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> Sammetal92 - Mixing Quest
Darius Wave
post Jul 26 2013, 10:00 PM
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Hi the mate. Let's work on improving Your mixes. Let's start from some very basic things. At first we have to find why guitars sound more like a mono. For that purpose You have to shoe me and descripe WHOLE signal chain of any guitar. To get good doubled rhythm guitars You have to remember that You can't send all the guitar tracks to just one plug-in /channel or group. Every guitar has to gave independent amp sim and independet Kefi. Both amp sim and Kefir can be MONO...but plugged on every single track of guitar.

At first leave only two tracks of guitars so we could easily find the reason of Your problem. Try to mix them 100% left + 100% right and send me (post attachment) only guitars mixed to stereo.


Just a little reminder to make shure. Doubled guitars power is based on two guitar tracks with exactly the same part BUT played twice. You record part 1 and throw it to the lef. Then You go to the beginning and once again record the same thing...then pan it 100% right. Copying guitar tracks doesn't give the effect. You have to play and record same part twice and then mix it together. Understood ?smile.gif


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sammetal92
post Jul 26 2013, 10:19 PM
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I'm not home at the moment so, till I get home you'll have to wait for me to get my hands on my guitars tongue.gif

I found the problem just by reading your opening post, I didn't record the guitar parts separately, I just made 2 tracks, put the same effects on both of them, panned one to 100 right and the other to 100 left and hit the record button on both of them and recorded both channels at the same time mellow.gif


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Darius Wave
post Jul 26 2013, 11:41 PM
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QUOTE (sammetal92 @ Jul 26 2013, 09:19 PM) *
I'm not home at the moment so, till I get home you'll have to wait for me to get my hands on my guitars tongue.gif

I found the problem just by reading your opening post, I didn't record the guitar parts separately, I just made 2 tracks, put the same effects on both of them, panned one to 100 right and the other to 100 left and hit the record button on both of them and recorded both channels at the same time mellow.gif




That's what I thought smile.gif This is the whole secret of making doubled guitars. Even if You're very precise there will always be some tiny differances in dynamics, timming and articulations that will make it sound like two guitars together. This is also one of the best methods of trying out Your skills. If You can record something in double and it still is clear and easy to catch each note, than You're sure You mastered the lick. Copying the tracks is nothing else like switching from mono to stereo. I'm glad we found the problem.

Even if You record the same track twice You can still mess things uop by sending both to a one, grouped amp sim. Treat each track with independent amp sim, cab sim and pan but....You can save some CPU usage by sending both track to a common group track with common,stereo reverb, compression and eq smile.gif


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sammetal92
post Jul 27 2013, 12:15 AM
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But what about bass and lead guitar? I don't think they should be panned, because from what I understand, bass and lead guitars should be in the center space of the song rather than the sides. Am I right?

Also, you said we can group the tracks into one to put on final effects like reverb and equalization, but we would still have to have the exact same settings on the stack on both of the guitar tracks, right?


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Darius Wave
post Jul 27 2013, 12:37 AM
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1. Yes...bass and lead guitar goes to the center.

2. More details needed. It depend on particular situation. Same reverb setting and eq for rhythm guitars (one melody riff twice on two tracks L/R) - YES. Other instruments...it depends. We will go to that to but not too many at the same time. When You'll be back home send me guitars in stereo...I mean only the rhythm distortion guitars panned L/R. We will do this step by step...Otherwise You won't get the point smile.gif We'll go back to the reverbs soon smile.gif First I have to get stereo track og raw guitars panned correctly. We will talk about EQ-ing then. Time for reverb and compression is later smile.gif


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sammetal92
post Jul 27 2013, 08:53 AM
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I actually went ahead and experimented with 4 and 2 tracks. I panned 60% left and right to the middle tracks in the 4 quad tracking file. The reverb is only on the 100% left and right tracks, even in the quad tracking file.

Attached File  dual_tracking.mp3 ( 938.57K ) Number of downloads: 86

Attached File  quad_tracking.mp3 ( 938.57K ) Number of downloads: 63


Oh, and no equalization and nothing applied on the guitars, just the raw guitar track with distortion and cab simulation on it, with just a hint of compressor.

