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verciazghra
post Sep 8 2013, 08:45 AM
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Okay here comes the swedish bastard with no expertise in American politics whatsoever and who should, quite frankly, probably stay the horse out of your business.

I've always found this to be an interesting subject. Mainly because economy in and of it self is non-existant and everybody still believes in it. Money is "made up" by banks in the 60s when the gov of america needed to buy more stuff then they could afford. That's when, as far as what I've been able to gather, money went from being an exchange of a service/goods to being "made up" creating incredible amounts of debt. I know it doesn't solve much to say, "hey your god doesn't exist you know that right??", but way too many people take these things for granted. As well as the innate human drive for war, recent a rather larg group of archeological experts and sociological historians think that we do not HAVE such an innate drive. Tribes may have fought and killed, but the evidence suggest that these were very rare occurances.

With that out of the way, there's so many things wrong with the picture we're getting all around the world. Economy and marketing drives this world by filling our heads with pseudo-truths, I see it everyday. I actually started taking notes of the headlines of local newspapers, which goes in an extremely diabolic circle. Health tips one day(usually on a monday), some tragedy the next day, and the all powerful friday Weekend Snack Recipe interspersed with mixtures of hate-crimes, war-news, random current infection and so on. I did this for about 4 months till I started being able to predict the next days headlines with about a 70% accuracy.

Okay so I'm a nutcase I'm extremely critical towards how society is built, the only reason tho is that society, and thereby humanity as a whole, doesn't cater to the well-being of it's inhabitants first and foremost. It caters to the unquestioned development of technology and economy, and it does so by enslaving everyone inside it. What's the difference between a whip and societies heavy demands on us? There's a point to the whip.

(Great hearing you guys talk, sorry for making a sub-par comment with my thoughts on the subject, much love to you all. PEACE)


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jstcrsn
post Sep 8 2013, 12:23 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Sep 8 2013, 07:43 AM) *
CRSN, are you talking about CAR INSURANCE? smile.gif Then yes, I feel my liberty is being infringed!! The govt making me buy car insurance is against my beliefs smile.gif Oh wait, Health insurance? hmm. I want to risk permanent indebtedness to a hospital and go without health insurance! By golly! smile.gif When I have a car wreck, let them bill me!! smile.gif

In all seriousness, affordable health care is something I think everyone deserves to be honest, just as they deserve affordable car insurance smile.gif And affordable Homeowners insurance, renters insurance, etc. smile.gif

here is a link to an article in the WASHINGTON POST with hard info on the REAL COSTS for what folks will pay with obamacare. It's looking like I'm going to SAVE MONEY!!! Woohooo!!!: )

first off you talk about my source and then you give me some guys blog for your source, come on man.and Please remember you thinking it will cost less and I just want to put a bug in your ear to watch how hard it is to get to the doctor if this is ever fully implemented and I will do the same , if it works out you can say I told you so- if not(doesnt, matter we will we so screwed)
I am going to be honest , Obamacare is the biggest slap in the face to a libertarian that you can have and the way you talk about it sounds like you love it. Under it you say the government has the right( to the point of jailing me) to come into my home take what I have and give it to some one else, IS THIS WHAT YOU MEAN BY LIBERTY.

How would you answer this "to each according to his needs , from each according to his abilities"

and just how much do you pay for health care now, if you don't mind me asking

This post has been edited by jstcrsn: Sep 8 2013, 12:24 PM
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jstcrsn
post Sep 8 2013, 12:58 PM
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A little on the W Post. sold for 250 million http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-08...ff-bezos-graham

after it was worth 1 Billion because it became a leftist leaning hack paper and people stopped getting it

The free market never lies

This post has been edited by jstcrsn: Sep 8 2013, 12:59 PM
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AK Rich
post Sep 8 2013, 04:53 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Sep 7 2013, 10:43 PM) *
CRSN, are you talking about CAR INSURANCE? smile.gif Then yes, I feel my liberty is being infringed!! The govt making me buy car insurance is against my beliefs smile.gif Oh wait, Health insurance? hmm. I want to risk permanent indebtedness to a hospital and go without health insurance! By golly! smile.gif When I have a car wreck, let them bill me!! smile.gif

In all seriousness, affordable health care is something I think everyone deserves to be honest, just as they deserve affordable car insurance smile.gif And affordable Homeowners insurance, renters insurance, etc. smile.gif

here is a link to an article in the WASHINGTON POST with hard info on the REAL COSTS for what folks will pay with obamacare. It's looking like I'm going to SAVE MONEY!!! Woohooo!!!: )

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkbl...nder-obamacare/






Some fine points rich smile.gif I think we are actually not that far apart in political terms. The tea party does embrace many things near and dear to the Libertarian heart so to speak. It does split off with marriage rights for any and every adult/persuassion, legalizing various substances and hobbies etc. But the core bits are pretty close smile.gif

I agree in full that the "left" newsies are NO BETTER than the right. And in fact, I take a big dose of all of them and then sort out the actual "news" for myself. I've found that by adding BBC WORLD NEWS and AL JAZEERA AMERICA news to the mix that it broadens the perspective quite a bit. Just CNN, or FAUX news just isn't enough info to actually have a valid base of information IMHO but sadly the politics are such that many folks that watch one never watch the other.

