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Socky42
post Oct 12 2013, 09:50 PM
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Didn't try the original, couldn't really see the appeal. But this seems to have more of an emphasis on actually playing guitar rather then just learning to play songs.

Apparently on PC versions you can use regular audio interfaces too.


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Bogdan Radovic
post Oct 13 2013, 12:05 AM
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This looks pretty awesome!
I really like the trend of games moving towards playing real guitar instead of plastic one like in Guitar Hero.
Guitar Hero must have inspired tons of kids to start playing the real thing and it is an awesome gamer really.

This just brings everything up a notch.


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sammetal92
post Oct 13 2013, 08:55 AM
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QUOTE (Bogdan Radovic @ Oct 12 2013, 11:05 PM) *
This looks pretty awesome!
I really like the trend of games moving towards playing real guitar instead of plastic one like in Guitar Hero.
Guitar Hero must have inspired tons of kids to start playing the real thing and it is an awesome gamer really.

This just brings everything up a notch.


Yep, guitar hero was one of the big reasons I picked up the guitar when I was 15 tongue.gif biggrin.gif


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Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 13 2013, 01:29 PM
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As much as Guitar Hero made me think that all the kids would leave aside real guitars as it's easier to play on the video game related ones, this Rocksmith thing seems like a very complex and educational thing. I would love to get my hands on it and experience the whole thing. As You guys might know, we have a GMCer here - Kimiko is his nickname who has actively participated at creating Rocksmith if my assumptions are correct. Let's see what he has to share with us! biggrin.gif


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 13 2013, 07:40 PM
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I think that this is a great step to the future of guitar learning. I've never enjoyed Guitar Hero too much, I don't feel like playing guitar and it doesn't make sense to use it instead of playing guitar. However it's cool to see that it inspired this new game called Rocksmith which uses real guitars and started incorporating exercises and other features to learn to play guitar. Future is very promising. smile.gif


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Socky42
post Oct 13 2013, 07:50 PM
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Okay...i'm sold. laugh.gif


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Todd Simpson
post Oct 21 2013, 05:04 AM
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I think ROCKSMITH is a killer idea and a great way for folks to get started playing guitar and what a great thing to wrap it in a game smile.gif That way it doesn't have to feel tedious for folks starting out. Some folks are not a fan, thinking that folks should just learn the standard way, but as an instructor I think anything that encourages practice is a good thing smile.gif

I'm thrilled to see the game advance to this level. It really could be a great introduction to guitar for newbies and even for those well experiences players it could still be beneficial and great fun as well smile.gif

As for GUITAR HERO and such, lots of folks seem to bag on it, but again, I think anything that encourages people to be interested in music is a very positive thing. I've had several students that started playing guitar just because of GUITAR HERO. Guitar Hero is a "gateway drug" so to speak for heading to real guitar smile.gif I'm all for it.

Todd




QUOTE (Socky42 @ Oct 12 2013, 04:50 PM) *




Didn't try the original, couldn't really see the appeal. But this seems to have more of an emphasis on actually playing guitar rather then just learning to play songs.

Apparently on PC versions you can use regular audio interfaces too.



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verciazghra
post Oct 21 2013, 09:16 AM
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From a psychological standpoint I don't like it at all. Tieing more 'goal orientation' into creative purpose activities seems like a good way to make em die out all together, but people already do that they think that it's important for us to have goals and strict regiments of what we should be doing and why we're doing it. It's not, tho have fun with it in 10 years we'll see the results. Bleak future, lessons of history.

I agree with guitar hero being a good thing tho, just because it's not "the real thing" tied to shallow point scoring.

This post has been edited by verciazghra: Oct 21 2013, 09:18 AM


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Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 21 2013, 11:45 AM
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QUOTE (verciazghra @ Oct 21 2013, 08:16 AM) *
From a psychological standpoint I don't like it at all. Tieing more 'goal orientation' into creative purpose activities seems like a good way to make em die out all together, but people already do that they think that it's important for us to have goals and strict regiments of what we should be doing and why we're doing it. It's not, tho have fun with it in 10 years we'll see the results. Bleak future, lessons of history.

I agree with guitar hero being a good thing tho, just because it's not "the real thing" tied to shallow point scoring.


I always thought about this idea and it seems that the creators of South Park have already attacked it in that episode in which Stan's dad is trying to teach the kids the value of playing a real instrument, but they say it's uncool and they tell him that GuitarHero is the thing!

