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> Sammetal92 - Mixing Quest
sammetal92
post Jul 27 2013, 06:24 PM
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This is as close as I could get without taking details out of the palm muted riff at the end:

Attached File  dist_rhythm_guitars_with_compressor.mp3 ( 922.04K ) Number of downloads: 51


The threshold level is at -20dB on the compressor. And I installed Voxengo Span, it showed the most output from the rhythm guitars at 106Hz when I palm muted.

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Darius Wave
post Jul 28 2013, 12:44 PM
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First thing of all...Those guitars have some weird Computer-liek tone...This is probably something wrong with the phase.

1. Did You plug the multiband for each guitar track independently?
2. Please make One file where first minute would be guitars WITHOUT akai and then WITH...for better comparison. For me the low end sound more tight right now...


Also what is this pickup position...sound very muddy like a neck...

Akai can have problems with operating on more than one track. This could be the reason. But...whis was only to show You have to use multiband. Now You can try some of Audiopal's linked plug-ins and find the one, that's interface feesl most friendly to You. Set the new multiband on each guitar track and try to do exactly the same thing - turn off all other ranges and leave it working only on the low end.

First exapmle was to show You what is the purpose. Now try to adopt it to different plug-ins of the same function smile.gif


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sammetal92
post Jul 28 2013, 02:26 PM
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Yep, I noticed the robotic effect. That's Quadcomp. The phase is exactly as it was before, I double checked it.

1. Nope, if I tried that, the popping noise comes back, I put the multiband at the master track of the distorted guitars.
2. Here, the first time the riff is played, the guitars have akai quadcomp on. The second time, quadcomp is completely off.

Attached File  quadcomp_on_off.mp3 ( 1.14MB ) Number of downloads: 50


The pickup is a humbucker at the bridge position.

I tried Grancomp 3, the effect is very subtle compared to quadcomp, but this is what I got nearly the same settings as they were on quadcomp (the mid and high frequency compression turned off):

Attached File  with_Grancomp3.mp3 ( 873.67K ) Number of downloads: 60


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Darius Wave
post Jul 28 2013, 05:15 PM
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1. Second sample is ok. We leave the Quadcomp for now. I would also try to set lower treshold for more compression. We need pal muting to make the "poooff" effect and it means that the attack is more important than the low end. Low and is a false feeling of energy and it covers the lack of attack in palm muting. That's why on the huge cabinet You can feel the pal muting is powerfull but it's the recording that uncovers every details that need some work. The whole palm muted moments in the mix are supported by the bass and bass drum (usually) so Yoiu will feel the power of them even if the guitars lack the low end. If not...the problem is somewhere else. I can already say Your tone is very muddy as for the bridge pickup. Please make a screen of Your guitar track settings. It could be a matter of gain setup or amp simulation.

Also please send me two separated tracks of guitars "dry" signal so I can mess with some simulations at my pc and find where is the problem


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sammetal92
post Jul 28 2013, 06:09 PM
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I'll try the same settings with ReaXcomp compressor too, see if that gets us somewhere.

Here are my distorted guitar settings, I put the TSE to boost the signal into Poulin soloC, then loaded an impulse in LeCab 2:

Attached Image

These are the raw guitar tracks in wave format, I took the raw files from my project folder, they're a bit big in size:

Left track: Attached File  01_Rhythm_Guitar_Left_130727_1224.wav ( 5.47MB ) Number of downloads: 45

Right track: Attached File  02_Rhythm_Guitar_Left_130727_1227.wav ( 4.93MB ) Number of downloads: 35


I know they both say left, but the right one was recorded on the left track then moved to the right track.

This post has been edited by sammetal92: Jul 28 2013, 06:17 PM


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Darius Wave
post Jul 28 2013, 06:53 PM
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Now i know what's going on.


First of all...unfortunately palm muting is a thing You need to work on...it's too soft and the notes are not separated enough

Seconf thing gain amount is too big

Third. Add some more treble boost in the TSE808

4th...make sure nothing interferes You your pickups with electro-magnetic field...I hear too much noise even when I descrease the gain. Maybe use better chord or move away from the m,onitor or computer while recording (anything with transformer)


5th...Your guitar coiuld be muddy...what guitar is use in the recording?


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sammetal92
post Jul 28 2013, 07:57 PM
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I have a fan running near me, and the light plus the computer. All those could be causing interference. The guitar goes directly into the line in port of my computer's sound card.

I use a handmade guitar, I have my ESP M-II near me but its tuned to standard. Here, I recorded the riff in stereo with my ESP M-II and turned its pitch down by 1 semitone, there's no equalization or compression or any other effects than the ones I showed you that make up my tone (TSE808, LeCab2 and SoloC):

Attached File  esp_m_ii_recording__no_eq_or_comp_.mp3 ( 891.43K ) Number of downloads: 49


I have another FX chain saved which uses Ignite amps for a softer but still overdriven rhythm tone with very low bass, would you like me to post the riffs with that? Or I can show you the screenshot of that chain too.