I also agree that limitless spending is just silly. However, we are now in the echoe of the 2008 crash which is still acting as a weight on the entire economy and causing a myriad of ancillary issues affecting growth/jobs which would just be too boring to go in to and i"d need charts and a little slide rule. As such, I honestly think now is not the time to tighten the belt but instead focus on "core research" funded by tax dollars that led us to such things as the Internet, Space Travel, etc. The core research is what allows business to create new markets from scratch and have a competitive advantage imho.

The real problem, as you mentioned, is the balooning entitlement spending and 10,000 baby boomers a day retiring and leaving the tax base. Social security/medicare/medicaid is the nail in our coffin waiting for a hammer and sadly I don't see a way around it. Not to be all "doom and gloom" but nobody is going to get elected saying "old people, we are cutting your benefits!". smile.gif

Todd

Maybe social security wouldn't be in trouble if the democrats had not led the charge to tap into in and pilfer it away by adding it to the general fund years ago?
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Todd Simpson
post Sep 9 2013, 09:52 AM
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THE WASHINGTON POST is "Some guys Blog"? Come on carson!!! smile.gif It's one of the few semi trusted sources I know off. It's the freaking Washington Post.


So not, not using a blog, just trying to point you to the original work on the Washington Post smile.gif Thats where the info came from. So yeah, it's pretty legit smile.gif I know it doesn't jive with the whole "obamacare is gonna send us to the poor house" but to be honest, that always seemed a bit alarmist didn't it? The numbers I"m seeing indicate it's going to be very affordable and we will finally be able to give health insurance to our citizens and honestly as the only "rich" nation without national health care, I have to say it's about time.

And I hate to bring you right back to the CAR INSURANCE argument, but you never addressed it? So yeah, if they can make us buy vehicle insurance under the premise that it's more to protect others, the same thing can be said for health care in terms of overall cost. People that don't have health care are the main reason people do pay so much. Hospitals are required to treat people even without insurance. Those costs get spread to people that do pay. That in turn pushes rates up. So not having health care is directly impacting everyone who does. sad.gif

From the libertarian view, GOVT is there to do "what people can't do by themselves" like build roads, schools, an army, social security, and finally national health care coverage smile.gif So it's not a slap in the face, it's a long overdue responsibility that govt is finally taking seriously despite the health care lobby spending crazy money to shut it down. The fact is that it will actually SAVE money and COST everyone less. I hate to say it but it's a good thing smile.gif

Speaking of liberty. How do you feel about being told you "have to" buy MORTGAGE insurance if you try to buy a home without 20% down? Car insurance no matter how save a driver you are? Somehow those things don't count? smile.gif

Try to stay calm and let's just see what the actual reality is when OBAMACARE hits as it's the LAW OF THE LAND and all data looks like it's going to be a very positive thing. There is no evidence to the contrary so far, just lots of hype of how "horrible" it will be sad.gif I don't buy in to that sort of stuff.

As for my health care costs, they are more than what the actuary tables say someone in my bracket will pay. The subsidies take the costs down quite a bit and it's very affordable. I think that's the hardest part for some folks to accept. I do watch right and left wing news and I've seen all the "this will be a disaster" reports but none have any hard data. Only conjecture.




QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Sep 8 2013, 07:23 AM) *
first off you talk about my source and then you give me some guys blog for your source, come on man.and Please remember you thinking it will cost less and I just want to put a bug in your ear to watch how hard it is to get to the doctor if this is ever fully implemented and I will do the same , if it works out you can say I told you so- if not(doesnt, matter we will we so screwed)
I am going to be honest , Obamacare is the biggest slap in the face to a libertarian that you can have and the way you talk about it sounds like you love it. Under it you say the government has the right( to the point of jailing me) to come into my home take what I have and give it to some one else, IS THIS WHAT YOU MEAN BY LIBERTY.

How would you answer this "to each according to his needs , from each according to his abilities"

and just how much do you pay for health care now, if you don't mind me asking


Left leaning hack paper? Crsn, oh crsn. sad.gif They went broke the same way every other paper in the country is going broke. NEWS PAPERS ARE A DEAD BUSINESS. They were slow to go digital and it killed them.

