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> Dedicated Guitar Monitors
Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 23 2013, 08:28 AM
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I was discussing in a different thread with Darius around the idea of monitoring your guitar onstage and out of the blue, I remembered I heard about these things:



The Mesa Boogie Recto Wedge 2x12 guitar monitor speakers. They are not being made anymore out of what I know, but I'd be curious to hear if anybody tried them or what you guys use for monitoring your guitar onstage?


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SixStringSamurai
post Oct 27 2013, 06:59 PM
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Oh wow, first time I've seen that! Interesting idea.

In my previous bands I usually sang at least a little, so I had guitar + vox coming out of my PA monitor/wedge in front of me.


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Mertay
post Oct 27 2013, 09:17 PM
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Is this monitor directly connected to the rig? (rather than PA console) , its probably ment to work together with various monitors you'll find on satges (guitar from this, band from the other). If so, I'd suspect it might have unique input/out compared to regular monitors.


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Bogdan Radovic
post Oct 27 2013, 09:21 PM
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Very interesting thread. I didn't know there were dedicated Guitar monitors out there. Usually we would play on monitors where whole band was mixed in but this does make sense to have dedicated guitar monitor + full band monitor (side by side) for the guitarists.


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Darius Wave
post Oct 27 2013, 10:47 PM
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I think this is great idea if You liek to hear exactly the same tone You give to sound engeneer. I found there are very often habbits of giving to much treble end because not being able to stand enough far away from the amp for example. This is great idea and I think I'll be buiyn similar in the future for my own comfort.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 28 2013, 08:45 AM
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Glad to hear I sparked your interest guys smile.gif

Out of what I know these are the only ones out there and they are out of production, but who knows? Mertay - it is most probably connected to the guitar amp as it is dedicated. I think it would only be fair for you to hear your tone as it comes out of the amp - that should bring you the most comfort onstage.

This post has been edited by Cosmin Lupu: Oct 28 2013, 08:45 AM


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pdf64
post Oct 28 2013, 09:59 AM
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My view is that it's a bad idea.
Regular guitar speakers are 1950s anachronisms from the perspective of todays sound reporduction technology , because they have a highly directional, highly filtered frequency response.
The effect of that is the tonal balance changes significantly depending on the angle of the listener to the speaker.
So as you move around stage, the sound changes.
ie they make very poor monitors

A far better option is to mike up the guitar rig and then feed that signal (or direct signal from pod etc) to the normal stage monitors, which will have a far more consistent response across the stage, as the performer moves about.
Pete

This post has been edited by pdf64: Oct 28 2013, 10:00 AM


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Darius Wave
post Oct 28 2013, 11:27 AM
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QUOTE (pdf64 @ Oct 28 2013, 09:59 AM) *
My view is that it's a bad idea.
Regular guitar speakers are 1950s anachronisms from the perspective of todays sound reporduction technology , because they have a highly directional, highly filtered frequency response.
The effect of that is the tonal balance changes significantly depending on the angle of the listener to the speaker.
So as you move around stage, the sound changes.
ie they make very poor monitors

A far better option is to mike up the guitar rig and then feed that signal (or direct signal from pod etc) to the normal stage monitors, which will have a far more consistent response across the stage, as the performer moves about.
Pete



When we have guitar cab it's the same situation with sound changing so I will not agree with this argument. But also...I was thinking about some specyfic situation. I like a lot to set the tone of the cab directly "to the ear" at speakers height. I hate to have "fizzy" tone on the front speakers. Usually when I hear my guitar in tho monitor I get directly the raw tone of the mic or...here's the "I wonder" factor...the sound after front eq? Any gig this situation is different and when I scroll the trebel down according to the tone in monitors I might get to dark tone at the front....so it's the "mouse and the cat" game between me and the sound engeneer. Now having Your tone from the cab directly in to Your face makes You able to have 100% of what the mic get's and You have a better control.

Also...in the small pubs when You have to be too close to the amp You have problems to hear high mids and treble. If You give too much of those, You'll "kill" Your audience flavour of listening.

Of course...I'm only considering this as an additional cab to regular straight cab on the stage.


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 28 2013, 04:14 PM
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It looks really cool but I wouldn't use something like this. I prefer normal monitors that could reproduce well all instruments since I usually just ask for vocals, bass and the other guitarist's guitar in my monitor mix. Sometimes I also a some of my guitar but I prefer a mix of everything an not just my guitar.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 29 2013, 08:43 AM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Oct 28 2013, 03:14 PM) *
It looks really cool but I wouldn't use something like this. I prefer normal monitors that could reproduce well all instruments since I usually just ask for vocals, bass and the other guitarist's guitar in my monitor mix. Sometimes I also a some of my guitar but I prefer a mix of everything an not just my guitar.


