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> Enlo22 - The Mighty Mixer Meister, mixing workshop
Darius Wave
post Nov 14 2013, 02:30 PM
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Good interface really deos a job but I'm still confused about usb devices. Mostly about not knowing the reason of direct monitoring issues...:/ I now own Presonus audio box usb at work and still didn't find a good setup that solves the problem. Now funny thing - I've got a pretty old presonus inspire 1394 firewire at home...and it's stable as hell and even works perfect with new PC.

Did You try to change the buffer size of gx processing?


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enlo22
post Nov 17 2013, 01:07 AM
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QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 14 2013, 01:30 PM) *
Good interface really deos a job but I'm still confused about usb devices. Mostly about not knowing the reason of direct monitoring issues...:/ I now own Presonus audio box usb at work and still didn't find a good setup that solves the problem. Now funny thing - I've got a pretty old presonus inspire 1394 firewire at home...and it's stable as hell and even works perfect with new PC.

Did You try to change the buffer size of gx processing?

'

everything with the recording goes well, it's just when i open tons of plug ins lol I think i'll have to wait till i get a better computer and work with what i have now. do you have anymore tips on mixing? i feel like i was really improving and i want to keep on going! smile.gif


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Darius Wave
post Nov 17 2013, 12:10 PM
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No worries man! But first try to answer about the buffer size (it's changeable in the GX control panel). You can always make smaller buffer and turn of some of the plug-ins when You want to record guitars but...When You need more memory usage for finall mixing, You can make huge buffer size.

Believe me...Your PC is not that bad. I'm so pissed of for all those usb audio devices. Firewire wa much more stable I handled way advanced sessions with tons of plug-ins on the very simple PC. For example:

My old PC was Athlon 2 x 2,6 Dual Core + 2 GB RAM. I used it with Presonus inspire 1394 interface. Worked for Years! I could have virtual drums, all drums vst plug-ins added, a few reverbs on the FX sends, Virtual orchestra , Virtual keyboards, at least 3 to 4 amp sim + 1 bass amp sim and compressors, EQs and a lot more in one session. I could even record guitars with low latency. It worked really fine.

Now ...At work I have Asus KI50 (or something like this) with T4200 (also dual but much more efficient processor than Athlon) 4 Gb ram and a few more parameters like disc sped and ram speed much better than the PC mentioned before. And I plug a USB audio box to it and guess what? It's worth nothing. It works without a crackling only on the highest buffer size wchich is useless for live monitoring while You want to record guitars on the vst amps. I'm angry ass hell because it's very hard to find notebooks with firewire and texas instruments chipset right now and the USB substitute sucks. I wouldn't write this If I didn't try to make it work for almost year.


Good news is...Firewire devices become "old stuff" so they got cheaper, yet more efficient on older PC's. You will probably buy one in the very good price range. Try to google presounus Inspire 1394 firewire


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Nov 17 2013, 03:25 PM
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QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 17 2013, 12:10 PM) *
No worries man! But first try to answer about the buffer size (it's changeable in the GX control panel). You can always make smaller buffer and turn of some of the plug-ins when You want to record guitars but...When You need more memory usage for finall mixing, You can make huge buffer size.

Believe me...Your PC is not that bad. I'm so pissed of for all those usb audio devices. Firewire wa much more stable I handled way advanced sessions with tons of plug-ins on the very simple PC. For example:

My old PC was Athlon 2 x 2,6 Dual Core + 2 GB RAM. I used it with Presonus inspire 1394 interface. Worked for Years! I could have virtual drums, all drums vst plug-ins added, a few reverbs on the FX sends, Virtual orchestra , Virtual keyboards, at least 3 to 4 amp sim + 1 bass amp sim and compressors, EQs and a lot more in one session. I could even record guitars with low latency. It worked really fine.

Now ...At work I have Asus KI50 (or something like this) with T4200 (also dual but much more efficient processor than Athlon) 4 Gb ram and a few more parameters like disc sped and ram speed much better than the PC mentioned before. And I plug a USB audio box to it and guess what? It's worth nothing. It works without a crackling only on the highest buffer size wchich is useless for live monitoring while You want to record guitars on the vst amps. I'm angry ass hell because it's very hard to find notebooks with firewire and texas instruments chipset right now and the USB substitute sucks. I wouldn't write this If I didn't try to make it work for almost year.