But if that source is no good for ya, (because the article indicated that obamacare would be affordable? Right?) we can use a different one. Pick any legit news source and we can use that smile.gif But I mean a real news source, not a right wing blog or fox or left wing blog or msnbc. So pretty much, the New York Times, or maybe The Economist? But I'm open to suggestion :


QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Sep 8 2013, 07:58 AM) *
A little on the W Post. sold for 250 million http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-08...ff-bezos-graham

after it was worth 1 Billion because it became a leftist leaning hack paper and people stopped getting it

The free market never lies



QUOTE (AK Rich @ Sep 8 2013, 11:53 AM) *
Maybe social security wouldn't be in trouble if the democrats had not led the charge to tap into in and pilfer it away by adding it to the general fund years ago?


Rich my buddy! Straight to the blame game? I've heard lefties to the same thing of course and say something like

".....because the republicans deregulated and caused the 2008 financial crisis which nearly crushed the world economy......"

From a balanced view, both "parties" have done things to get us where we are or we would not be here. There is plenty of blame to go around right?

Just from an objective point of view, the issue of impending collapse due to rapidly expanding entitlements and rapidly diminishing tax base is undeniable. It's an issue that no amount of blame will fix. As a Libertarian, I support everyone's right to get what they are due and do not want to see Social Security go broke.

I'd even take a tax increase if it meant they could balance the books and take care of our elderly and those less fortunate via medicare/medicaid.

What we need is a fresh approach and some truly new ideas. Then we need some cooperation in Congress. Gridlock does not serve the will of people IMHO.


*here is a chart from the CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE with our current and projected revenue and costs. As you can see, it looks flat out GRIM.


Attached Image


Todd


QUOTE (verciazghra @ Sep 8 2013, 03:45 AM) *
Okay here comes the swedish bastard with no expertise in American politics whatsoever and who should, quite frankly, probably stay the horse out of your business.

Okay so I'm a nutcase I'm extremely critical towards how society is built, the only reason tho is that society, and thereby humanity as a whole, doesn't cater to the well-being of it's inhabitants first and foremost. It caters to the unquestioned development of technology and economy, and it does so by enslaving everyone inside it. What's the difference between a whip and societies heavy demands on us? There's a point to the whip.

(Great hearing you guys talk, sorry for making a sub-par comment with my thoughts on the subject, much love to you all. PEACE)


Very interesting stuff smile.gif Thanks for joining in!! I was watching Fareed Zakarea GPS on CNN and he talked about budget deficits here and there. America's deficit is 5.7 percent, Sweden's is one-eleventh that amount at 0.5 percent. And that the govt has been shrinking recently and is now 6th largest in europe behind france and has moved more to an efficient market economy and has one of the highest standards of living in the world.

In short, I really wish our govt would take the hint and start doing things a bit more like Sweden. Of course, the "old" mentality was that Sweden a huge socialist time bomb, but that's the kind of propoganda we get here. In truth, if we could reduce our deficit, increase our standard of living, reduce unemployment and provide health care to everyone, we too might have a country like Sweden smile.gif

I couldn't help but notice you had a deep sense of avoiding war which is seen as a Swedish trait to some degree smile.gif We are pretty quick to jump in to conflict here, as our country was born in conflict, it almost feels un natural to us if we don't have someone/something to fight. I wish it wasn't that way, but it sort of is. I really hope we can learn to value peace as much as we value our "presidential prestige" or whatever excuse is on deck to put us in the next skirmish.

This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Sep 9 2013, 09:54 AM


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Todd Simpson
post Sep 9 2013, 10:30 AM
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P.S. I found this "NEWS I.Q" quiz from the PEW RESEARCH CENTER and I thought the choice of questions was very curious. Some folks HATE the news and some folks watch/read wads of it. Which side to you lean towards? If you score less than 50 percent, you are toward the "NOT A NEWS FAN" side, if you score above 50 percent, you are toward the "NEWS JUNKIE" side smile.gif I"m a bit of a news junkie.

*No cheating on the quiz, try to answer from memory smile.gif


Here is the link.


http://www.pewresearch.org/quiz/the-news-iq-quiz/

and my results.
(NEWS JUNKIE!)

