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> Caelumamittendum - Improvising Workshop
Caelumamittendum
post Jan 9 2014, 05:50 PM
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See, I don't really like the amp+cab by itself, and I like the little pinch of distortion that the skreamer adds. Here's an example:

Amp+cab only:

Attached File  Amp_cab.mp3 ( 1.07MB ) Number of downloads: 42


Amp+cab+screamer:

Attached File  Amp_cab_skreamer.mp3 ( 1.07MB ) Number of downloads: 40


+delay:

Attached File  Amp_cab_skreamer_delay.mp3 ( 1.07MB ) Number of downloads: 43


Maybe I could do without the other stuff in my setup, chorus thing doesn't seem to add anything at the moment that I need. It seemed that I got more room for articulation when getting rid of some stuff. I don't know which it was that made articulation less varied.

But anyway, above is some examples cut more to the bone.


Oh, and one more thing: I don't know anything about EQ at all, so the EQ I had added was just guess work all the way through.

And furthermore (I keep forgetting things!) I usually play with my headphones (Sennheiser 380 Pro) on, and the sound is hugely different from with my headphones on and then with my speakers, which aren't the highest quality. So usually what sounds good on my speakers sound crap on my headphones and vice versa.

This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Jan 9 2014, 05:53 PM


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Darius Wave
post Jan 9 2014, 07:14 PM
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Any type of compression (limiter, maximizer, compressor etc) changes the articulation. Distortion devices also compress the tone. This is why booster makes amps easy play same with compressors but....there is the second side...the bad side. People get used to "easy to play" tone but once going to play live at high volume all those compressors and boosters will make Your amp give a lot of noise and easily getting into feedback.

Very first kick in the a$$ most of players get in their life is the very first challenge with real amp distortion with no fx. Now most of them say "that amp doesn't sound good". Unfortunately usually the problem is not the amp but the playing itself.

We are living in the very hard times where people are getting so used to simulations and digital distortions that they can't handle real amp in lve playing situations. Before we go further You have to make some choices of who do You wan to be in the future.

Some of players are able to shred on the high gain or with booster/compressor while they can't handle natural distortion of amps...this is because if You pick softly, natural distortion will translate things just the way they are...even if the gain is a bit higher. This is the essence of word "dynamics". But everytime You plug a distortion or compressor in front of the amps distortion You will loose a lot of dynamics.

Now the real challenge is to be able to play on the drive that gives You ability to play soft as well as agressive with good translation. It will demand much more hard work from You but it gives a lot of profits. One of those is You can sound like "You" no matter what are You plugged to.


From those raw files I can tell You have a good punch in Your right hands and it it's a big shame to loose all those dynamics I can hear now but...more advanced licks will demand much more on the lower gain and this is the true challenge and playing development. Hard licks will be much harder to play and every single mistake will be unmasked. That's the cost of the truth

I'm not saying the amp + cab tone is ok but for me it already says a lot about Your playing - I a good way smile.gif ALWAYS before any EQ, compressions etc it's best to find the amp. Try to show me different amp type from guitar rig...not the twang. Try to find amp with higher gain. You will notice better dynamics response anyway...but...we'll go back to the articulation thing as well.

I think You starting point is bad - too much treble cut. Buy taking away too much treble You are also taking some good and needed frequencies in the high midrange. Using Low Pass Filter gives absolutely different effect - it cuts the treble at some point but it's sor of linear cut so...some of those will not be removed completely...just a 50% less.

Even if You feel there is a bit too much treble when You listen to guitar as a solo track ,remember...in the mix this treble can hide under overhads, snare etc and it will leave only some tasty breath.

If You have a cubase SX3 try to plug "Q filter" on the insterts (end of the signal chain - after the cab simulation), press "cut" button on the right - below "high" word. You will see a point. Grab it and place on th 6.00 Hz (6 kHz). IT's a good strating point for distorted guitars. You can move this point right and left until You feel good balance. It's best to start from 12 o'clock on Your amp EQ knobs.