Funny as hell, but come to think of it, that silly grotesque more often than not TV series has got a point smile.gif What if... WHAT IF the kids will enjoy the ease of playing a game, rather then the REAL DEAL which is a dangerous, hurtful sometimes road of pleasure, pain, loads of work, success, failure in many situations, misery, friendship or enmity in some cases? It kind of sounds like life, innit?


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verciazghra
post Oct 21 2013, 02:14 PM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Oct 21 2013, 10:45 AM) *
I always thought about this idea and it seems that the creators of South Park have already attacked it in that episode in which Stan's dad is trying to teach the kids the value of playing a real instrument, but they say it's uncool and they tell him that GuitarHero is the thing!

Funny as hell, but come to think of it, that silly grotesque more often than not TV series has got a point smile.gif What if... WHAT IF the kids will enjoy the ease of playing a game, rather then the REAL DEAL which is a dangerous, hurtful sometimes road of pleasure, pain, loads of work, success, failure in many situations, misery, friendship or enmity in some cases? It kind of sounds like life, innit?

Yea exactly. That's sort of the "real trauma" that will happen. The even as alarming thing is that they have someone holding their hand to the degree of developing a "learning disabillity" where they can only learn from softwares which gives them points and ranks them. And I don't mean that they'll be unable to learn but wouldn't it be really likely that they themselves couldn't tell how good it was because they got so into scoring better points???

I think playing music for the purpose of expressing yourself is a long and pleasurable experience in itself. But doing so to get points and unlock stages and twinkley lights in your eyes just seems like an "ADHD"-powered approach to learning.


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Todd Simpson
post Oct 21 2013, 07:30 PM
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Egad! I can appreciate the honesty and purity of your approach verc man smile.gif But you gotta realize that it does take all sorts, as they say. I"m all for folks learning for the love of learning and playing for the love of playing smile.gif But I don't begrudge folks who want some structure either. As Cosmin is often saying, it really is about balance. I honestly believe it's possible to retain a purity of thought and purpose and creativity and allow for games, ranks, goals, etc. smile.gif But then again, maybe it's just me?

I've seen very positive results from incorporating a ranking system in to teaching guitar which I actually borrowed from my experience not only playing videos games but also from being a teacher @ University. Some students just didn't need the structure and felt constrained by it, but many really benefited from incorporating a goals based approach. I've benefitted from it myself smile.gif

Todd


QUOTE (verciazghra @ Oct 21 2013, 09:14 AM) *
Yea exactly. That's sort of the "real trauma" that will happen. The even as alarming thing is that they have someone holding their hand to the degree of developing a "learning disabillity" where they can only learn from softwares which gives them points and ranks them. And I don't mean that they'll be unable to learn but wouldn't it be really likely that they themselves couldn't tell how good it was because they got so into scoring better points???

I think playing music for the purpose of expressing yourself is a long and pleasurable experience in itself. But doing so to get points and unlock stages and twinkley lights in your eyes just seems like an "ADHD"-powered approach to learning.


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Oct 21 2013, 07:34 PM


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verciazghra
post Oct 21 2013, 08:02 PM
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Sure, but we've seen quite the upswing since computers and standardized testing became common grounds of ADD-type disorders and other randomized thought mutations giving people a harder and harder time to direct their conciousness. But I read too much about psychology to say what I think about these matters. I'm extremely sceptical of the "patch up" approach which enshrouds the entirety of our contemporary sociological philosophy. You hurt, you take a pill; you have a hard time sitting still, you take a pill.

While there is some merit to a supplemental learning tool which makes studying technique and theory(for example) in more fun ways, I'm all for that. But even since the introduction of tabs guitarists have become more or less notation-illiterates and can't read a page of music for the life of them. From the historical aspect, humans tend to take the easy approach more often then not, making comfort the standard. That is what worries me, practicing dynamics by statically measuring dB can never give you a sensation of relative crecendo something which many jazz musicians practice for ages. I've even heard of them geting assignments to play one note for weeks in different volume dynamics(talking about jazz pianists here).