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jstcrsn
post Sep 9 2013, 01:04 PM
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the whole car insurance, pi insurance thing is all of my own choosing, the government pays to pave the roads , they don't force me to buy a car and drive on them , they say if you would like the convenience of driving on them, help us pay for there maintenance.
My choosing- P.M. , My choosing

interstate commerce and protecting our borders were the bonds of the federal government , the states had soveriegn rights( for the rest) that have been taken away with the power grab from washington,
Benjamen Franklin said " People who give up liberty for security, Deserve neither"
you give up your liberty for health insurance and social security . Don't mince words ,wiki pedia's definition of libertarian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism 3 tenets of libertarian, liberty.2 freedom, 3 voluntary association= nothing about health care or social security as you described earlier. you are not a Libertarian,true Libertarians never give the government power over their choices like your examples earlier- who I want to marry, what drug I want to do or dont do, just to be honest .I know what all these answers are, I just wanted to show you thru them where your true heart lies. Not that it matters, but when someone calls themselves something that they disprove by their actions I'll call them on it

and you never answered my question, should the government (thru force of imprisonment ) come into my house , take what I have and give it to another

as far as the Paper, I say its a hack , you say its liget, that won't go nowhere

This post has been edited by jstcrsn: Sep 9 2013, 01:42 PM
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Todd Simpson
post Sep 9 2013, 03:43 PM
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Not really though you have to admit. As you said they are "requiring you to enter in to a contract with a third party". It's the law you have no real choice. So if this is something you can accept for car insurance, what is any different about health insurance? There isn't any difference. sad.gif Both are required by law for you to enter in to a third party agreement, so there's that then smile.gif Onward!

And buying car insurance doesn't help pave roads as you know. Taxes pave roads. Car insurance goes to insurance companies the same way health insurance money goes to health insurance companies. Nothing to do with road paving smile.gif

As for being a "true" libertarian. I"d say yes I"m one smile.gif Your argument here isn't very clear. Your saying I'm not a libertarian because I believe in Social Security? My "true heart" lies in exactly the things I've stated to be honest smile.gif I do (personally) believe in governments role to do for people what they can't do for themselves (that's me personally, not a libertarian thing) and Social security is IMHO one of those things.

As for marriage and such, as long as we are quoting wiki, you should read this. You are a bit confused on Libertarian positions on same sex marriage etc. This is a break point with the Tea party/Right Wing in terms of core beliefs but such is life. The libertarian view is that any two adults of any persuasion should be able to get married and be treated the same as any other couple under the law. After all, marriage is a civil union under the law so it's a basic civil right wink.gif Personally I have a traditional view of marriage. But that doesn't mean the govt should treat folks with non traditional views any differently. same taxes, same laws etc. That's the libertarian view smile.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_perspectives_on_LGBT_rights

ANSWER TO QUESTION ABOUT GOVT ARREST:

NO. smile.gif The Govt should not come to anyones house and take what they have and give to another. That would be wrong, wouldn't you agree?

This is usually where I get something like "that's what obamacare is" or "thats what taxes/unemployment is". But that's not really true either one must admit. Those are programs lawfully designed by our elected officials. We can always elect different officials and change the laws to our liking smile.gif

Back to the Newspaper. As I said, pick any paper you like wink.gif Or any new source. Just skip the really righ/left ones. smile.gif Or we can leave news out as a primary source. That's fine too smile.gif

Ok then smile.gif There's all of that sorted! That wasn't so bad was it?

I must say though for an "independent" you sure do come with all of the same arguments I get from folks on the faaaaarrr right wing when talking politics. I mean no offense here, just noticing the same arguments, Very "anti obama", "anti national health care" and such. As a Libertarian, I'm not very "anti" on anything other than the idea that personal choices (not choices that impact the many, but choices that impact the few or the one, like whether to consume illicit substances/engage in questionable personal moral decisions/ etc.) are beyond the purview of the govt. So I'm "anti prohibition" on most everything that is currently prohibited by law for few/one. smile.gif

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Sep 9 2013, 08:04 AM) *
the whole car insurance, pi insurance thing is all of my own choosing, the government pays to pave the roads , they don't force me to buy a car and drive on them , they say if you would like the convenience of driving on them, help us pay for there maintenance.
My choosing- P.M. , My choosing

interstate commerce and protecting our borders were the bonds of the federal government , the states had soveriegn rights( for the rest) that have been taken away with the power grab from washington,
Benjamen Franklin said " People who give up liberty for security, Deserve neither"
you give up your liberty for health insurance and social security . Don't mince words ,wiki pedia's definition of libertarian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism 3 tenets of libertarian, liberty.2 freedom, 3 voluntary association= nothing about health care or social security as you described earlier. you are not a Libertarian,true Libertarians never give the government power over their choices like your examples earlier- who I want to marry, what drug I want to do or dont do, just to be honest .I know what all these answers are, I just wanted to show you thru them where your true heart lies. Not that it matters, but when someone calls themselves something that they disprove by their actions I'll call them on it

and you never answered my question, should the government (thru force of imprisonment ) come into my house , take what I have and give it to another

as far as the Paper, I say its a hack , you say its liget, that won't go nowhere


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jstcrsn
post Sep 9 2013, 04:18 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Sep 9 2013, 03:43 PM) *
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_perspectives_on_LGBT_rights

ANSWER TO QUESTION ABOUT GOVT ARREST:

NO. smile.gif The Govt should not come to anyones house and take what they have and give to another.