I know what kind of the tone You like....but as I said - it loses a lot of dynamics and details. Let's try to mess with different amp in the guitar rig


Also...reference recordings are mastered. You have to keep distance. some of those guitars from professional recordings really had some unpleasant frequencies while listening to a guitar solo....but those were gone in the mix or compressed on mastering...this is why we often feel that those professional recordings are soo smooth. I have similar headphones - yes they are god to verify unpleasant frequencies...but...here's the surprise... You don't have to cut that much treble to get rid of them. They are in the high mid range. This is why You have to cut so much to get pleasant tone...but...as mentioned...You loose the details as well.


Also...Never refer to how You hear reall amp in position other than being in front of the speaker at ears height.

Guitar players are used to listen to the amps that are not playing exactly towards their ears...like small combo on the floor or a huge cabinet but...too close behind Your back.

This way people create a distorted image of how the real amp sounds. And this causes Your need to warm-up the tone even way to much. Now amp simulation work like the amp in a studio so the ear (microphone) is right in front and next to the speaker. And this is the tone You work with eq to fit the mix! smile.gif

Try different amp, set the EQ to 12 o 'clock (default eq) Send me the audio and the screen of new set-up.

We need to get good raw tone...good is equal to good for further processing, good for the mix...not necessary perfect for itself

then we could go to Low Pass Filtering...You will feel release then smile.gif

Wchich cubase do You own? SX or never?

Also You have to consider that


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Caelumamittendum
post Jan 11 2014, 07:21 PM
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Long posts scare me! laugh.gif

The thing with Guitar Rig is that there isn't really any amp+cab that I like the sound of on their own. They all sound terrible without some compressor and other stuff. It took me quite a while to get the tone I have now, which I quite like, but you've been mentioning some things on the collabs, which I thought I might try to correct.

I have Cubase 5, and I couldn't seem to find anything saying Q filter. Maybe it's called something else now.

I'd like to have a tone that allows for good dynamic playing, soft playing sounded less distorted and harder punches sounded more distorted if that makes sense. My current tone is a bit flat in that regard, but getting rid of some of the effects allowed for a bit more room for dynamics.

Also, adding the compressor to my tone seems to allow for greater sustain on notes, which I quite like.



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Darius Wave
post Jan 11 2014, 10:05 PM
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I get You. What You mean is exactly the meaning of word "dynamics". As for Cubase newer versions had no Q but they had high pass and low pass option in the track EQ. I know I'm a bit stubborn but if You will try to understand my purpose, You will have less problems working with real amps live.

First thing is to deal with the natural tone of the amp and that it's not perfect.

Second thing is to understand what sound good in the mix and what to leave for the post processing stage (Low Pass Filter and compression for example)

Sorry for being 100% true but I will write this because I really believe in Your talent. You current tone takes a way at least 50% of emotions You give in Your playing. This tone is not good. It's too much dried out of the breath. New things (getting rid of old habbits) is always painfull but it will profit in the future.

If You are not able to switch to anything else then the fender amps simulation I saw on Your guitar rig screens then we need to find different way.

I have a proposition but first I have to know if You are able to use Poulin plug-ins? I mean...do You know how to launch LePou amps sims and impulse loaders?

You could send me Your guitar recorded directly line-in so I could try to propose You some tone preset and see how do You feel about it?

I can also help You to launch Poulin and cab sim


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Caelumamittendum
post Jan 12 2014, 01:04 PM
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I'm glad you believe in my talent, and I appreciate you taking the time to write these posts!

I guess I could try lePou plugins. I have never tried them before and don't know how they work, but I'm willing to give it a go. I don't have any money at the moment though!


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Caelumamittendum
post Jan 12 2014, 01:43 PM
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I have tried downloading LePou plugins now, as I saw they were free, but I can't get the amps to show up in Cubase. Only the cab. I have placed them within the VST folder, but they don't show anywhere inside Cubase.

