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Todd Simpson
post Jul 29 2013, 05:10 PM
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I recently spent WADS of money buying a rack full of gear.
Digitech GSP1101 with foot controller
ROCKTRON Chameleon 2000
5 different overdrive boxes to try
Rocktron velocity power amp
Genz Benz 2x12 cab
etc.

and NONE OF IT can come even close to the tone I can get from overloud. IT's just shocking. I thought for sure I could build a live rig with my desired tone it with this gear. Nope. Now I"m thinking of running one of my ipad guitar sims on an effect loop with the gsp 1101.

This has been a serious wake up call as to how much I"ve come to adore the tone I can get out of software vs the tone I can get with gear I know really well and used to think sounded killer. OBVIOUSLY, none of this gear is a KEMPER or AXE FX. But I"ve used these pieces before and been very happy with results. But...I"ve been seriously spoiled by overloud/amplitude/guitar rig after finding the secret sauce (adding a 20db boost active direct box, reducing 100hz at the mixer to kill flubby bass, etc.) I"m finding I really miss the software tone when I go to "real" gear that I used to adore.

Anyone else run in to this?

Onward!!
Todd


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jul 29 2013, 05:58 PM
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Hi Todd! this is a very interesting thread. I'm curious about the details that your secret sauce. What direct box are you using before the software and what difference do you note?

Also... what happens with dynamics when you are playing rhythm guitar mostly in metal?


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sammetal92
post Jul 29 2013, 09:14 PM
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Todd, can you please not keep the secret sauce secret any more? tongue.gif I'm really in need of good tone please biggrin.gif


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Todd Simpson
post Jul 29 2013, 09:30 PM
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The direct box is a CHEAP behringer ULTRA DI PRO rack mount, active unit. It has a 20 DB boost on it (the secret sauce is that it's a full range clean boost, it doesn't have a mid range hump like a stomp box so it boosts all frequuencies evenly, from deep bass to high treble)

Link to their web site (These run about $100)
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DI4000.aspx
Attached Image


***** This is CRUCUAL imho for working with sims. You need to hit the front end of a software amp sim pretty hard to get the kind of high gain sound you would from a big amp. Not to say a tubescreamer won't do the trick. It will!!! But, overdrive pedals are very mid range focused and for 7 and 8 string/downtuned stuff, the mids can sometimes get in the way. So for ERG (extended range guitar) stuff, I prefer the DI BOX. For 6 string stuff, I have JOYO/NUX/PRO TONE overdrives (any of which work fine).

But thats not all!!!!!!


SUPER SECRET SAUCE smile.gif (PRE EQ)


As many folks know, adding an eq before you go to your sim/amp is a game changer. Without cutting some of the lows at the front end, sims can easily sound flubby/boomy/crappy and not very tight. So after the 20db clean boost, I use the EQ on my Interface/Mixer to shave 25% off of 100HZ (the LOW knob is set to 100)

This creates a very TIGHT djenty sound. So thats the secret to getting your sims/plugin amps to sound spiff IMHO smile.gif Works for me!! smile.gif

Attached Image

Here are a couple of demos. Here is a DJENTY sort of high gain patch. Notice that it's not flubby/boomy.

https://soundcloud.com/techniqueswithtodd/six-demon-bag-preview-presolo


This is a VAN HALEN type sound I built. The preset is in my preset thread in my personal board.

https://soundcloud.com/techniqueswithtodd/vanhalenish-patch-overloud-th2

So yeah, Secret Sauce!
1.)Full Range Boost, 10-20 DB (for ERG)
2.)Cut 100 HZ on input before sim, about 25%.



GET THIS!!! YOU CAN SKIP THE RACK DI AND THE MIXER!!! IF.........

You can do all of this with one piece of gear if you have one. It's called a SANSAMP PARADRIVER. I just ordered one! smile.gif It has the full range boost and a parametric EQ built in!!! Used they are about $150 U.S.

Attached Image


DON"T FORGET DYNAMICS!!!!




As gabe mentioned, "what do you do about dynamics? Playing high gain?". Good question!!!! The good news is, if you apply the secret sauce, you can use the volume knob on the guitar itself to starve the chain of just a smidge of gain and the amp sim will react like a tube amp would since it's getting plenty of signal, it just adds in some sag/bounce when you pull back. Here is a sample of a BRUNETTI tube amp setup with the volume knob pulled back a bit. Very dynamic smile.gif

https://soundcloud.com/techniqueswithtodd/overloud-th2-brunetti-head-and

Attached Image






So you can use this thing live with an amp, or with your laptop/plugins. It takes the place o my rack mount di box and takes the place of my mixer doing the pre eq. And it's a handy small stomp box. smile.gif


QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jul 29 2013, 12:58 PM) *
Hi Todd! this is a very interesting thread. I'm curious about the details that your secret sauce. What direct box are you using before the software and what difference do you note?

Also... what happens with dynamics when you are playing rhythm guitar mostly in metal?