I must say though for an "independent" you sure do come with all of the same arguments I get from folks on the faaaaarrr right wing when talking politics. I mean no offense here, just noticing the same arguments, Very "anti obama", "anti national health care" and such. As a Libertarian, I'm not very "anti" on anything other than the idea that personal choices (not choices that impact the many, but choices that impact the few or the one, like whether to consume illicit substances/engage in questionable personal moral decisions/ etc.) are beyond the purview of the govt. So I'm "anti prohibition" on most everything that is currently prohibited by law for few/one. smile.gif


I don't have to drive, I can live close to work and walk, ride the bus, but i get to choose.
opps, I did misspeak about the insurance, I meant certain taxes and government is necessary as far as roads and me driving on them , but I still don't have to get a car, many in New York don't , the government does not make them
And I agree about the whole marriage thing as far as they don't force my child in 1 st grade to read . "bill has 2 daddies", thats the problem they keep forcing and destroying my liberty with theirs.
as far as being independent, I am more libertarian than you think, the 2 things I don't agree with are making all drugs legal and the need to go outside our borders to protect them.
but getting married is not a civil right, homosexual or hetero, you do not have a civil right for an action other than those expressly written in the Constitution , and I can see your heart and nothing is wrong, but all this extra reaching and control by our government is not a libertarian view
and as far as them coming into the house, what do you think happens when you can't pay your tax bill(as ruled by the supreme court), they come to your house and take your stuff until its paid, if you don't have enough to pay , you go to jail for tax evasion, thats why Obamacare has 16000 new IRS agents( why are new agents in a health care bill)

and what is far right
I dont want to be over taxed or forced to do what I don't want to do

if Obamacare works I will concede, if it fails will you

and 1 more ?, anything our government has control of thats works ?

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klasaine
post Sep 9 2013, 04:29 PM
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Even if you don't have a car - unless you walk to the farm that produces the food (on a dirt path), cut down the tree to get wood, quarry the stone, mine and smelt the metal, generate the electricity, provide for sewage disposal, etc. ... by yourself (?) ...
You do use the roads (infrastructure).


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AK Rich
post Sep 9 2013, 04:30 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Sep 9 2013, 12:52 AM) *
THE WASHINGTON POST is "Some guys Blog"? Come on carson!!! smile.gif It's one of the few semi trusted sources I know off. It's the freaking Washington Post.


So not, not using a blog, just trying to point you to the original work on the Washington Post smile.gif Thats where the info came from. So yeah, it's pretty legit smile.gif I know it doesn't jive with the whole "obamacare is gonna send us to the poor house" but to be honest, that always seemed a bit alarmist didn't it? The numbers I"m seeing indicate it's going to be very affordable and we will finally be able to give health insurance to our citizens and honestly as the only "rich" nation without national health care, I have to say it's about time.

And I hate to bring you right back to the CAR INSURANCE argument, but you never addressed it? So yeah, if they can make us buy vehicle insurance under the premise that it's more to protect others, the same thing can be said for health care in terms of overall cost. People that don't have health care are the main reason people do pay so much. Hospitals are required to treat people even without insurance. Those costs get spread to people that do pay. That in turn pushes rates up. So not having health care is directly impacting everyone who does. sad.gif

From the libertarian view, GOVT is there to do "what people can't do by themselves" like build roads, schools, an army, social security, and finally national health care coverage smile.gif So it's not a slap in the face, it's a long overdue responsibility that govt is finally taking seriously despite the health care lobby spending crazy money to shut it down. The fact is that it will actually SAVE money and COST everyone less. I hate to say it but it's a good thing smile.gif

Speaking of liberty. How do you feel about being told you "have to" buy MORTGAGE insurance if you try to buy a home without 20% down? Car insurance no matter how save a driver you are? Somehow those things don't count? smile.gif

Try to stay calm and let's just see what the actual reality is when OBAMACARE hits as it's the LAW OF THE LAND and all data looks like it's going to be a very positive thing. There is no evidence to the contrary so far, just lots of hype of how "horrible" it will be sad.gif I don't buy in to that sort of stuff.

As for my health care costs, they are more than what the actuary tables say someone in my bracket will pay. The subsidies take the costs down quite a bit and it's very affordable. I think that's the hardest part for some folks to accept. I do watch right and left wing news and I've seen all the "this will be a disaster" reports but none have any hard data. Only conjecture.






Left leaning hack paper? Crsn, oh crsn. sad.gif They went broke the same way every other paper in the country is going broke. NEWS PAPERS ARE A DEAD BUSINESS. They were slow to go digital and it killed them.