And yes, this time I played and recorded on individual tracks 4 times biggrin.gif it did make a lot of difference smile.gif

This post has been edited by sammetal92: Jul 27 2013, 08:54 AM


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Darius Wave
post Jul 27 2013, 10:06 AM
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Now it's how it should be ! smile.gif Nice and warm guitar tone. I see You want the quad guitar tracks so much so...let it be but remember...There more times You record the same part, the precise You have to be. I think You should focus and give 200% from You too record those guitars precicely as hell. Otherwise the image of the lick is blurry.


Please turn off the compressor. I'll show You some trick. Now the problem is that regular compression decreases the whole frequency renage volume while there is a boost only in some low end. This is why the attack dissappear while You do the palm muting. We're gonna treat it other way. We need some multiband compressor. Have You got any plug-in like this?


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sammetal92
post Jul 27 2013, 10:11 AM
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I have a basic compressor VST from Audiocation called AC-1: https://www.audiocation.de/plugin

I couldn't understand Reaper's stock compressor plugin. If you can give me the link to a good one, that'll be great because I don't know much about compressors, they always seem to confuse me, so I keep them simple smile.gif


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sammetal92
post Jul 27 2013, 11:10 AM
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The multiband compressor that comes with Reaper is ReaXComp, it is supposedly good according to internet reviews. But I never understood compressors completely, let alone multiband compressors.


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audiopaal
post Jul 27 2013, 11:12 AM
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I'm sorry to interrupt, but since you are talking about compressors... smile.gif

I don't really know of any great free multiband compressors, but that one is really cheap and should work nicely on a guitar track.
The SSi Pro Compressor, which is on sale for 9$.
http://www.pluginboutique.com/product/8-Co...-Pro-Compressor

However, this is a great free Bus Compressor: http://varietyofsound.wordpress.com/2012/0...mastering-grade/ smile.gif

This one you put on your bus track (stereo out) when you are mixing your song. Makes your mix tighter smile.gif

Oh, and if you want a compresoor that works for anything you should save up some money and buy this: http://www.softube.com/index.php?id=cc
Expensive, but works magic on any track smile.gif

I just mixed Incipit's Promo album: https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=dm7bAxZrm2I

So If Darius don't mind I can help out a bit as well if you want.

Again, I'm sorry if this is out of place, just thought I'd try to help out a little smile.gif
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sammetal92
post Jul 27 2013, 11:54 AM
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Not at all audiopaal smile.gif thanks loads for sharing all those plugins, I'm gonna look into them and see what I can get smile.gif

Nice work there, you really know your mixing and mastering tongue.gif it'd be great if I can get help from everyone who can give help biggrin.gif

I was just saying that generally, compressors confuse me, even though I know their function, I know stuff about attack, release, output gain, soft knee etc etc. but still applying them is confusing to me, but I think I'll get the hang of it when I experiment enough smile.gif


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audiopaal
post Jul 27 2013, 01:38 PM
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QUOTE (sammetal92 @ Jul 27 2013, 12:54 PM) *
Not at all audiopaal smile.gif thanks loads for sharing all those plugins, I'm gonna look into them and see what I can get smile.gif

Nice work there, you really know your mixing and mastering tongue.gif it'd be great if I can get help from everyone who can give help biggrin.gif

I was just saying that generally, compressors confuse me, even though I know their function, I know stuff about attack, release, output gain, soft knee etc etc. but still applying them is confusing to me, but I think I'll get the hang of it when I experiment enough smile.gif

Thanks smile.gif
No problem, you can also have a look at these: http://www.wavosaur.com/vst/multiband-compressor-plugins.php
Free multiband compressor VTSs. I haven't tried them myself, but you might be able to put them to good use smile.gif

Thanks man, appreciate it. We recorded that in their rehearsal room. Mic'ed up everything and recorded.
14-16 mics only on the drumkit, hehe.. Quadtracked both guitars (with two mics on eah take) etc.
Each song had 40 tracks, so the mixing took a while. It sounds quite different now, than right after the recording smile.gif
From what I had to work with, I must say it sounds pretty good.

I'll see if I can write an explanation on compressors if you want, but it won't be today.

We'll get you up and running, son't you worry about that smile.gif
I can also post some pre and post EQ/Comp/effects examples if you like and you can hear what it actually does to a track.
But I'm quite busy this weekend so it'll have to wait.