I always ask for a sum of all the instruments in my monitors as well, but it would be cool to have this one as a guitar dedicated one. Receiving your guitar in this one and the rest in a normal monitor.

I was also curious to know if you guys are working with in-ear monitors and how do the guitars feel in the in-ear for you?


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Todd Simpson
post Oct 29 2013, 11:37 PM
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Since this is an actual Mesa Cab, you could just put a mic on it smile.gif It's loaded with V30s to it's a honest to goodness cab, just back slanted. So it would project straight up to your face. As opposed to a straight 4x12 half stack that points directly at your legs and you have to bend down to hear what the mic is actually getting. front slant cabs address this to a degree, but the angle isn't as severe as these so not angled directly to the standing ear position.

In short, you could honestly use just this cab and probably be fine smile.gif You could hear yourself and put a mic on it for the house sound. But most folks that are used to 4x12 cabs would probably not want to rely entirely on 2x12. hmm.

This is a very specialty piece with a very specialty purpose but it's darn sexy and I'd like one smile.gif


Todd



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Todd Simpson
post Oct 30 2013, 08:30 AM
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While these type of monitors/cabs are CLEARLY NOT FOR EVERYONE based on the responses smile.gif I wanted to share a product I recently came across from MATRIX AMPS. They make the popular rack mounted amps that many folks who use AXE EFFECTS are choosing for amplification. Misha Mansoor, Tosin Abasi, etc.

In addition to amplifiers, they make a range of amplified and passive guitar cabinets that include "FULL RANGE" cabinets (Essentially a P.A. speaker, like I've talked about before, just stuffed in to a guitar cab) and a range of angled full range cabs similar to the shape of the boogie. These could be a primary cabinet for small gigs and some have built in amps. So you could just mic it and be done with it smile.gif

Again, NOT FOR EVERYONE, but clearly, these products have an audience especially among AXE FX/modeller fans smile.gif I considered using P.A. speakers myself when I switched to using a laptop with my rack guitar setup. But thankfully, my GENZ BENZ cab has such broad range that it can handle the highs/lows of software modelling smile.gif

Here is a link to the matrix cabinets and a pic.

http://uk.matrixamplification.com/speakers/cfr-12.html

Attached Image

From the web site


The Matrix CFR12 is a wedge style FRFR speaker designed specifically to meet the needs of guitarists using modelling amplifiers. With a full range, flat response, the CFR12 provides clarity and punch in a lightweight and portable package. Whether used as an on-stage monitor in the traditional monitor wedge style or as a backline on it's end for smaller gigs, or as a practice rig for home use, the CFR12 delivers your sound, without compromise. Utilising a Coaxial driver with a custom crossover developed by Matrix the CFR12 give a wide 80 degree dispersion of sound and handling 260w and rated at 8 ohm, the speaker packs a punch well above its' size and weight and competes sound wise with speakers far above it's price range. The CFR12 is a passive speaker and as such is a perfect match for our GT800FX, GT1000FX, GT1500FX and GT1600FX amplifers.


And here is the "FULL RANGE" P.A. type speaker (with tweeter!) stuffed in a guitar cab.

Attached Image

This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Oct 30 2013, 08:31 AM


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Darius Wave
post Oct 30 2013, 10:27 AM
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This is another solution indeed. I remember how popular was the topic "cab for POD" since simulation devices became very popular. Now we changed the leguae of gear but still old questions are there. You're right about the cab angle Todd but I think that this angled cab need less distance to get "straight in Your ear" angle than the distance You will need with regular cab. I will underline once again that I'm talking about some specyfic situations where You just can't reach the "sweet spot" distance with Your regular cab


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 30 2013, 03:44 PM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Oct 29 2013, 04:43 AM) *
I always ask for a sum of all the instruments in my monitors as well, but it would be cool to have this one as a guitar dedicated one. Receiving your guitar in this one and the rest in a normal monitor.

I was also curious to know if you guys are working with in-ear monitors and how do the guitars feel in the in-ear for you?



I have never used them but It something that I would really like to get in the future. I think that it's the solution to have a perfect and controlled monitoring of each instrument that you want. It's the best way to hear your guitar all time, no matter if you move too much on stage, without disturbing other bandmates monitors. I know that I will feel weird at first but I think that it's the best solution. Cirse's singer has used it for more than 8 years and she is very happy with them.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 30 2013, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Oct 30 2013, 02:44 PM) *
I have never used them but It something that I would really like to get in the future. I think that it's the solution to have a perfect and controlled monitoring of each instrument that you want. It's the best way to hear your guitar all time, no matter if you move too much on stage, without disturbing other bandmates monitors. I know that I will feel weird at first but I think that it's the best solution. Cirse's singer has used it for more than 8 years and she is very happy with them.