But if that source is no good for ya, (because the article indicated that obamacare would be affordable? Right?) we can use a different one. Pick any legit news source and we can use that smile.gif But I mean a real news source, not a right wing blog or fox or left wing blog or msnbc. So pretty much, the New York Times, or maybe The Economist? But I'm open to suggestion :







Rich my buddy! Straight to the blame game? I've heard lefties to the same thing of course and say something like

".....because the republicans deregulated and caused the 2008 financial crisis which nearly crushed the world economy......"

From a balanced view, both "parties" have done things to get us where we are or we would not be here. There is plenty of blame to go around right?

Just from an objective point of view, the issue of impending collapse due to rapidly expanding entitlements and rapidly diminishing tax base is undeniable. It's an issue that no amount of blame will fix. As a Libertarian, I support everyone's right to get what they are due and do not want to see Social Security go broke.

I'd even take a tax increase if it meant they could balance the books and take care of our elderly and those less fortunate via medicare/medicaid.

What we need is a fresh approach and some truly new ideas. Then we need some cooperation in Congress. Gridlock does not serve the will of people IMHO.


*here is a chart from the CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE with our current and projected revenue and costs. As you can see, it looks flat out GRIM.


Attached Image


Todd

Just giving credit where it is due my friend, Social Security was their baby to start with and I don't think it was a bad idea to begin with , taking money from each paycheck to be used in retirement, but then they jacked it all up when they saw how much money it was gathering and decided to tap into it, while not considering the future, pure and simple. So now people that have paid into it all their lives are having to scramble to find other ways to invest in their retirement before it is too late. Those people have been ripped off, and yes some republicans are to blame for it as well but it was the dems that led that charge.

Comparing the ACA with car insurance is apples and oranges , you can avoid paying car insurance by simply not driving, you have to buy health insurance simply by existing as an american citizen.

I have to agree with CRSN that the Wash Post is a partisan hack, as is the New York Times and not fit to line a bird cage.
You say you are a news junkie. Haven't you seen the tons of articles on how insurance costs are already on the rise, and how there are lots of doctors retiring early to avoid this sham called the ACA?
I do not want some government board in the doctors office with me deciding whether or not I am worthy to recieve some treatment and I sure don't want them to have access to my medical records.

The real problem with the cost of healthcare is the price of healthcare itself , once health insurance came into play, hospitals started charging whatever they wanted , it started to not be based on the actual value of the healthcare, just take a look at how much that tongue depressor cost you the next time you get a physical exam. Healthcare in this country is overpriced. although the best on the planet.
And if gov healthcare is so great in other countries , why do so many people from those countries come here for it? Because the wait is too long, or they were denied it, or the quality is poor are pretty good indicators that it is not so great.

I don't know where you are seeing the indicators of this thing being the most affordable way to go because I am seeing the opposite. Why are so many wanting to opt out and wanting exemptions, including unions? Including congressional aides?
How in the world could an insurance company charge lower rates when the risk goes up because of having to insure for pre-existing conditions?
This thing is a monstrosity that was passed in the middle of the night against the approval of the american public and pushed by an admin that has said it would be transparent and all bills would be publicly available before passing. Then we were told that they had to pass it so we could see what is in it, and to this day we still don't know everything about it.
And now huge parts of it are being delayed.

When it was being debated they swore up and down that it was not a tax. Then the Supreme Court ruled it was constitutional because it IS a tax. How does that work?

This thing was designed to fail in the first place to bring on what the left wanted all along and that is Single Payer.

This post has been edited by AK Rich: Sep 9 2013, 04:33 PM
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jstcrsn
post Sep 9 2013, 04:42 PM
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true libertarian view
http://libertarianviewpoint.com/blog/liber...s-on-obamacare/
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verciazghra
post Sep 10 2013, 03:48 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Sep 9 2013, 08:52 AM) *
I couldn't help but notice you had a deep sense of avoiding war which is seen as a Swedish trait to some degree smile.gif We are pretty quick to jump in to conflict here, as our country was born in conflict, it almost feels un natural to us if we don't have someone/something to fight. I wish it wasn't that way, but it sort of is. I really hope we can learn to value peace as much as we value our "presidential prestige" or whatever excuse is on deck to put us in the next skirmish.

That might be the shine we're trying to rub off on the world. In reality tho Sweden makes most of it's trade income supplying the world with weapons and sonar technology(for use in military operations). However, most of the population is oblivious to this fact. Personally I don't see why there should be war and why natural resources should be harvested freely. But many of my thoughts are based on what I find is moral and not. Veganism, buddhism, straight-edge, celibacy, discipline, open-heartedness, non-judgementality(hmm weird word); are all things I subscribe to. Which isn't really the norm for people from Sweden in general. The biggest concern for me is that people accept things that are of a cultural or heritagable nature at best. They don't come to their own conclusions a lot of the time, even if they think they do, and once they do they may only have one or two arguments for why they think that way, without the ability to empathically see things differently.

