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> Guitar Pickups Vs Amp Transformer Noise, Anybody know "out of this world" tips?
Cosmin Lupu
post Sep 19 2013, 07:47 AM
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QUOTE (Mertay @ Sep 17 2013, 11:35 AM) *
Actually one can use 3 p90's to make them noiseless, 1 hidden inside guitar only to eliminate noise.

I sometimes read the seymour duncan blog. Not long ago someone posted there that modern noiseless singles are much better today, I didn't investigate but it was mentioned they are built different.

I only split my guitars neck humbucker when I need an acoustic guitar like sound (norton does this well with screw poles). Parallel might be not a bad idea but usually they don't bleed highs as much as singles though it might be worth to try something bright like "humbucker from hell" in parallel mode.


What a cool trick! I also found something on a forum regarding the P90s which could be interesting - check it out:

Solving hum issue on a '56 Goldtop with P-90's - 60 Hz hum is excessive. Anyway, after searching for all sorts of fixes on the web, it seems that converting one of the pups to a reverse wired, reverse polarity was the answer. However, every post talked about swapping wires (i.e. cutting and/or resoldering) on the pickups. I was not interested in that so I figured there had to be a better way. There is, and it's easy. I did it last night, but unfortunately, I didn't take pictures. I think you'll be able to follow it anyway. It took me about 15 minutes (minues the re-do because I had the magnets wrong; see Tip).

1. Take off the strings by any method you want (I just loostened them and removed the tailpiece from the bolts). Remove the cover screws on the bridge pickup (doesn't matter which, but the bridge seemed to have a bit more wire slack. If not, open up the vol/tone cover and carefully snip a cable tie to free up the cables)
2. Carefully lift the pickup out of the hole. It should be waxed together, so nothing should fall out. Take a Sharpie and mark the outside edge of the two magents above the bottom plate. Also mark the top of the bobbin. This is very important as magnet polarity is key.
3. Unsrew the pole pieces (six screws on top) and the two screws holding the bottom plate to the pole plate (thin metal strip that sits between the magnets). Carefully take out the magnets. Since everything is waxed together, gently pry apart with a small screwdriver.
4. Flip the bobbin over and arrange the plate and pole plate between the bobbin bottom (used to be the top) and the plate. Put the magnets back in between the bobbin and the bottom plate, making sure that the edge that you marked is now on the inside against the pole plate. If you have a compass handy, make sure that the pickups now have different magentic polarity (one should attract N, the other S as you hold the compass perpendicular to the pup face).
5. Re-attach all the screws and re-install the pup and cover. Congratulations, you now have humbucking P-90 axe when playing in the center position.

Tip: If the center position is hum-free, but sounds thin and nasaly, the magnets are not installed correctly.

Why does this work? Because the 60 Hz hum only interacts with the coils, so reversing one causes a phase inversion that cancels out the hum. The strings interact with the entire coil/magnet system, so reversing the magnets reverses the phase once again, resulting in a zero phase reversal, just like the original.




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Darius Wave
post Sep 19 2013, 08:49 AM
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I'msorry that I have to chill You a bit Cosmin..but...this already happens in 2 and 4 position of strat. Even if I could do this with P90...then...it aplies only when pickup play together...

Unfortunately I use those positions....almost never :/ Nice clean, percissuve tones...but doesn't work for me


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Cosmin Lupu
post Sep 19 2013, 09:34 AM
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QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Sep 19 2013, 07:49 AM) *
I'msorry that I have to chill You a bit Cosmin..but...this already happens in 2 and 4 position of strat. Even if I could do this with P90...then...it aplies only when pickup play together...

Unfortunately I use those positions....almost never :/ Nice clean, percissuve tones...but doesn't work for me


No problem man smile.gif I thought it would be interesting to share, that's all wink.gif You seem to know a lot about this stuff so, I appreciate your thoughts whenever, so I can learn more myself!