I invested 700 dollars in a pair of custom made in-ear monitors, with a shell molded after the shape of my inner ear and having 3 speakers in each shell. I have never in my life experienced such a clear crystalline sound, to be honest and since I had a pair of Shure PSM in ear monitors that came with the whole system, I had something to compare these to. I still haven't tried playing the guitar and monitoring myself with them as I like to feel the guitars loud on stage, but since my audiogram reflected some damage to my hearing (slight, but still existent) I am thinking of trying to use them all the time.


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Todd Simpson
post Oct 31 2013, 02:01 AM
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I agree all the way that the IN EAR MONITORS are by far the most accurate and most efficient means of monitoring. Good call! They also allow reduction of Stage Volume. Stage volume is often how musicians start to lose their hearing. With a good processor, like the axe fx/kemper even a pod, you can run direct and monitor with an IN EAR system and remove your stage volume entirely if needed. smile.gif

However, as folks usually start with a combo, generally pickup a larger combo/half stack at some point and use that live for quite some time. Considering the speaker angle before the purchase would probably save a lot of headache and grief. Until of course you get to the spot where the band is comfortable using IN EAR solutions for practice and or live smile.gif

IN EAR solutions are not cheap, then again, neither is a nice half stack smile.gif But no matter what it costs, it's cheaper than trying to have your damaged hearing fixed!!

I do sometimes still wonder while folks like Tosin Abasi still use a live amp rig at all, now that he and everybody else is using an AXE FX, the stage rig is superfluous to a point. But then I'm reminded of many bands using entirely fake cabinets/amps just for show. It's just expected that a band with heavy guitars is going to have BIG IRON AMPS on stage with cabs. So much so that some bands run the axe fx/kemper direct and just put empty speaker cabs on stage as mentioned. It's hard for fans not to see this as "posing" by the band. But it makes sense. They want to show the audience what they expect, but want good tone in changing venues so they use a processor and in ear monitors. smile.gif



Todd




QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Oct 30 2013, 02:08 PM) *
I invested 700 dollars in a pair of custom made in-ear monitors, with a shell molded after the shape of my inner ear and having 3 speakers in each shell. I have never in my life experienced such a clear crystalline sound, to be honest and since I had a pair of Shure PSM in ear monitors that came with the whole system, I had something to compare these to. I still haven't tried playing the guitar and monitoring myself with them as I like to feel the guitars loud on stage, but since my audiogram reflected some damage to my hearing (slight, but still existent) I am thinking of trying to use them all the time.


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SirJamsalot
post Oct 31 2013, 05:37 AM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Oct 29 2013, 12:43 AM) *
I always ask for a sum of all the instruments in my monitors as well, but it would be cool to have this one as a guitar dedicated one. Receiving your guitar in this one and the rest in a normal monitor.

I was also curious to know if you guys are working with in-ear monitors and how do the guitars feel in the in-ear for you?


I almost bought some in-ears, but the price was too hefty. I opted instead for some moulded ear-plugs - which I love! But one day I hope to get an in-ear monitoring system.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 31 2013, 10:57 AM
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At first I thought that they are pricey and I was thinking if it's really necessary, but after realizing that my control onstage is the most essential thing, especially when I have to sing. I also found out that even with great control - it's still a very difficult task to pay attention to the instruments and additional vocals on the backing tracks and keep your voice in pitch all the time while also running around and keeping the crowd entertained. There's simply no way to do that without in ear monitoring and... if you have a guitar strapped on your back as well, things get even nastier biggrin.gif So I thought it was a VERY good deal after all wink.gif


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Darius Wave
post Oct 31 2013, 11:19 AM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Oct 31 2013, 10:57 AM) *
At first I thought that they are pricey and I was thinking if it's really necessary, but after realizing that my control onstage is the most essential thing, especially when I have to sing. I also found out that even with great control - it's still a very difficult task to pay attention to the instruments and additional vocals on the backing tracks and keep your voice in pitch all the time while also running around and keeping the crowd entertained. There's simply no way to do that without in ear monitoring and... if you have a guitar strapped on your back as well, things get even nastier biggrin.gif So I thought it was a VERY good deal after all wink.gif


I'm never a main voice in any band but I often do backing vocals and I know exactly what You mean smile.gif


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Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 31 2013, 06:18 PM
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QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Oct 31 2013, 10:19 AM) *
I'm never a main voice in any band but I often do backing vocals and I know exactly what You mean smile.gif


biggrin.gif hehe - so, might be you will try the in ear monitoring yourself, then?


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