I like to describe it this way: People often put their beliefs on one pillar, so high that even they can't really see it. The higher that pillar is the less stable. Other people add more pillars as they learn more to strengthen their belief, and take pillars down, reconstruct; but most importantly, they keep the pillars close to the ground.

Watching documentaries like The Corporation for example may give you some start to understand how "wrong" and greed is really occupying the place which freedom used to have. It may be propaganda on it's own, but the more you watch and read, the less it seems like we're the pieces to make the changes. Like Todd says, it doesn't really matter who you vote for, for he'll be constrained by the actions of corporations and previous presidents, popular beliefs, cultures, etc. Any society seems like a good excuse for how badly humans handle complexity, and how a very few of those humans can legally enslave the others.


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AK Rich
post Sep 10 2013, 03:57 PM
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5 articles and op/ed's today concerning problems with the ACA.

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20130910...?nclick_check=1

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obamac...ple_753721.html

http://washingtonexaminer.com/report-claim...article/2535474

http://smallbusiness.foxbusiness.com/legal...=latestnews/%22

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/09/10/...-to-our-health/
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jstcrsn
post Sep 10 2013, 06:20 PM
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come on rich ,2 of those say fox, they must be wrong
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Todd Simpson
post Sep 10 2013, 10:06 PM
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Got to wrap all this up fun as it's been smile.gif Thanks for all the replies. But just to finish the thought.

One by one then!

*The car is a choice. The insurance is not. Just like Obamacare, (as I mentioned in the previous) it's a mandatory requirement by law to force you in to a contract with a third party smile.gif So it's the same things sadly sad.gif But the good news is it may save you money smile.gif


*Next up, some of the few things that separate Libertarians from Tea Party folks (though many things are very similar) is support for Gay Marriage..

---Marriage is a "Civil Union" under the law of the United States and therefore by definition a "Civil" right-- smile.gif

..which is why libtrns support it smile.gif and legalization of drugs. Prohibition didn't work for alcohol and it's failed badly for drugs. The "Borders" issue is one that seems to cross boundaries (no pun in intended) on every party it seems as position vary across parties but lean towards closed borders/quasi protiectionism the further Right one leans typically. smile.gif

So if you can come over to the legalization/equal marriage rights viewpoint, BINGO!! smile.gif But really it's flexible as the Libertarian approach is big enough to accept nearly everyone as the idea is folks can believe whatever they feel led to believe.


Onward!!! Next up, the question about break ins always precedes the bit about taxes smile.gif I'm not a "fan" of taxes personally, but I do try to follow the laws on the books when possible and as they say. "Pick your favorite govt program and eliminate it and we can reduce taxes". I enjoyed the Student Loan program quite a bit smile.gif So I try to pay my taxes and grumble a bit.

Lastly! Yes, I I have to pay ONE PENNY More than I can pay in the FREE MARKET for health care, I will be the FIRST one to protest with vigor and venom. I didn't agree to let them charge me more than market rate. THe pitch was we can insure everyone and market rates will remain so we shall see smile.gif

P.S. as for the Govt Control question, it's rhetorical. sad.gif

Ok then! I think we've settled as much as we are going to. I Hope everyone got something out of this smile.gif The entire point of democratic republics after all is the chance to voice one's thoughts in public. Now if one of us is arrested by the govt for what we've said, then we will know we have a problem!

Tod



QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Sep 9 2013, 11:18 AM) *
I don't have to drive, I can live close to work and walk, ride the bus, but i get to choose.
opps, I did misspeak about the insurance, I meant certain taxes and government is necessary as far as roads and me driving on them , but I still don't have to get a car, many in New York don't , the government does not make them
And I agree about the whole marriage thing as far as they don't force my child in 1 st grade to read . "bill has 2 daddies", thats the problem they keep forcing and destroying my liberty with theirs.
as far as being independent, I am more libertarian than you think, the 2 things I don't agree with are making all drugs legal and the need to go outside our borders to protect them.
but getting married is not a civil right, homosexual or hetero, you do not have a civil right for an action other than those expressly written in the Constitution , and I can see your heart and nothing is wrong, but all this extra reaching and control by our government is not a libertarian view
and as far as them coming into the house, what do you think happens when you can't pay your tax bill(as ruled by the supreme court), they come to your house and take your stuff until its paid, if you don't have enough to pay , you go to jail for tax evasion, thats why Obamacare has 16000 new IRS agents( why are new agents in a health care bill)

and what is far right
I dont want to be over taxed or forced to do what I don't want to do

if Obamacare works I will concede, if it fails will you

and 1 more ?, anything our government has control of thats works ?



EEGAD!! Rich! smile.gif Foxnews, and every other link coming from those, how shall I say it, ...... sources with a smidge of a Leeeaaaaaannnnnnn one particular direction?