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Darius Wave
post Sep 19 2013, 10:05 AM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Sep 19 2013, 08:34 AM) *
No problem man smile.gif I thought it would be interesting to share, that's all wink.gif You seem to know a lot about this stuff so, I appreciate your thoughts whenever, so I can learn more myself!



It always nice to share any "backstage" tips so thanx Cosmin for this...some users might find it usefull smile.gif From All we have collected by far I think that the "backplate coil" solution would be probably best of those. Ken's got a good point about middle pickup issue...but..I could sacrifice it - rarely use it smile.gif


I feel like I'm "getting old" and more to strat/tele tones smile.gif Those have such a wide dynamics - I mean when You "rape" it..it screams with full amount of treble and then just touch it soft so the treble makes hidden but doesnt loose the clarity.

I was always adding coil split and using both - humb and single modes of neck pickup. After some noiseless solutions probably best I found by far was the Lace Sensor "double-single coil" humbucker type. My thoughts on those were that they add some extra treble and instead of many pickups they don't stay transparent (I don't judge if it's good or bad but indeed many pickups stay close to the main guitar tone just adding some harmonics while those seem to be a bit more independent)


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Mertay
post Sep 19 2013, 11:09 AM
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My final idea biggrin.gif try if you can find the previous steve lukather guitar. EMG single's is far from "popular" but it might be worth to try as I heard they are very silent compared to traditional pickups.


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Darius Wave
post Sep 19 2013, 12:26 PM
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QUOTE (Mertay @ Sep 19 2013, 10:09 AM) *
My final idea biggrin.gif try if you can find the previous steve lukather guitar. EMG single's is far from "popular" but it might be worth to try as I heard they are very silent compared to traditional pickups.


Ha ha smile.gif Have a set of SA in the closet also had an 89 with coil split and it does the job...but once again never ending - stage comfort vs tone issue smile.gif


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klasaine
post Sep 19 2013, 04:31 PM
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If you don't need a middle pkup position then the 'dummy coil' or Illitch system is an excellent option.
If you want dead quiet in any and all position (buckers and singles) - EMG is far and away the best for that.


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Todd Simpson
post Sep 19 2013, 07:24 PM
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Easy!! GET A NOISE GATE!! smile.gif Seriously, you have several options, here a couple.

1.)MXR Smartgate ( I use this one personally and it's great)

http://www.jimdunlop.com/product/m135-smart-gate-noise-gate

2.)ISP Decimator II - This one has FOUR inputs/outputs so you can run it through your effects loop and directly in and out to your amp. So it reduces noise inside and outside your amp.

http://www.isptechnologies.com/portfolio/d...g-string-pedal/

You can try all the shielding you want, but in the end you just need a gate/noise suppressor to really hand it well. Some folks have a really hard time setting the devices properly and end up CUTTING OFF THEIR SUSTAIN!! So it's worth taking time to get used to the controls to find the "sweet spot".

Single coils are just noisy buggers which is why I try to avoid them unless using a neck/middle pickup combo setting. Dimarzio made some "noiseless" single coils for Yngwie.

http://www.dimarzio.com/pickups/strat/hum-...ling-strat/hs-3

So pretty much, your looking at buying a gate/suppressor, and/or replacing your pickups! smile.gif

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Sep 15 2013, 09:46 AM) *
Hello guys. Sometimes we have to play in the small clubs, being close to the guitar amp. No matter how good Your guitar shielding and pickups are seems like We can't win with the electro-magnetic field, generated from the amplifier transformer. Aside from some obvious things have anyone of You heard of any ultra advanced tips of how to handle this?

We using humbuckers mode the level of it is...let's say...acceptable in the whole mix but...when switching to single coil it's unusable :/ I know single coils are what they are but when increasing the distance the noise level get's low enough to handle it.


Have You ever heard of any unusuall methids other than:

1. Active pickups
2. Noisless single coils
3. Increasing the distance

and similar?



