Minor Pentatonic And Blues Scales Options

[Eat-Sleep-andJam]

Ok so Scale= Guideline to play within through improv. ?



- John

[Andrew Cockburn]

Ok so Scale= Guideline to play within through improv. ?
- John

Yes, you can look at it that way though that is not all it is used for. Think of a scale as the artists palette of colours for a painting. What you make of it is up to you, but you choose the colors in the palette (or the scale) ahead of time.

[Eat-Sleep-andJam]

ok thank you, I just love theory so much right now. Should I but practicing all these minor scales and what not or some of the lessons here at Gmc ?



- John

[Andrew Cockburn]

ok thank you, I just love theory so much right now. Should I but practicing all these minor scales and what not or some of the lessons here at Gmc ?
- John

Both!

[Eat-Sleep-andJam]

^ My Brain


What lessons would you recomend here Andrew that would correspond well with what im doing theory wise ?



- John

[Andrew Cockburn]

^ My Brain
What lessons would you recomend here Andrew that would correspond well with what im doing theory wise ?
- John

To go with the pentatonic and blues scales, I can suggest no finer lessons than Gabriels Blues series

[rokchik]

Hey Andrew,

This may have been explained already but I can't seem to wrap my head around this concept at all. Root notes and the scale boxes...I know it's been explained to death...sorry . I kind of did things bass ackwards and had learned the Am pentatonic scale and boxes without really knowing the theory behind it or the actual notes I was playing....I know bad me, slap! Anyways now that I've recognized the error of my ways and have been trying to backtrack I sorta have myself all confused Not sure if i'm really understanding the concept behind how the boxes are derived....or if what I think is going on is actually right. I'll try my best to explain.

Ok I know the formula is 32232 and regarless of what my root note is this will always be the formula for the minor Pentatonic scale but I'll use the G minor scale as my example.

G,Bb, C, D, F, G are the notes in this scale. So when going through the scale boxes, even though I don't always start or finish on G (root note) when moving through them, as long as I am using those notes, following the formula, I'm still in the G minor scale is that correct? (or whatever I choose as the root note for the scale I want to play)

And with regards to the boxes and working out the patterns,(again using G minor Pentatonic) is it fair for me to say that when you move to say the second scale box starting at Bb will the formula then become 22323? By this I mean the next note is still going to be C and then D so on and so forth so your still following the same formula just your starting point moved up one and that this will be true as you move throught the boxes and start on a different note from that scale? not sure if I explained that well or not.....hopefully you'll get what I'm trying to say

thanks

rok

[steve25]

Hey Andrew,

This may have been explained already but I can't seem to wrap my head around this concept at all. Root notes and the scale boxes...I know it's been explained to death...sorry . I kind of did things bass ackwards and had learned the Am pentatonic scale and boxes without really knowing the theory behind it or the actual notes I was playing....I know bad me, slap! Anyways now that I've recognized the error of my ways and have been trying to backtrack I sorta have myself all confused Not sure if i'm really understanding the concept behind how the boxes are derived....or if what I think is going on is actually right. I'll try my best to explain.

Ok I know the formula is 32232 and regarless of what my root note is this will always be the formula for the minor Pentatonic scale but I'll use the G minor scale as my example.

G,Bb, C, D, F, G are the notes in this scale. So when going through the scale boxes, even though I don't always start or finish on G (root note) when moving through them, as long as I am using those notes, following the formula, I'm still in the G minor scale is that correct? (or whatever I choose as the root note for the scale I want to play)

And with regards to the boxes and working out the patterns,(again using G minor Pentatonic) is it fair for me to say that when you move to say the second scale box starting at Bb will the formula then become 22323? By this I mean the next note is still going to be C and then D so on and so forth so your still following the same formula just your starting point moved up one and that this will be true as you move throught the boxes and start on a different note from that scale? not sure if I explained that well or not.....hopefully you'll get what I'm trying to say

thanks

rok

The root note defines which key you're in. So where you've given an example of G minor pentatonic you're root note when starting the scale should be a G note. So for example if you were starting the scale on the E string you would start on the 3rd fret, because that's a G note. When you change keys it's a good idea to make sure that whatever you changing to that you hit that root note at first. There are 5 different boxes and all of them will have root notes. Find out where they are and concentrate on learning them so that you can start and land on the root notes. Andrew correct me if i am wrong here

[rokchik]

The root note defines which key you're in. So where you've given an example of G minor pentatonic you're root note when starting the scale should be a G note. So for example if you were starting the scale on the E string you would start on the 3rd fret, because that's a G note. When you change keys it's a good idea to make sure that whatever you changing to that you hit that root note at first. There are 5 different boxes and all of them will have root notes. Find out where they are and concentrate on learning them so that you can start and land on the root notes. Andrew correct me if i am wrong here

Thanks for the reply steve25.

I think I understand the root note business in that if your doing the G minor pentatonic scale for example you start with G then work through the formula 32232 to get the rest of the scale.

My big problem is understanding the boxes/patterns and how they are derived. I know the shapes but I'm trying to understand them. Like the second box shape for the G minor pentatonic scale startes on Bb...unless I have that mistaken too So your still going to follow the scale of G minor in that your next note will be C then D and so on. So what I guess I'm trying to get at....and I know my explaining isn't very good... is that do you adjust the formula within the scale your playing ie: G minor pentatonic, to the note the next box shape starts with? Again I hope that makes sense.....this is why I have myself so confused

Or are you saying just learn where G is in the next box and work from there?....this seems easier. I think I'm turning a simple issue into a not so simple one

By the way Andrew sorry I probably should have just posted this as a question on the board instead of the lesson.