Not to say the sources are invalid, but if I posted 6 links from MSNBC and MOTHER JONES you guys would call foul as well smile.gif

QUOTE (AK Rich @ Sep 10 2013, 10:57 AM) *



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jstcrsn
post Sep 10 2013, 10:11 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Sep 10 2013, 10:06 PM) *
[b] ---Marriage is a "Civil Union" under the law of the United States and therefore by definition a "Civil" right-- smile.gif


Just because the word civil is in it does not mean you can link to ones civil liberties
with this logic on could call it civil sex and thus be immune from prosecution in a rape case

and the things you say about fox I heard spewed from the far left as well,Todd, You are not a libertarian

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Todd Simpson
post Sep 10 2013, 10:54 PM
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Goodness!

One by one then..

First up!! Dems/GOP raiding the coffer.Well, it's undeniably true dems started social security smile.gif But the matter of which party raided it is a bit more murky. Both parties have voted FOR things that pull from the fund. Both have voted to reduce FICA taxes at certain points which reduces the amount going in to the fund. So as I posted previously, there is more than enough blame. Thankfully my party is largely blameless as we have so few people in office smile.gif


Next up!!! Obamamcare. Yes, driving a car is a choice. Buying Car Insurance is NOT. smile.gif Thus the point about the required third party etc...

And then!! NEWSIE? I watch/read wads of news from boths sides and the middle. Most of the right leaning sources are ANTI obamcare all the way. Endless reports of the death of our entire way of life. The left leaning sources mostly adore the idea. Truth per usual being closer to the middle. As it's the law of the land, I"m gonna wait and see. PRices go up, I"ll be picketing smile.gif


Todd


QUOTE (AK Rich @ Sep 9 2013, 11:30 AM) *
Just giving credit where it is due my friend, Social Security was their baby to start with and I don't think it was a bad idea to begin with , taking money from each paycheck to be used in retirement, but then they jacked it all up when they saw how much money i
..
This thing was designed to fail in the first place to bring on what the left wanted all along and that is Single Payer.



Crsn, surely to goodness? May I quote from our own Supreme Court? Far back as 1967, Loving VS Virginia


Chief Justice Earl Warren's opinion for the unanimous court held that:

Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.
---
That should do it wink.gif


QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Sep 10 2013, 05:11 PM) *
Just because the word civil is in it does not mean you can link to ones civil liberties
with this logic on could call it civil sex and thus be immune from prosecution in a rape case

and the things you say about fox I heard spewed from the far left as well,Todd, You are not a libertarian


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Sep 10 2013, 10:55 PM


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jstcrsn
post Sep 10 2013, 11:30 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Sep 10 2013, 10:54 PM) *
Next up!!! Obamamcare. Yes, driving a car is a choice. Buying Car Insurance is NOT. smile.gif Thus the point about the required third party etc...









Chief Justice Earl Warren's opinion for the unanimous court held that:

Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.
---
That should do it wink.gif

it says nothing about marriage in the amendment , I don't know why his comments talk about , the amendment was in regards to race , not sexual preferance
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv
, but as I stated in earlier posts , I don't have a problem with them getting married as long as they don't force it on my family

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Todd Simpson
post Sep 11 2013, 02:25 AM
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It was a court decision smile.gif not an amendment. sad.gif However they did reference the fourth amendment. The sentence is pretty clear. "Marriage is one of the most basic Civil Rights of Man".

They felt marriage is Mans most basic Civil Right and I must say I agree smile.gif Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness (Fourth Amendment) even allows for Bob to Marry Steve smile.gif Though I'd Rather Marry EVE, that's just me. Recently the supreme court overturned the DEFENSE OF MARRIAGE act as Unconstitutional which I have to agree, it was smile.gif I don't seek to change anyones mind, here. Just have a good conversation about the issues of the day and we've done just that! smile.gif

I do appreciate the conversation smile.gif The sands of politics are always shifting. As are the bounds of what is and isn't acceptable. I have been heartened by the overturning of the defense of marriage act, and by the number of states decriminalizing certain substances. Even though I don't personally use "drugs" nor do I drink (pretty boring I know). I feel it's everyone fourth amendment right to determine if such consumption is right for them. The momentum of legislation is heading in a direction I honestly approve of, but as I just said it's always in flux. It could head the other way in a jiffy smile.gif

However, I"ll leave it to others to have the last word after this post. smile.gif Thanks again for a very engaging thread smile.gif

Todd




Back to GUITAR!!!!! smile.gif



QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Sep 10 2013, 06:30 PM) *
it says nothing about marriage in the amendment , I don't know why his comments talk about , the amendment was in regards to race , not sexual preferance
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv
, but as I stated in earlier posts , I don't have a problem with them getting married as long as they don't force it on my family



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