EDIT: Oh, I also turned the tone knob on the TSE808 at 3 o clock, and turned the Overdrive knob on the amp to 2. I just tested the guitar tracks in my song project and they fit a lot better in the mix than before.

This post has been edited by sammetal92: Jul 28 2013, 08:23 PM


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Darius Wave
post Jul 29 2013, 01:27 AM
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So You are using PC buil-in soundcard or You own any external audio interface? Soundblaster's line in also causes a lot of noise. Tomorrow I'll send You a screen of some settings suggestions and comparison with guitars recorded by me. You will have both in the same tracks so You could refer to it while trying to find best playing way (playing is the key). don' be afraid to "hit your guitar like a man" biggrin.gif I think You can play twice as hard as You do now. Those palm muted notes are playd way too soft.

As for the plug-ins I already found that for rhythm guitars with 1on-pres5 imulse You can asily go down to zero with the middle knob of the am. i also switched off the boost option. My gainset up is "0" on SOLO C . because I use more boost from the TS808 to affect the treble response with the treble knob about 3/4 position.


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sammetal92
post Jul 29 2013, 01:36 AM
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Yep, I'm using my PC soundcard and exactly, the line in has too much noise along with the fan, light and computer stuff going on sad.gif

I'm looking into buying a cheap interface, I really like the demos and reviews of behringer ucg102 guitar to usb link, it has almost no noise compared to the direct line in noise I get. In addition to the DI noise, my tone gets some weird coloration too, so its not totally clean, you might have noticed that as well in the raw guitar tracks.

And thanks for the settings and the sound clips mate smile.gif

So you think I should use the my M-II for this?


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Darius Wave
post Jul 29 2013, 10:11 AM
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So wedetected the first, very important thing that needs improvement - audio recording device. Yes - I've noticed weird tone, sort of treble cut and too much noise but I have a feeling (hard to confirm virtually) that Your guitar has a warm and fat tone. This demand less gain, more treble on the booster or amp, more middle cut, much more power from the right hand ...If You want to get nice and "fast" tone with crunchy pal muting.

You can also try to use thin pick like 0,73 and press so hard that it will rest on the next string after the hit


Here are my samples:


1. Screen of the plug-ins

Attached Image


2. Your and mine guitars mixed through those settings


Attached File  sammetal92_darius_example.mp3 ( 1.99MB ) Number of downloads: 65




3. Raw guitar Direct sound L and R file so You could have a reference files for getting better tone and signal level just by changing Your playing method.

Attached File  sammetal92_darius_left.wav ( 6.22MB ) Number of downloads: 35


Attached File  sammetal92_darius_right.wav ( 6.22MB ) Number of downloads: 28


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sammetal92
post Jul 30 2013, 06:46 AM
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I'll give you a recording as soon as I get something good to record with man, I don't want to throw so many mp3 files at you tongue.gif


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Darius Wave
post Jul 30 2013, 09:59 AM
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I get it smile.gif It's good idea. Otherwise You'll be never sure if it's You who need to make better playing or it's the gear that doesn't sound ok


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sammetal92
post Aug 2 2013, 11:52 AM
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Sorry for the long delay tongue.gif Here's how it sounds, I did a bit of tweaking, I tried to pinpoint the bass frequencies we wanted to take out, using my car's stereo, my computers sound system and my heaphones.

Oh any my dad made a USB interface for me which I made this with cool.gif I thought I'd save some money for an M-Audio interface, so I didn't buy any interface yet, I'll buy the M-audio as soon as I can.

Attached File  retake.mp3 ( 873.67K ) Number of downloads: 84



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Darius Wave
post Aug 2 2013, 01:55 PM
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Sound much better! Much more clarity! Great work! Now...show me the beast that's in You. Gimme the hardest picking on palm muted notes as possible and do the mix again biggrin.gif


Please...do one more track.Add the bass with NO EQ so I can see how it sounds dry. We'll go to bass eq soon smile.gif


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sammetal92
post Aug 3 2013, 07:39 PM
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I spent so much time today training myself to hit the strings as hard as possible without them getting out of tune, because once I hit them too hard and they went a whole step flat in tuning laugh.gif I guess I don't know my own strength tongue.gif

Here is what I just recorded. Its not perfect palm muting but I think its a bit better than before smile.gif Same file name as before but its a different recording.

Attached File  retake.mp3 ( 873.67K ) Number of downloads: 47


Here's the bass without any equalization, I think I need to record bass directly into my sound card without using my interface. My interface lowers the volume of the guitar signal so that the effects can come in without boosting it too much that it clips. I tried to keep it as loud as possible, but this isn't as good as it was with the direct line in:

Attached File  bass_take_raw.mp3 ( 873.67K ) Number of downloads: 41


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Darius Wave
post Aug 4 2013, 12:50 PM
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QUOTE (sammetal92 @ Aug 3 2013, 06:39 PM) *
I spent so much time today training myself to hit the strings as hard as possible without them getting out of tune, because once I hit them too hard and they went a whole step flat in tuning laugh.gif I guess I don't know my own strength tongue.gif

Here is what I just recorded. Its not perfect palm muting but I think its a bit better than before smile.gif Same file name as before but its a different recording.