Good luck smile.gif

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audiopaal
post Jul 27 2013, 03:35 PM
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This is a great link explaining Multiband Compressors, with audioclips for reference.
http://audio.tutsplus.com/tutorials/mixing...-and-mastering/
Should give you a good overview of what a multiband compressor do smile.gif

I can give you a list over the compressors, eqs, effects I like to use when mixing and mastering if you like.
Some of them are quite expensive, but it'll give you a good idea of what I use when I mix songs.
And you can search online for free alternatives (or I can help you find them) to try for yourself.

Waves, Softube and Abbey Road are my go-to tools when mixing.
I use some other stuff as well, but I'll get back to that in a longer post in a few days smile.gif
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sammetal92
post Jul 27 2013, 03:55 PM
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Woah! Thanks for sharing those, they seem pretty neat! biggrin.gif

And sure mate, anytime you can, but I wouldn't want you to spend that much time just so I can understand compressors tongue.gif I'll give that tutorial a read smile.gif

Sure, if you can, please give me the list of the stuff you use for mixing and mastering, that'd be loads of help to me, because I really don't know anything about mixing and mastering other than equalization laugh.gif I will be asking you for help whenever I need to find any of those free alternatives, but I'll try looking for them myself first, get myself some training cool.gif

I just downloaded a demo version of EZMix, WeePee told me to try it out cause its good for us bedroom musicians tongue.gif but I haven't yet installed it. Have you tried it?

Thanks again! smile.gif


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Darius Wave
post Jul 27 2013, 03:59 PM
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Your plug-in help is very useful. If I could only ask to not mes about the mixing - I don;t want to make this thread to many things at the same time. I want to do each thing step by step with lots of details so Sammetal92 will understand the machanism of making mixes. I know that it's hard to resist to try explain everything in one post but pleas TRY TO RESIST biggrin.gif I did taht way in the work in progress topis and I saw that Sammetal92 needs veyr detailed help step by step. I don;t mind helping with adding links to some helpfull stuff smile.gif Akai VST pack has a Quadcomp, which is probably one of the best free multibands our there smile.gif

QUOTE (audiopaal @ Jul 27 2013, 02:35 PM) *
This is a great link explaining Multiband Compressors, with audioclips for reference.
http://audio.tutsplus.com/tutorials/mixing...-and-mastering/
Should give you a good overview of what a multiband compressor do smile.gif

I can give you a list over the compressors, eqs, effects I like to use when mixing and mastering if you like.
Some of them are quite expensive, but it'll give you a good idea of what I use when I mix songs.
And you can search online for free alternatives (or I can help you find them) to try for yourself.

Waves, Softube and Abbey Road are my go-to tools when mixing.
I use some other stuff as well, but I'll get back to that in a longer post in a few days smile.gif



Yep..I would go for C4 too smile.gif


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audiopaal
post Jul 27 2013, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE (sammetal92 @ Jul 27 2013, 04:55 PM) *
Woah! Thanks for sharing those, they seem pretty neat! biggrin.gif

And sure mate, anytime you can, but I wouldn't want you to spend that much time just so I can understand compressors tongue.gif I'll give that tutorial a read smile.gif

Sure, if you can, please give me the list of the stuff you use for mixing and mastering, that'd be loads of help to me, because I really don't know anything about mixing and mastering other than equalization laugh.gif I will be asking you for help whenever I need to find any of those free alternatives, but I'll try looking for them myself first, get myself some training cool.gif

I just downloaded a demo version of EZMix, WeePee told me to try it out cause its good for us bedroom musicians tongue.gif but I haven't yet installed it. Have you tried it?

Thanks again! smile.gif


No problem mate smile.gif

I will, I love to talk about mixing anyway so I don't mind spending time in your thread smile.gif
Haven't tried EZMix, I'm not a particular fan of a multiplugin that does everything like the EZMix and iZotope Ozone.
Although the iZotope Ozone is pretty great, I like to make it hard for myself to learn better laugh.gif

It looks good though, the EZMix, so go nuts, I'd love to hear some samples!
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sammetal92
post Jul 27 2013, 04:11 PM
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QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Jul 27 2013, 02:59 PM) *
Your plug-in help is very useful. If I could only ask to not mes about the mixing - I don;t want to make this thread to many things at the same time. I want to do each thing step by step with lots of details so Sammetal92 will understand the machanism of making mixes. I know that it's hard to resist to try explain everything in one post but pleas TRY TO RESIST biggrin.gif I did taht way in the work in progress topis and I saw that Sammetal92 needs veyr detailed help step by step. I don;t mind helping with adding links to some helpfull stuff smile.gif Akai VST pack has a Quadcomp, which is probably one of the best free multibands our there smile.gif