They should show up on Inserts, like the cab does, but nope, nothing.

This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Jan 12 2014, 02:05 PM


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Darius Wave
post Jan 12 2014, 02:22 PM
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Recheck the Vst folders in Cubase. There might be a few reasons. I recommend the 32 bit versions. 64 bit are a bit too much PC memory and CPU consuming for direct monitor options. Also....Cubase usues a few different path's like VSTPlugins in Program Files and also C:\Program Files\Steinberg\VSTPlugins

First of all You have to make sure:
1. Is Your operating system 32 or 64 bit
2. Is Your DAW 32 or 64 bit
3. Is Your downloaded LePou's 32 or 64 bit...and are those for mac or for windows
4. Did You extract the rar/ zip files before copying

When I have similar problems I usually copy one .dll file (lextac for example) and add 01 , 02 ,03 to each copy name. Then I copy each file to every possible path cubase could use. Then I open Cubase and go to "Plug-in information" and click both options "update" + update plug-in list" (or similar). There are also vst plug-ins paths listed.

When add the fx to the track insert You will see lextac01 or lextac 02 or lextac 03. This way You will verify the path from where the plug-in was taken.

Make sure to copy to Prgram files (x86) if You have 32 bit plug-ins


Try those tips and let me know


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Caelumamittendum
post Jan 12 2014, 02:40 PM
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QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Jan 12 2014, 02:22 PM) *
Recheck the Vst folders in Cubase. There might be a few reasons. I recommend the 32 bit versions. 64 bit are a bit too much PC memory and CPU consuming for direct monitor options. Also....Cubase usues a few different path's like VSTPlugins in Program Files and also C:\Program Files\Steinberg\VSTPlugins

First of all You have to make sure:
1. Is Your operating system 32 or 64 bit
2. Is Your DAW 32 or 64 bit
3. Is Your downloaded LePou's 32 or 64 bit...and are those for mac or for windows
4. Did You extract the rar/ zip files before copying

When I have similar problems I usually copy one .dll file (lextac for example) and add 01 , 02 ,03 to each copy name. Then I copy each file to every possible path cubase could use. Then I open Cubase and go to "Plug-in information" and click both options "update" + update plug-in list" (or similar). There are also vst plug-ins paths listed.

When add the fx to the track insert You will see lextac01 or lextac 02 or lextac 03. This way You will verify the path from where the plug-in was taken.

Make sure to copy to Prgram files (x86) if You have 32 bit plug-ins


Try those tips and let me know


Updating worked! I never had to do that before to get plugins working. Thanks!

I'll play around with it a bit, see what I can come up with and then I'll send you a raw file also.

Okay, so I need some impulse response wave file as well, right, for the cab? Where do I find those?


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Darius Wave
post Jan 12 2014, 03:07 PM
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I use a lot of different impulses but for the warm tone usually catharsis 1on_pres5 work best. It's one of the most popular and liked impulse. Here You go. Please send me some raw file as soon as possible so I can prepare some proposition before You plug to many things at the same time while doing tests biggrin.gif


Anyway...when You load and impulse first make sure everything in the impulse loader is set to default ...I man mix = 100% and no low or high cut. You can search for kefir as well. It's more simple and takes less cpu.


Here's the impulse:Attached File  1on_pres5.wav ( 1.39K ) Number of downloads: 43


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Caelumamittendum
post Jan 12 2014, 03:08 PM
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Also, here's a raw file for you to suggest a preset with.

Attached File  Raw_for_Dar.mp3 ( 1.75MB ) Number of downloads: 44


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Darius Wave
post Jan 12 2014, 04:00 PM
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I tried and to be honest I think You could be satisfied with the tone even without too much tweaking.