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jul 29 2013, 09:40 PM


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Taka Perry
post Jul 29 2013, 11:02 PM
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My bad if I'm mistaken, but isn't it possible to chuck an EQ and compressor plugin before overload in your DAW? I do this all the time (different amp sim) and get some pretty heavy distortion smile.gif


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sammetal92
post Jul 30 2013, 04:38 AM
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Woah, thanks Todd, that's a lot of good stuff just in one post ohmy.gif That SansAmp DI I can probably get my hands on it for around $100 used here, I'm gonna look around biggrin.gif

Other than that, I never EQ'd before going into my amp, I'm gonna try all of that!

Thanks loads cool.gif


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Spock
post Jul 30 2013, 05:29 AM
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Hey Todd, just curious, do you have a recording of the iPad generated tone you are wanting to emulate in your rig, I'd be interested in knowing.
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pdf64
post Jul 30 2013, 10:07 PM
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QUOTE
You need to hit the front end of a software amp sim pretty hard to get the kind of high gain sound you would from a big amp


20dB of clean boost on most pickups may cause the analog input (that feeds the A/D converter) to clip, which may add something else, another variable, to the mix.
If the system in use doesn't clip 'nicely' then a distortion pedal may give better results.
Pete


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sammetal92
post Jul 30 2013, 11:44 PM
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QUOTE (pdf64 @ Jul 30 2013, 09:07 PM) *
20dB of clean boost on most pickups may cause the analog input (that feeds the A/D converter) to clip, which may add something else, another variable, to the mix.
If the system in use doesn't clip 'nicely' then a distortion pedal may give better results.
Pete


Now that I think of it, I agree with Pete, but since you never had any problems with your setup, Todd, I suppose you don't have this issue? huh.gif


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Todd Simpson
post Jul 31 2013, 05:03 AM
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PLEASE SHARE SOME SAMPLES!! smile.gif Sadly, in my experience the results are not as good. It's the same idea but feeding the daw a signal that has been pre eq'd seems to yield a different sonic result than using an eq in the path in software before the plugin. I know it sounds odd. But that's been my experience.

But, if you don't have the other gear, and you do have an eq plugin, then it beats nothing. It's what I started out doing before I went to hardware EQ and boost.


QUOTE (Taka Perry @ Jul 29 2013, 06:02 PM) *
My bad if I'm mistaken, but isn't it possible to chuck an EQ and compressor plugin before overload in your DAW? I do this all the time (different amp sim) and get some pretty heavy distortion smile.gif



If you can grab a PARADRIVER (not the bass driver) get one!! smile.gif They are great pedals. They also do wonders for going straight in to your DAW.

Let me know how your eqe tests go smile.gif

Todd


QUOTE (sammetal92 @ Jul 29 2013, 11:38 PM) *
Woah, thanks Todd, that's a lot of good stuff just in one post ohmy.gif That SansAmp DI I can probably get my hands on it for around $100 used here, I'm gonna look around biggrin.gif

Other than that, I never EQ'd before going into my amp, I'm gonna try all of that!

Thanks loads cool.gif



I'm mostly talking about OVERLOUD TH2 which is not running on my iPad. There is no stand alone ipad app for it yet. I"m talking about running it as a plugin inside of my DAW (reaper/logic) .

I posted three separate sound samples in the original post to illustrate, see them up there? The soundcloud embeds are the tones from my TH2 experiments smile.gif

I really like JAMUP as guitar sim on the ipad. It comes very close to TH2. My next experiment is to run my ipad in an fx loop from my GSP1101 and incorporate JAMUP as my distortion for my live setup. smile.gif


Todd


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QUOTE (Spock @ Jul 30 2013, 12:29 AM) *
Hey Todd, just curious, do you have a recording of the iPad generated tone you are wanting to emulate in your rig, I'd be interested in knowing.


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jul 31 2013, 05:16 AM


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Amp360
post Jul 31 2013, 02:24 PM
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I have found the trick with getting amp sims to sound good is to run proper impedance into your interface. A quality direct box with a variable impedance will do a lot of good.

Still have not found a sim I like as well as the real amps. Although they do have their place. I have AxeFX, Guitar Rig 5 and Eleven (full TDM version).


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Todd Simpson
post Jul 31 2013, 10:37 PM
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Well said smile.gif I use my direct box and go out XLR in to my interface. Helps quite a bit.

As for amps/sims, it really does depend on how you treat the signal before it hits the sim. Just like pre treating a signal with a tube screamer before it hits a big tube amp, the secret sauce is prepping signal IMHO. At this point, I have not found any amps that I like better than TH2 but I keep trying new amps smile.gif


Todd
QUOTE (Amp360 @ Jul 31 2013, 09:24 AM) *
I have found the trick with getting amp sims to sound good is to run proper impedance into your interface. A quality direct box with a variable impedance will do a lot of good.

Still have not found a sim I like as well as the real amps. Although they do have their place. I have AxeFX, Guitar Rig 5 and Eleven (full TDM version).



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