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Darius Wave
post Sep 19 2013, 10:42 PM
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No way Todd...tongue.gif

Of course Your right partly - I use noise gates...mostly one in the amps fx loop, sometimes also one between guitar and preamp but..it work ok for my heavy rockin' collaborations


The real problem comes when I play with pop/blues/fusion bands. This is completely different story And my playing is also 180 degress reversed - more legato, more dynamics, less drive, less notes, less picking - more fingers, less humb - more single coil

When it comes to operate with wide range of dynamics - having mid range gain on the amp and doing most of the job with guitar volume knob...You know Mark Knopfler, Jeff Beck stuff...then The noise gate goes out of the game. The level of 60 Hz (50 Hz in Poland) is way to big so the noise gate treshold would kill to much sound.

Of course...I will just remind that we're talking about very specyfic situation - small pub, amp like 50 cm close to You (it sucks but sometimes it happens). I have no problems with my rig (I've spend years on research and fixing issues by little tiny steps, focusing long time on single one until it's solved).

Please don't get me wrong - it might sound arogant...I'm only writting this to avoid some regular advices that are already familiar to me - the basic ideas are probably all tested.

By far active pickups or noisless single are solution but here comes the "tone preference issue" also
OPne on the tip that could work and I will try it (thanx guys) is the hidden, reversed coil.


But of course thanx for interest in the problem and Your will to help Todd! smile.gif

This post has been edited by Darius Wave: Sep 19 2013, 10:45 PM


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klasaine
post Sep 20 2013, 12:52 AM
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Not all NR is created equally.
The ISP 'decimator' that Todd mentions and both Cosmin and I use does not kill the note until it gets super quiet - just at the very end of it's decay. So really the ISP is a gate - you set a noise threshold. It's not any type of EQing that tries to mask the offending frequencies.

Here's a super quick demo.
Attached File  IC_B_012.MP3 ( 2.94MB ) Number of downloads: 42

Tele, single coils, tube amp and medium hot OD - a Menatone 'Howie' with both channels engaged.
The 'hiss' you hear is the air from the amp/speaker being up about half way and the OD. Also, the mic from the hand held recorder about 40 cm (16") from the speaker. Closer than any ear should be to a speaker.
*I place the NR first in the chain right after my guitar. I just want to kill the single coil hum from the guitar.
Hope that helps a little.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Sep 20 2013, 01:22 AM


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Todd Simpson
post Sep 20 2013, 12:57 AM
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No Way Me! smile.gif

That's what I thought. From the sound of it the MXR is hopeless. However, the DECIMATOR is actually exactly what you need from the sound of it. It's not actually a gate. It doesn't crush your sustain/signal, just gets rid of noise. It's the only device I've seen that work in tough situations without crushing dynamics. I'm guessing you may not have tried them? I'm not sure if they are available everywhere but it would be worth a look.

As for tone, if you don't like the way the noiseless dimarzios sound, maybe the noise is just part of the tone then? If it hums a bit, just make it part of the set wink.gif

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Sep 19 2013, 05:42 PM) *
No way Todd...tongue.gif

Of course Your right partly - I use noise gates...mostly one in the amps fx loop, sometimes also one between guitar and preamp but..it work ok for my heavy rockin' collaborations


The real problem comes when I play with pop/blues/fusion bands. This is completely different story And my playing is also 180 degress reversed - more legato, more dynamics, less drive, less notes, less picking - more fingers, less humb - more single coil

When it comes to operate with wide range of dynamics - having mid range gain on the amp and doing most of the job with guitar volume knob...You know Mark Knopfler, Jeff Beck stuff...then The noise gate goes out of the game. The level of 60 Hz (50 Hz in Poland) is way to big so the noise gate treshold would kill to much sound.

Of course...I will just remind that we're talking about very specyfic situation - small pub, amp like 50 cm close to You (it sucks but sometimes it happens). I have no problems with my rig (I've spend years on research and fixing issues by little tiny steps, focusing long time on single one until it's solved).

