabs smile.gif

QUESTION: anybody else gotten audio shock going from software to real amps?

This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jul 12 2013, 01:39 AM


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Darius Wave
post Jul 12 2013, 08:29 AM
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Unfortunately unlike many of my guitar friends I don't play games, either don't watch fantasty movies so...hmmm I would have problem to help You tongue.gif

There is a guy - David Laboga here in Poland. You should try some of his stuff - DL Cabinets. Some players did choose it instead of Mesa cab used for years! smile.gif He focused on construction that will handle tons of low end and will keep it tight smile.gif If everything goes ok I'll have one soon.

Currently I'm using handmade Clamor 4x12 with 2x greenback and 2 x v30. This cab was made by my "golden hand" friend smile.gif It's very tight! He has a gift to do things like this. He's very precise.


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As You can see on the photo it's all covered with diamond aluminium case. Speakers are mounted on the front panel which can be unscrewed to modifi speakers connections. When I did some speakers tests I was angry as hell because It was so damn hard to fit this panel back into the rest of cab. Even a very tiny angle doesn't let You to press it inside. Seems like he cut it perfectly:)

This post has been edited by Darius Wave: Jul 12 2013, 08:30 AM


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Mertay
post Jul 12 2013, 09:03 AM
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+1

Actually the current software tech of replicating cab. is very weak compared to amps.

What I did for the computer solution is getting the responce of 2-3 ir's I like and replicate them (visually) on an eq smile.gif I try not to use too many bands, the benefit is I can tweak it much better than an ir. I actually like min.-phase eq's more compared to the ir sound.

But this and nothing is replicating the cab.s movement, the newest thing is they add distortion to simulate breakage tongue.gif Though I've seen on youtube processors like axefx seems to have some parameters about this but I never had the chance to examine one.

What I really like about a real cab. is (besides character) its actually more forgiving when playing technical stuff. Even with huge gain with rediculously highout pickups its much easyer to control what you want to hear from the guitar.



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Darius Wave
post Jul 12 2013, 02:00 PM
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QUOTE (Mertay @ Jul 12 2013, 08:03 AM) *
+1

Actually the current software tech of replicating cab. is very weak compared to amps.

What I did for the computer solution is getting the responce of 2-3 ir's I like and replicate them (visually) on an eq smile.gif I try not to use too many bands, the benefit is I can tweak it much better than an ir. I actually like min.-phase eq's more compared to the ir sound.

But this and nothing is replicating the cab.s movement, the newest thing is they add distortion to simulate breakage tongue.gif Though I've seen on youtube processors like axefx seems to have some parameters about this but I never had the chance to examine one.

What I really like about a real cab. is (besides character) its actually more forgiving when playing technical stuff. Even with huge gain with rediculously highout pickups its much easyer to control what you want to hear from the guitar.



I always explain to myself that guitar amp instead of simulation has no problem with interpretation of things we didn't that weren't expected by the algorithm smile.gif


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jul 13 2013, 01:15 AM
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Interesting thread! I haven't used Axe ultra or Kemper, but moving from Pod to a real Mesa Boggie with a good cabinet is mind blowing. However my cabinet is something that is in the list of things to change/improve because I don't feel that I get the best of my amp with it. I have a Marshall 1960b but It doesn't sound as good as a Mesa Boogie 4x12 with Celestion V30 speakers. However, as you said, Mesa Boogie cabinets are too pricey and I could afford one yet, so I have to find another option.


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Todd Simpson
post Jul 13 2013, 02:16 AM
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I'm sure it's great for SIX STRING work smile.gif But kinda misses the point of where I'm heading with all this. For anything beyond six string work, you have to either use special gear, (like the GENZ BENZ) or just use software/modeling and simulate it. Per the next post, the Frequency facts don't lie. smile.gif Low B on a 7 string is around 65HZ, so it takes a ported cab with drivers that can reach down to 65HZ to faithfully reproduce it. Or you can run direct like Meshuggah and use the P.A Subwoofers to handle the low range. smile.gif

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Jul 12 2013, 03:29 AM) *
Unfortunately unlike many of my guitar friends I don't play games, either don't watch fantasty movies so...hmmm I would have problem to help You tongue.gif

Currently I'm using handmade Clamor 4x12 with 2x greenback and 2 x v30. This cab was made by my "golden hand" friend smile.gif It's very tight! He has a gift to do things like this. He's very precise.


I hate to be contradictory here to the post quoted directly below this, but my experience has been the exact opposite. smile.gif I think perhaps there is a steep learning curve and various other factors (using a boost pedal or preamp/pre eq etc.) that make software tones really able to sound far and away better in terms of 7/8 string guitar response. If you are willing to put in the time and experiment, you can get shockingly rich/thick tones using some simple gear (I use a 20 db boost direct box and pre eq the signal on my interface) and a cheap plugin that would take 10k plus of "real" hardware to replicate.