I used HyBrit, Kefir, Cathrasis 1on_pres5 and...Ts808 booster for the moments of some faster runs. You can keep that on or off comparing to what kind of playing You want at the moment

Here are some pics and Kefir...and ts808 dll.

You can use as much of ts808 gain,, vol and treble amount to get comfortable articulation response.


Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached File  TSE808v2.0.zip ( 2.26MB ) Number of downloads: 37


Attached Image

here is also my proposition of cubase EQ

You can mess with the point number 4 (left right) until You'll be satisfied with treble cut. Make sure You switch poin t 4 eq to "low pass" mode ...adn point 1 eq to "high pass" mode

For my personall taste I would not use point 4 EQ (low pass with this particular impulse) It's already very warm. Some of the treble might sound fizzy when You listen to guitar only. But it will disappear in the mix with other instruments and add great breath to Your dynamics. The tone I suggested i based on Your previous tone. Personally I like brighter tones because they give more contrast between soft and hard strokes

take a listen on Daniele Gottardo tone (I love this song BTW):



Of course it's the neck pickup (You can hear how sharp the tone becomes once he get to bridge position. But this is the cost of having wider dynamics response
Attached image(s)
Attached Image
 


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Caelumamittendum
post Jan 12 2014, 08:17 PM
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This is what I'm getting at the moment, trying somewhat to get the settings you've described:

Attached File  Hybrit_kefir_cab.mp3 ( 625.99K ) Number of downloads: 44


Oh, and then here is a bit altered with Guitar rig:

Attached File  Guitar_Rig.mp3 ( 625.99K ) Number of downloads: 55


Also, what do you suggest for delay?

This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Jan 12 2014, 08:42 PM


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Darius Wave
post Jan 12 2014, 08:38 PM
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somehow i can't download...something wrong with the files


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Caelumamittendum
post Jan 12 2014, 08:45 PM
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They should work now.


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Darius Wave
post Jan 12 2014, 08:47 PM
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Cubase has a very good double delay / stereo delay plug in


1. Track / Add track / FX channel
2. Go to this FX channel and add doubledelay (stereo delay) to first insert slot
3. Set mix to 100%, Left delay time - 360 ms, right = 500 ms. Feedback is a matter of song...You will set this one as You like...but...remember to TURN OFF the sync with project tempo. We want that delay to make space...not a precise echo repeater
4. Go back to the guitar track. Click on first "send" slot and find the fx track just added. By increasing the send level You will add more delay to the guitar.


Guitar trrack should be mono (guitar is a mono instrument) amp, cab and stomp box fx work best while being in the instert section of guitar track. Now FX like chorus stereo delay and reverb usually works best if they are FX channel - stereo channel.

Maybe this is not exactly delay focused but It could guide You a bit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yjnVqjufs0

As for the tone try to record a sample with backing track. I like that tone much better. We only need to add reverb / delay to make it alive


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Caelumamittendum
post Jan 12 2014, 09:00 PM
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My computer just died. Hoping I can fix it. It doesn't want to start properly now. Will record something maybe later or tomorrow.


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Darius Wave
post Jan 12 2014, 09:38 PM
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Ok. Just let me know. I hope it's nothing serious :/


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Caelumamittendum
post Jan 15 2014, 03:26 PM
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I can't get the delay to work now. Everything else is fine, but as soon as I try and add the delay, if I set mix to 100% I hear what I play 2 seconds after I've played it. Like there's latency, which there shouldn't be. And in general the delay I'm getting sounds like somewhat pulling a cat's tail.

This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Jan 15 2014, 03:39 PM


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Darius Wave
post Jan 15 2014, 11:22 PM
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post a screen of Your FX channel settings and Your guitar track settings.

Delay should be turned on with the special "fx track". You should only use send slots and send only a small amount of signal to the delay track. It sounds like You hear only the delay. This could happen if:

1. You make too much volume on send slot for delay fx track

2. You use delay in guitar track insert section


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