Please don't get me wrong - it might sound arogant...I'm only writting this to avoid some regular advices that are already familiar to me - the basic ideas are probably all tested.

By far active pickups or noisless single are solution but here comes the "tone preference issue" also
OPne on the tip that could work and I will try it (thanx guys) is the hidden, reversed coil.


But of course thanx for interest in the problem and Your will to help Todd! smile.gif


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Sep 20 2013, 12:59 AM


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Cosmin Lupu
post Sep 20 2013, 07:52 AM
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I first tried the Decimator with a Mesa Roadking boosted with a Zakk Wylde MXR OD, using the lead channel of the amp. It makes the Mesa even weirder to control, as the tone feels like it jumps out of the amp somehow. I can't quite explain the feeling but that's how it is smile.gif

As Ken said, it is a very useful tool and I got used to the sound, with MY rig, but as I said, on that Mesa, it's really something else. Now, I would be curious to try the Decimator II, but I don't think that anyone here has it.


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Darius Wave
post Sep 20 2013, 08:34 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Sep 19 2013, 11:57 PM) *
No Way Me! smile.gif

That's what I thought. From the sound of it the MXR is hopeless. However, the DECIMATOR is actually exactly what you need from the sound of it. It's not actually a gate. It doesn't crush your sustain/signal, just gets rid of noise. It's the only device I've seen that work in tough situations without crushing dynamics. I'm guessing you may not have tried them? I'm not sure if they are available everywhere but it would be worth a look.

As for tone, if you don't like the way the noiseless dimarzios sound, maybe the noise is just part of the tone then? If it hums a bit, just make it part of the set wink.gif



Ha ha ha smile.gif I get Your point. Decimator is a great device but 60 humb is something much worse than what we usually understand by saying "noise" smile.gif. I did a pretty descent shielding and even on the distortion I can be pretty quiet if the distance from the amp is long enough smile.gif


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Todd Simpson
post Sep 24 2013, 11:30 PM
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The Decimator and Decimator II both work really well at killing EXACTLY the kind of HUM you are talking about smile.gif But if those are too rare/expensive, you could of course go the simple route and get a Hum Killer box smile.gif

Between the decimator/decimator II, and a Hum Cancelling Box, your going to get pretty much as much as your going to be able to remove without opening up your guitar and making a Faraday cage around the electronics smile.gif

Attached Image


QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Sep 20 2013, 03:34 AM) *
Ha ha ha smile.gif I get Your point. Decimator is a great device but 60 humb is something much worse than what we usually understand by saying "noise" smile.gif. I did a pretty descent shielding and even on the distortion I can be pretty quiet if the distance from the amp is long enough smile.gif



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Darius Wave
post Sep 25 2013, 12:10 AM
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Good tip. Gotta try this smile.gif Faraday'a Cage is already done smile.gif


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Todd Simpson
post Sep 25 2013, 02:02 AM
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Let us know! smile.gif Hopefully it's quite as a mouse after this smile.gif

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Sep 24 2013, 07:10 PM) *
Good tip. Gotta try this smile.gif Faraday'a Cage is already done smile.gif



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Cosmin Lupu
post Sep 25 2013, 07:40 AM
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But I notice there are no switches - it's somehow turned on all the time?


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Todd Simpson
post Sep 25 2013, 10:21 PM
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Yup smile.gif Always on and doing it's job. Here is a link to their web site with more info.


http://www.ebtechaudio.com/hedes.html

QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Sep 25 2013, 02:40 AM) *
But I notice there are no switches - it's somehow turned on all the time?



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Darius Wave
post Sep 25 2013, 11:44 PM
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http://www.ebtechaudio.com/humxdes.html


This looks interesting though....

Maybe a good mobile device when the reason of hum is a power connections on the stage. Unfortunately...Didn't see european plug version


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Cosmin Lupu
post Sep 26 2013, 08:31 AM
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Thanks Todd!

I think that this plug adapter could do the trick?



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