Of course, this isn't for everyone. As with many things, everyone has a bit of a different take. What I"m talking about in the post above is that most guitar cabs have a HUGE FALLOFF AROUND 100 HZ. and even a regular 6 string open by itself rings at about 80 HZ

If you are playing a 7 string guitar, the low B is well below what a standard speakers like a CELESTION V30 was EVER designed to handle. So the hard reality is that you either have to use software and simulate a rig that can handle it, or buy speciality gear. Thus, the GFLEX which is responsive down to 65 HZ


If all this talk of frequency range/HZ is a bit too technical, and especially if you play a 6 STRING GUITAR, this thread is not going to be very helpful IMHO. This is more about Extended Range Instruments and the simple fact that guitar gear was never designed to deal with signal that low.

Thankfully, things like the GENZ BENZ GFLEX have much better low end reach than a standard cab. Otherwise, it would be Software only smile.gif


QUOTE (Mertay @ Jul 12 2013, 04:03 AM) *
+1

Actually the current software tech of replicating cab. is very weak compared to amps.

What I did for the computer solution is getting the responce of 2-3 ir's I like and replicate them (visually) on an eq smile.gif I try not to use too many bands, the benefit is I can tweak it much better than an ir. I actually like min.-phase eq's more compared to the ir sound.

But this and nothing is replicating the cab.s movement, the newest thing is they add distortion to simulate breakage tongue.gif Though I've seen on youtube processors like axefx seems to have some parameters about this but I never had the chance to examine one.

What I really like about a real cab. is (besides character) its actually more forgiving when playing technical stuff. Even with huge gain with rediculously highout pickups its much easyer to control what you want to hear from the guitar.


I agree 100 PERCENT on this smile.gif The POD is almost a TOY compared to a real MESA with Good Cab. The Kemper however, is IMHO able to sound just as good as the mesa through a nice cab or even direct. That's the miracle of the Kemper smile.gif Comparing the kemper and the pod is almost like comparing a Toyota Camry against a Lamborghini Diablo smile.gif

The GENZ BENZ cab is one of the few options I've found thus far that will easily handle detuned 6 string and natural 7 string without crapping out and without costing a crazy amount. This cab was $300 U.S. and you can stack them so if need be I can get a second cab. The 2x12 is a bit tighter than the 4x12 according to my research so far and much easier to transport.

The only other options I've found that can cut it for really low/downtune/7/8string are

Mesa 2 or 4 x 12
Orange 2 or 4 x12
VADER 4 x 12 (which are not made anymore)
ISP THETA (which uses a powered 15 inch woofer)
RANDALL LOS LOBOTTOM (Powered 2x12 guitar sub)
and a new cab by Schecter with 3 x12 and a built in 12 inch sub with cross over. (which isn't released yet)
http://www.schecterguitars.com/Amplificati...nt-Cabinet.aspx

Sadly, all of these options are either too pricey or too rare or both. So My goal was to find something sonically similar and avoid anything non ported and avoid Vintage 30s at all costs simply because I have cabs/speakers for that range already.

I'm sure this all sounds a bit odd for folks who are very happy with their V30 loaded cabs, just as I"m happy with my jaguar loaded randall. IT's really just about trying to hear in a cabinet what I hear through a full range system with sub doing direct recording with plugins. Once I step in to the real cab world, the bottom just gets carved off IMHO. Hopefully the GENZ will fix that smile.gif It's got a great build, cheap, not that hard to find, and has killer low end response. I"ll make some recordings once it shows up smile.gif

Todd





QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jul 12 2013, 08:15 PM) *
Interesting thread! I haven't used Axe ultra or Kemper, but moving from Pod to a real Mesa Boggie with a good cabinet is mind blowing. However my cabinet is something that is in the list of things to change/improve because I don't feel that I get the best of my amp with it. I have a Marshall 1960b but It doesn't sound as good as a Mesa Boogie 4x12 with Celestion V30 speakers. However, as you said, Mesa Boogie cabinets are too pricey and I could afford one yet, so I have to find another option.


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jul 13 2013, 02:22 AM


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Mertay
post Jul 13 2013, 10:55 AM
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The house will shake biggrin.gif

This is good food for thought; before and during my capacitor tests (not tone knob, when inserted directly to pickup it cuts low-end depending on capacitor value) I did some tests and remember for the guitar chain its a wierd area. Cutting always works as we do in studio but adding wasn't easy to manage.

I'd guess many cab.s don't go that low cause they want focus to the mid.s otherwise the lower notes won't be (harmonically) reflected, to example it; its about being able to hear the bass or kick on tiny laptop speakers. Its actually pretty cool if the GENZ cab.s can do this while delivering such a low-end, engineering-wise I bet that wasn't easy to acheve.

Let us know how it turns out smile.gif

Edit; Just adding if it might help; if I'd wanted depth I'd fool around adding narrow band eq to 20-30 hz area. It's not to expect the cab to deliver that frequency but to manipulate the movement of the cone. Mastering engineers some-what do the opposite to give more presence to a track so I'd expect it to work but be careful about levels as not damaging the cone forcing for such movement.