I'm all for structure and trying out new ways as long as those new ways don't become a crutch which makes your legs deteriorate, if you know what I mean. smile.gif

QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Oct 21 2013, 06:30 PM) *
Egad! I can appreciate the honesty and purity of your approach verc man smile.gif But you gotta realize that it does take all sorts, as they say. I"m all for folks learning for the love of learning and playing for the love of playing smile.gif But I don't begrudge folks who want some structure either. As Cosmin is often saying, it really is about balance. I honestly believe it's possible to retain a purity of thought and purpose and creativity and allow for games, ranks, goals, etc. smile.gif But then again, maybe it's just me?

I've seen very positive results from incorporating a ranking system in to teaching guitar which I actually borrowed from my experience not only playing videos games but also from being a teacher @ University. Some students just didn't need the structure and felt constrained by it, but many really benefited from incorporating a goals based approach. I've benefitted from it myself smile.gif

Todd



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Todd Simpson
post Oct 21 2013, 10:58 PM
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Egad! I"m not suggesting pill taking, or at least I hope not smile.gif And I specifically forbid crutches during Video Chat! Cushions, perhaps, but no crutches!

Todd


QUOTE (verciazghra @ Oct 21 2013, 03:02 PM) *
Sure, but we've seen quite the upswing since computers and standardized testing became common grounds of ADD-type disorders and other randomized thought mutations giving people a harder and harder time to direct their conciousness. But I read too much about psychology to say what I think about these matters. I'm extremely sceptical of the "patch up" approach which enshrouds the entirety of our contemporary sociological philosophy. You hurt, you take a pill; you have a hard time sitting still, you take a pill.

While there is some merit to a supplemental learning tool which makes studying technique and theory(for example) in more fun ways, I'm all for that. But even since the introduction of tabs guitarists have become more or less notation-illiterates and can't read a page of music for the life of them. From the historical aspect, humans tend to take the easy approach more often then not, making comfort the standard. That is what worries me, practicing dynamics by statically measuring dB can never give you a sensation of relative crecendo something which many jazz musicians practice for ages. I've even heard of them geting assignments to play one note for weeks in different volume dynamics(talking about jazz pianists here).

I'm all for structure and trying out new ways as long as those new ways don't become a crutch which makes your legs deteriorate, if you know what I mean. smile.gif



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Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 22 2013, 08:49 AM
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To make things easy and short - we live in a time and society where speed is all that everybody needs wink.gif Speed can take many forms and one of them is getting to achieve supposedly great results in a field that would normally require a LOT of work, by other means, so that your friends can think 'oh how cool he is!' That's what's usually going on in the minds of kids between 13-19 for instance. So, using a goal oriented system can encourage the process of speed based learning, but once you got there, you may realize that everything you have achieved is gone simply because... you are not using it anymore smile.gif I've tested this on myself with engineering - I am a certified engineer but I forgot everything simply because I haven't used it. I only use the great principles that have stayed with me since I've finished college (structuring my thinking, learning how to analyze processes, learning how to look for what I need, being organized and organizing others) but everything else faded away, because my GOAL was to get out of there with as little trouble as possible - that was my goal smile.gif


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verciazghra
post Oct 22 2013, 03:58 PM
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That's all well and good my friend, however modern psychology tells us that by enforcing systems of thinking upon tasks we do, we litterally tie our thought processes to other activities which thereby may cause us to be unable to perform any of the arrived upon thoughts without the external activity. To some extent that's what we need to do and we're all thinking people, you as well as I think about stuff like "how to practice away from the instrument". But the further we come from that the more of a worry it may become, building a foundational neural network by associating reward systems other than "playing a song" when that's the goal, is like the pidgeon turning around in it's cage randomly because it once recieved food after doing so.

Goals related to structure can ofcourse be good when it's the kind of goals that promotes unhindered deepening of your interest, I'm just unsure which that will be with systems like this. While the outcome is unsure and I am just gently trying to communicate my "anxiety" and altruistic vision of what I think that music should be, like communication, a free form of expression; a way to feel freedom and to experience tranquillity. Through the googles of my scepticism this is going even more toward the racehorse mentality already so present in the guitar world.