Yep..I would go for C4 too smile.gif


Hahah yeah, too much of everything can be dangerous tongue.gif So I think I'm gonna stick to the Buzzroom Grandcomp 3 the ReaXcomp and the Akai quadcomp compressors for now tongue.gif I'll try investing in a good compressor later on when I'm experienced enough smile.gif

QUOTE (audiopaal @ Jul 27 2013, 03:00 PM) *
No problem mate smile.gif

I will, I love to talk about mixing anyway so I don't mind spending time in your thread smile.gif
Haven't tried EZMix, I'm not a particular fan of a multiplugin that does everything like the EZMix and iZotope Ozone.
Although the iZotope Ozone is pretty great, I like to make it hard for myself to learn better laugh.gif

It looks good though, the EZMix, so go nuts, I'd love to hear some samples!


Sure thing smile.gif

This post has been edited by sammetal92: Jul 27 2013, 04:16 PM


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audiopaal
post Jul 27 2013, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Jul 27 2013, 04:59 PM) *
Your plug-in help is very useful. If I could only ask to not mes about the mixing - I don;t want to make this thread to many things at the same time. I want to do each thing step by step with lots of details so Sammetal92 will understand the machanism of making mixes. I know that it's hard to resist to try explain everything in one post but pleas TRY TO RESIST biggrin.gif I did taht way in the work in progress topis and I saw that Sammetal92 needs veyr detailed help step by step. I don;t mind helping with adding links to some helpfull stuff smile.gif Akai VST pack has a Quadcomp, which is probably one of the best free multibands our there smile.gif

Yep..I would go for C4 too smile.gif


Sure thing, I'll stay out of the mixing part smile.gif
I'll post some links to great plugins if I have any for the stuff you are discussing.

I'm gone, *poof* tongue.gif
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sammetal92
post Jul 27 2013, 05:05 PM
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Okay, I just tried out the Akai Quadcomp (it was lying around on my hard drive since my brother used it a while ago, but I never really touched any of those plugins), I put it on the master tracks for both clean and distorted guitars, but it made that annoying popping and clicking noise. I thought it must be the buffer size, so I increased it all the way upto 2048 samples, but it had no effect on the popping noise.

So I then tried the Grandcomp 3 plugin, its working fine at the moment, also the ReaXcomp, it works fine too, I tried a few presets. Both of them ran great at 380 samples at 9ms latency, no popping sounds at all. I don't know if its a compatibility issue of the Akai plugins or what, but they don't seem to run perfectly on my computer.


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Darius Wave
post Jul 27 2013, 05:37 PM
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The reason why we HAVE TO do very little steps is EXACTLY because You're not able to judge anything objectively yet. Plug-ins don't do the job just by turning them on. Each track demand indyvidual treatement. One of the basic mixing rules is to not "overuse" things like compression and eq. Also...instrument sound good as a standalone is not a success. You succeed while everything works together.

I feel You just turned on the Quadcomp, hear how it sound on factory preset, didn't like and turned off. WRONG. Factory preset is worth nothing. Multibands and eq are very fragile tool so before judgin You have to understand what it does and what all the parameters do. From What You wrote I think You have no idea yet. Maybe a bit of treshold but...it's not enough.


Once You understand how to work with multiband , You'll easily handle any other plug-ins because it's not the plug-in that's problem itself.


Without precise adjustment multiband is not working correctly. First of all....the purpose


1. THE PURPOSE - in our case we want to get rid of low end boost while palm muting. We DON'T WANT the multiband to affect any other frequency ranges. So first of all...TURN OFF compression of first 3 (looking from the top) levels. Leave only the lowest one. Then...move the range set-up to make it compress above 200 Hz.


Attached Image

Now THE MOST IMPORTANT.

If You don't have it already, just install some spectrum analyzer - VOXENDO SPAN is one of the best free...maybe even best.

Plug it on the the master track of the WHOLE SESSION.

What we need to do is to make eqal both....open strings low level and pal muted strings low level. Use the TRESHOLD know to find the spot, where both levels will be pretty eqal...watching the spectrum analyzer.


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