This post has been edited by Mertay: Jul 13 2013, 11:07 AM


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jul 15 2013, 01:51 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 12 2013, 10:16 PM) *
I agree 100 PERCENT on this smile.gif The POD is almost a TOY compared to a real MESA with Good Cab. The Kemper however, is IMHO able to sound just as good as the mesa through a nice cab or even direct. That's the miracle of the Kemper smile.gif Comparing the kemper and the pod is almost like comparing a Toyota Camry against a Lamborghini Diablo smile.gif

The GENZ BENZ cab is one of the few options I've found thus far that will easily handle detuned 6 string and natural 7 string without crapping out and without costing a crazy amount. This cab was $300 U.S. and you can stack them so if need be I can get a second cab. The 2x12 is a bit tighter than the 4x12 according to my research so far and much easier to transport.

The only other options I've found that can cut it for really low/downtune/7/8string are

Mesa 2 or 4 x 12
Orange 2 or 4 x12
VADER 4 x 12 (which are not made anymore)
ISP THETA (which uses a powered 15 inch woofer)
RANDALL LOS LOBOTTOM (Powered 2x12 guitar sub)
and a new cab by Schecter with 3 x12 and a built in 12 inch sub with cross over. (which isn't released yet)
http://www.schecterguitars.com/Amplificati...nt-Cabinet.aspx

Sadly, all of these options are either too pricey or too rare or both. So My goal was to find something sonically similar and avoid anything non ported and avoid Vintage 30s at all costs simply because I have cabs/speakers for that range already.

I'm sure this all sounds a bit odd for folks who are very happy with their V30 loaded cabs, just as I"m happy with my jaguar loaded randall. IT's really just about trying to hear in a cabinet what I hear through a full range system with sub doing direct recording with plugins. Once I step in to the real cab world, the bottom just gets carved off IMHO. Hopefully the GENZ will fix that smile.gif It's got a great build, cheap, not that hard to find, and has killer low end response. I"ll make some recordings once it shows up smile.gif

Todd


Thanks for sharing this stuff Todd. What speaker is close to V30? Somebody told me about some Eminence models but I haven't try them...


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thefireball
post Jul 15 2013, 04:28 AM
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I haven't found as many cabs that were as good as the ones in POD.


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Todd Simpson
post Jul 15 2013, 11:54 PM
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I'm interested to see if the low frequency response is more about the custom driver (built by Eminence) or the ported cab. Either way, I"m just glad it will go low enough to actually reproduce a seven string faithfully smile.gif

QUOTE (Mertay @ Jul 13 2013, 05:55 AM) *
The house will shake biggrin.gif
This is good food for thought; before and during my capacitor tests (not tone knob, when inserted directly to pickup it cuts low-end depending on capacitor value) I did some tests and remember for the guitar chain its a wierd area. Cutting always works as we do in studio but adding wasn't easy to manage.
..



Most of the speakers I"ve examined seemed loosely based on the v30 as it was such a benchmark. In reading about various speakers, many compare themselves directly to the v30 and define themselves on they are slightly different. Mostly, these drivers are designed to handle the standard range of a 6 string instrument.

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jul 14 2013, 08:51 PM) *
Thanks for sharing this stuff Todd. What speaker is close to V30? Somebody told me about some Eminence models but I haven't try them...



I haven't found any so far (still waiting on the BENZ) that sound as good as the ones in OVERLOUD smile.gif So I hear ya! In overloud my fav is the SLO cab which is a Soldano 2x12. Sounds just AMAZING. Zero fizz, huge thick tone, just a killer sound. I went looking for one in the real world and found out pretty quickly that they are not only rare, but crazy pricey. I can see why though smile.gif

QUOTE (thefireball @ Jul 14 2013, 11:28 PM) *
I haven't found as many cabs that were as good as the ones in POD.



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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jul 16 2013, 01:45 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 15 2013, 07:54 PM) *
I haven't found any so far (still waiting on the BENZ) that sound as good as the ones in OVERLOUD smile.gif So I hear ya! In overloud my fav is the SLO cab which is a Soldano 2x12. Sounds just AMAZING. Zero fizz, huge thick tone, just a killer sound. I went looking for one in the real world and found out pretty quickly that they are not only rare, but crazy pricey. I can see why though smile.gif



mm I see... things are even more pricey here so I'll check Eminence speakers and then I'll tell you about them.


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Todd Simpson
post Jul 16 2013, 04:20 PM
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If you want a speaker from Eminence that can handle detune/7 string stuff, check out the 12 inch PATRIOT COMMONWEALTH. The magnet is HUGE 108oz and it works down to 50hz and 225 Watts each smile.gif So it's a wrecking ball. Just a beast of a speaker. Adding just one to a cab with a crossover, is something I"m thinking about doing myself with one of my older cabs.

here is a link.

http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-d...Commonwealth_12

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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jul 15 2013, 08:45 PM) *
mm I see... things are even more pricey here so I'll check Eminence speakers and then I'll tell you about them.


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jul 16 2013, 04:24 PM


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