Attached File  retake.mp3 ( 873.67K ) Number of downloads: 47


Here's the bass without any equalization, I think I need to record bass directly into my sound card without using my interface. My interface lowers the volume of the guitar signal so that the effects can come in without boosting it too much that it clips. I tried to keep it as loud as possible, but this isn't as good as it was with the direct line in:

Attached File  bass_take_raw.mp3 ( 873.67K ) Number of downloads: 41



I'll go to the bass analysis later...As for the guitars I think that now they have more noise but it's not a hum anymore. As for the palm muting more samples needed (sorry) tongue.gif Please try to make a one file comparison between interface and line-in signals mixed through the same plug-ins set-up. Try to move Your right hand a bit towards the neck pickup so You'll get more percussive tone and less muddy sound. Make sure Your guitar knobs are fully turned to max becase traditional, passive guitar electronics has some treble loss on the volume pot when decreasing the volume. It affects the palm muting.

We're doing this to find out the better option - line in or interface and also we are working on the most IMPORTANT thing ever - tone from You gear before making any mixing. This is soo important and that's why I want to give in maximum attention smile.gif I hope You understand smile.gif


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sammetal92
post Aug 4 2013, 01:36 PM
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QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Aug 4 2013, 11:50 AM) *
I'll go to the bass analysis later...As for the guitars I think that now they have more noise but it's not a hum anymore. As for the palm muting more samples needed (sorry) tongue.gif Please try to make a one file comparison between interface and line-in signals mixed through the same plug-ins set-up. Try to move Your right hand a bit towards the neck pickup so You'll get more percussive tone and less muddy sound. Make sure Your guitar knobs are fully turned to max becase traditional, passive guitar electronics has some treble loss on the volume pot when decreasing the volume. It affects the palm muting.

We're doing this to find out the better option - line in or interface and also we are working on the most IMPORTANT thing ever - tone from You gear before making any mixing. This is soo important and that's why I want to give in maximum attention smile.gif I hope You understand smile.gif


That's the plugin I think, because I turned the volume knob all the way off and there was still that noise, because my interface wasn't picking up the overdrive from the plugins, I turned up the drive knob to a little over 2 on my amp (soloC). I'll try changing my position to see if it sounds better, and my guitar's knobs are almost always all the way up tongue.gif

Would you recommend active pickups? Because I'm working on a preamp, that should take away the noise generated by the guitar cable and less interference from pickups. All the noise that would remain after that would be the plugins smile.gif I didn't use any noise gate on the recording, if I use a noise gate, that noise goes away, should I use the gate?

And I will get you another take right after I practice my palm muting today smile.gif hopefully we'll see some improvement.

EDIT: Oh one more thing: I noticed I get a much more deeper bass on line in than my interface on my guitar, the interface keeps the treble.

This post has been edited by sammetal92: Aug 4 2013, 01:37 PM


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Darius Wave
post Aug 4 2013, 01:49 PM
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Jus make a comparison I mantioned and we'll make a choice. I can recomend to make some tests with Your angle and distance from the PC, monitor etc. Sometimes it's enough when You turn around about 90 degress to the monitor. You can Try to mess a bit with the line in input level in thw windows settings.


As for the active pickups it's a matter of choice. They have some advantages but also some things not to be ok for some players. Main advantage is the minimum level of noise because the coil is very tiny. But don't consider they will fix anything more than the signal level and noise.


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sammetal92
post Aug 4 2013, 04:09 PM
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Okay here it is, the first riff is the one recorded via interface, the second one is direct input via line in:

Attached File  retake_interface_linein.mp3 ( 1.17MB ) Number of downloads: 42


Regarding the noise issue, I quite like Audacity, even though it won't be very good for editing full songs. I used Audacity on the riff recorded via interface and used the noise removal to remove 20db of the noise, I think the result is pretty neat. I don't think this much noise would be a problem, it can be removed through software without compromise on quality, but I personally think the tone of my guitars is rich compared to direct line in:

Attached File  retake_nonoise.mp3 ( 583.26K ) Number of downloads: 38


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Darius Wave
post Aug 4 2013, 09:00 PM
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No when You made this comparison I have a problem because the line input is much more noiseless...Even some of the hum is gone that had been there before. But You're right about the treble. Is there any chance to increase the input level from the interface? Also...I think You could try to add a bit of gain now. I have a weird feeling that there is still a bit more You could do at the instrument stage. Have You tried tin piks like 0,73? You press them that hard as they slip to rest on the next string from the one You actually play on smile.gif Can You make a sample with:

1. Denoised guitars via Audacity plug-in
2. A little more gain from the SoloC
3. Thinner pick involved



You can also try to use TSE X50 plug in...very good attack even with a bit muddy inpout tone

This post has been edited by Darius Wave: Aug 4 2013, 09:01 PM


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