Much love


QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Oct 22 2013, 07:49 AM) *
To make things easy and short - we live in a time and society where speed is all that everybody needs wink.gif Speed can take many forms and one of them is getting to achieve supposedly great results in a field that would normally require a LOT of work, by other means, so that your friends can think 'oh how cool he is!' That's what's usually going on in the minds of kids between 13-19 for instance. So, using a goal oriented system can encourage the process of speed based learning, but once you got there, you may realize that everything you have achieved is gone simply because... you are not using it anymore smile.gif I've tested this on myself with engineering - I am a certified engineer but I forgot everything simply because I haven't used it. I only use the great principles that have stayed with me since I've finished college (structuring my thinking, learning how to analyze processes, learning how to look for what I need, being organized and organizing others) but everything else faded away, because my GOAL was to get out of there with as little trouble as possible - that was my goal smile.gif


This post has been edited by verciazghra: Oct 23 2013, 11:19 AM


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klasaine
post Oct 22 2013, 05:31 PM
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Interesting discussion.

1) I'm kinda glad to see that I'm not the curmudgeonly one about the guitar 'game' topic in general laugh.gif
2) I'm old enough to remember the 'play guitar in 7 days' or 'learn piano now' ads that ran in newspapers, magazines and even on TV. With statements like, "you'll be playing your first song within half an hour" and "start improvising immediately" - which of course means nothing because anything can be considered 'improvisation' and there are 100s of songs that have two chords - so, theoretically, those statements aren't necessarily false. Sometimes they even featured known musicians espousing the revolutionary learning techniques of said method.

My point:
Did those 'snake oil' type of products foster a generation of musical automatons who could only play what those methods taught within the confines of 'the method'?

No.

Did they con a bunch of folks into thinking that they'd really learn to play? Of course.
Did a bunch of kids who ordered the 'play guitar in 7 days' method get really disappointed and just quit? Yes.
Did some become interested in guitar and move on to something more musically substantial? Yes.
Did some of them realize quickly that it was jive and then seek out a real guitar teacher? Yes.

... as is the case with Guitar Hero or Rocksmith or whatever. The serious ones will always be serious, see through whatever BS there is and overcome the obstacles needed to achieve (I'm not saying that Rocksmith is BS - it actually looks OK as self-teaching methods go.)

I tutor/coach kids at public Arts high school once a month or so. The program is 'audition only' to get in. These kids are pretty serious. Many have gone on to be working professionals.
Most of them play guitar hero, rockband and rocksmith. They all say that it's fun but that they get bored because it's not 'real'. *Keep in mind these kids play live music in school for up to 3 hours per day five days a week so for them there's really no comparison. All of us here know that actually playing with a living breathing band is like nothing else in the world. Like real racing or football as opposed to a video game. Once you taste it you kinda can't go back. You'll do the cyber version - maybe even enjoy it and/or find it 'instructive' but it's a little like eating pizza with a condom on your tongue.

Society in general right now is in a perceived intellectual decline. Art mirrors society. I say perceived because just like during the middle ages there were many pockets of intellectual advancement, forward thinking and enlightenment. The general population may wanna get stupid and just consume easy access crap but there's plenty of us that don't subscribe to that ethos and we raise our kids not to subscribe to that ethos. And so it goes.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Oct 23 2013, 03:43 PM


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Todd Simpson
post Oct 23 2013, 12:46 AM
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Well said smile.gif I think I get Verc's concern, but it may be a bit overly concerned perhaps? I'm sure there are plenty of folks who play and seek music for musics sake, like Verc for example smile.gif There are other folks that get started with vid games and move on to the real thing. while others play games only. I like Vercs quasi "utopian" vision of music and musicianship. It's important that we have people focused on pure music/communication. But I"m also glad we have other approaches represented here as well. It takes many voices to make a Choir smile.gif

Todd




QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 22 2013, 12:31 PM) *
Interesting discussion.

1) I'm kinda glad to see that I'm not the curmudgeonly one about the guitar 'game' topic in general laugh.gif
2) I'm old enough to remember the 'play guitar in 7 days' or 'learn piano now' ads that ran in newspapers, magazines and even on TV. With statements like, "you'll be playing your first song within half an hour" and "start improvising immediately" - which of course means nothing because anything can be considered 'improvisation' and there are 100s of songs that have two chords - so, theoretically, those statements aren't necessarily false. Sometimes they even featured known musicians espousing the revolutionary learning techniques of said method.

My point:
Did those 'snake oil' type of products foster a generation of musical automatons who could only play what those methods taught within the confines of 'the method'?

No.

Did they con a bunch of folks into thinking that they'd really learn to play? Of course.
Did a bunch of kids who ordered the 'play guitar in 7 days' method get really disappointed and just quit? Yes.
Did some of them realize it was jive and then seek out a real guitar teacher? Yes.