This post has been edited by rokchik: Sep 6 2007, 01:13 AM

[steve25]

Thanks for the reply steve25.

I think I understand the root note business in that if your doing the G minor pentatonic scale for example you start with G then work through the formula 32232 to get the rest of the scale.

My big problem is understanding the boxes/patterns and how they are derived. I know the shapes but I'm trying to understand them. Like the second box shape for the G minor pentatonic scale startes on Bb...unless I have that mistaken too So your still going to follow the scale of G minor in that your next note will be C then D and so on. So what I guess I'm trying to get at....and I know my explaining isn't very good... is that do you adjust the formula within the scale your playing ie: G minor pentatonic, to the note the next box shape starts with? Again I hope that makes sense.....this is why I have myself so confused

Or are you saying just learn where G is in the next box and work from there?....this seems easier. I think I'm turning a simple issue into a not so simple one

They all start on G in the G minor pentaonic scale. So for example lets take 1 box:

E--------------------------------3--6--3--------------------------------
B--------------------------3--6----------6--3---------------------------
G--------------------3--5----------------------5--3---------------------
D--------------3--5----------------------------------5--3---------------
A--------3--5-----------------------------------------------5--3--------
E--3--6------------------------------------------------------------6--3-

Here we start on the E string 3rd fret, that's the G note. Another root note would be on the 5th fret D string, you could also start there as that would still be in the key of G. However another box we have:

E----------------------6--8--6----------------------------------
B---------------6--8------------8--6---------------------------
G--------5--7-------------------------7--5---------------------
D--5--8-------------------------------------8--5---------------
A---------------------------------------------------8--5--------
E----------------------------------------------------------8--6-


Here we start on the 5th fret D for the next box. This is because that is where the root is. There's also a root note on the 8th fret B string. Hope this helps

[Andrew Cockburn]

Steve explained it well ...

What you are talking about with the formulae is essentially correct but may run you into difficulties later both when looking at modes, and also when looking at major scale boxes.

The best way of looking at it is that the formula is always the same. But, different boxes start at different places in the formula. The root note of a box will always be the first note of the formula, no matter where you play it. This is essentially what you were saying but with a slightly different emphasis.

In general, boxes are derived by picking a string (bottom E is good) and moving up one note in the scale for each box. This works fine for pentatonic, and you get 5 boxes. When you look at major and minor however, it gets a little wierd. You probably kow there are 5 boxes for major and minor - but this is a simplification, therer are really 7. Since we step through the scale when making boxes, though, a couple of boxes will be only 1 fret apart which is kind of overkill, so those 2 bopxes are dropped leaving 5 boxes that differe by 2 or 3 frets. Now, given that boxes are left out you can see why your approach might have been confusing when you went into major and minor. In that case, as always, you would figure out where in the box the root note was and always use your formula from that point.

The way you discussed using the formula by the way looks very similar to how modes are derived. I know you didn;t mean it that way, which is why I think this might confuse things later on, so very firmly, always think of the formula as starting on the roiot note, then figure out which position within the formula your pattern starts. If you do this with pentatonic you will get the same result, but for the right reason this time .

This post has been edited by Andrew Cockburn: Sep 6 2007, 01:43 AM

[rokchik]

Thanks Steve and Andrew very much!

I had myself all messed up with this and couldn't find my way back I was giving myself a headache. I completely understand now....I sorta had it but just in a very round about way. Thanks again for all your help you guys.

[bart m]

does it matter what fingerings one uses for the minor pentatonic boxes...for instance, box 3 of the minor pent scale...what fingering should i use...

[JVM]

In general I'd say obviously start with the index, then if it's one fret away either slide the index or use the middle, if it's two use the ring, and if it's 3 use the pinky. 3nps scales are cool.

[bart m]

In general I'd say obviously start with the index, then if it's one fret away either slide the index or use the middle, if it's two use the ring, and if it's 3 use the pinky. 3nps scales are cool.

well, for box 3 of the minor pentatonic, i've been starting with the middle finger(finger #2)...that way, I don't have to slide one way or the other to reach a note...but I'm just not sure if this is the best way to do for an overall approach, the main problem being is that i'm not getting my hand use to stretching beyond 4 strings....I have small hands so i've always played this box this way, i'm just not sure if it's the best way though.
bart

[JVM]

I'm not the expert but I've always done boxes starting with the index - it might feel awkward sometimes but you get used to it.

[Andrew Cockburn]

I'm not the expert but I've always done boxes starting with the index - it might feel awkward sometimes but you get used to it.

Whateer works - I have tried both ways in the past and settled on sliding, and in fact sliding is more important for 3 notes per string scale which you might want to use later on, however, if it works and you are comfortble with it, stick with it!

[Spyle]

So when practicing scales I should always start on a root note? I've always just started on the E string regardless of which box I'm in.

I assume it doesn't matter which note I switch boxes on? In one of Kristofer's pentatonic lessons he talks about being able to change boxes on every string.

[Muris Varajic]

Best way is to practice boxes while switching them on different spots or strings.
Starting from E string is fine but try from another strings as well,
just to avoid common sounding of each box.

[Andrew Cockburn]

Regarding root notes, there is an explanation of this in my introduction to scales lesson here.