... as is the case with Guitar Hero or Rocksmith or whatever. The serious ones will always be serious, see through whatever BS there is and overcome the obstacles needed to achieve (I'm not saying that Rocksmith is BS - it actually looks OK as self-teaching methods go.)

I tutor/coach kids at public Arts high school once a month or so. The program is 'audition only' to get in. These kids are pretty serious. Many have gone on to be working professionals.
Most of them play guitar hero, rockband and rocksmith. They all say that it's fun but that they get bored because it's not 'real'. *Keep in mind these kids play live music in school for up to 3 hours per day five days a week so for them there's really no comparison. All of us here know that actually playing with a living breathing band is like nothing else in the world. Like real racing or football as opposed to a video game. Once you taste it you kinda can't go back. You'll do the cyber version - maybe even enjoy it and/or find it 'instructive' but it's a little like eating pizza with a condom on your tongue.

Society in general right now is in a perceived intellectual decline. Art mirrors society. I say perceived because just like during the middle ages there were many pockets of intellectual advancement, forward thinking and enlightenment. The general population may wanna get stupid and just consume easy access crap but there's plenty of us that don't subscribe to that ethos and we raise our kids not to subscribe to that ethos. And so it goes.


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Oct 23 2013, 12:47 AM


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Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 23 2013, 08:53 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 22 2013, 04:31 PM) *
Interesting discussion.

1) I'm kinda glad to see that I'm not the curmudgeonly one about the guitar 'game' topic in general laugh.gif
2) I'm old enough to remember the 'play guitar in 7 days' or 'learn piano now' ads that ran in newspapers, magazines and even on TV. With statements like, "you'll be playing your first song within half an hour" and "start improvising immediately" - which of course means nothing because anything can be considered 'improvisation' and there are 100s of songs that have two chords - so, theoretically, those statements aren't necessarily false. Sometimes they even featured known musicians espousing the revolutionary learning techniques of said method.

My point:
Did those 'snake oil' type of products foster a generation of musical automatons who could only play what those methods taught within the confines of 'the method'?

No.

Did they con a bunch of folks into thinking that they'd really learn to play? Of course.
Did a bunch of kids who ordered the 'play guitar in 7 days' method get really disappointed and just quit? Yes.
Did some of them realize it was jive and then seek out a real guitar teacher? Yes.

... as is the case with Guitar Hero or Rocksmith or whatever. The serious ones will always be serious, see through whatever BS there is and overcome the obstacles needed to achieve (I'm not saying that Rocksmith is BS - it actually looks OK as self-teaching methods go.)

I tutor/coach kids at public Arts high school once a month or so. The program is 'audition only' to get in. These kids are pretty serious. Many have gone on to be working professionals.
Most of them play guitar hero, rockband and rocksmith. They all say that it's fun but that they get bored because it's not 'real'. *Keep in mind these kids play live music in school for up to 3 hours per day five days a week so for them there's really no comparison. All of us here know that actually playing with a living breathing band is like nothing else in the world. Like real racing or football as opposed to a video game. Once you taste it you kinda can't go back. You'll do the cyber version - maybe even enjoy it and/or find it 'instructive' but it's a little like eating pizza with a condom on your tongue.

Society in general right now is in a perceived intellectual decline. Art mirrors society. I say perceived because just like during the middle ages there were many pockets of intellectual advancement, forward thinking and enlightenment. The general population may wanna get stupid and just consume easy access crap but there's plenty of us that don't subscribe to that ethos and we raise our kids not to subscribe to that ethos. And so it goes.


Ken - I think you need to copyright this expression: 'it's a little like eating pizza with a condom on your tongue' I will sure as well use it a lot from now on laugh.gif

Great thoughts here mate wink.gif


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klasaine
post Oct 23 2013, 03:45 PM
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Lol! Thanks.
I thought it was less vulgar than what my initial condom reference would've been.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 24 2013, 09:58 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Oct 23 2013, 02:45 PM) *
Lol! Thanks.
I thought it was less vulgar than what my initial condom reference would've been.


When the vulgarity is understood but nice words are being used instead - that's a true form of expression biggrin.gif My native language has a lot of puns like that and we always have fun when we hear someone come up with one that hasn't been used in common language since the 15-16 century for instance laugh.gif


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