Good news is...Firewire devices become "old stuff" so they got cheaper, yet more efficient on older PC's. You will probably buy one in the very good price range. Try to google presounus Inspire 1394 firewire


Sorry for butting in just to echo what Darius is saying and I thought that Darius may find this helpful/interesting:

FW sends data as a bidirectional stream rather than as packets, which is how USB does audio. Part of the thing with packet transmission is that the device has to wait until it has received all of the packet before it can start to receive/send a new one. FW also has dedicated bus bandwidth for the synchronous/isosynchronous stream whilst USB shares a bus with other devices. USB can therefore suffer audio issues that just doesn't occur with FW. FW also taxes the cpu much less than USB as it has a dedicated controller. All of this results in a situation where FW is better at audio than USB 1, 1.1 and 2.

USB audio performance is much better though if you use stream length asynchronous USB but many, particularly the prosumer models, only use adaptive mode. Asynchronous here results in lower jitter than adaptive as the latter needs to check the computer's master clock every 1ms or so via a frequency synthesiser. As the computer is doing many other things you end up with timing variations in the audio transfer which in turn induce jitter and you end up with what sounds like a distorted and noisy signal.

If you use USB it may be worth checking where the card is placed and what other peripherals it shares that with. You might possibly get a performance improvement by moving the card to a different slot and so change what devices share with it. But performance is also abut how good the drivers and hardware are. If you use audio device which has poor drivers and poor chips it won't matter if its FW or USB it will still suck.

If you're getting clicks and pops these may be down to timing/jitter. If this is the case you should set one device as the master clock and slave any other external device to it. There are other, often more probable, causes of pops and clicks though starting with the usual buffer size. Others include incorrect transfer settings for an IDE hard drive (it should be DMA), background tasks running, old PCI cards sending interupts to the cpu...


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enlo22
post Nov 17 2013, 05:12 PM
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I think i found a good solution which is to use Podfarm to send the clean signal to reaper and then i set up the GX into reaper as an ASIO instead of ASIO4ALL because that's why it was lagging like crazyyy. I also found the buffer size, which also helped! smile.gif thanks for the tip, when i have money i'lll look into other interfaces which would work better for me! i'm going to send you some of the thigns i've been working on so you can have a look at it!


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enlo22
post Nov 18 2013, 04:15 AM
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here's something new, it's part of a song i'm working on now smile.gif as always your mixing tips are super welcomed!
still now bass though :/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWZBGQqCbHY


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Darius Wave
post Nov 18 2013, 02:40 PM
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Nice work! Your nex raw song sample sounds better. The lack of bass hurts as hell. Did You try to launch 4fronbass after You figured out about the correct asio option ?smile.gif


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enlo22
post Nov 19 2013, 07:06 AM
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QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 18 2013, 01:40 PM) *
Nice work! Your nex raw song sample sounds better. The lack of bass hurts as hell. Did You try to launch 4fronbass after You figured out about the correct asio option ?smile.gif


yes I finally figured out the ASIO thing! smile.gif i agree the lack of bass does impact it :/ hopefully i can get my hands on one soon! as for the fronbass i will have to deff add it for now, just trying to get the guitar parts to mash up well lol, i can't think of an ending for the track!


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Darius Wave
post Nov 19 2013, 12:42 PM
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The problem is that...guitars are the juicy middle frequencies in the mix. Take a close look at some modern recording...Se how thin guitar sounds when it's left alone for some "no bass, no drums" break. Whole trick about metal music is that people create ultra solid low end feel that we consider guitars being powerfull but the truth is that their power is in the bass drum and bass good fit. This is why It's so important. Messing with guitar low end is useless because You'll might find You have to change everything again once You add the bass smile.gif


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enlo22
post Nov 21 2013, 12:40 AM
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QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 19 2013, 11:42 AM) *
The problem is that...guitars are the juicy middle frequencies in the mix. Take a close look at some modern recording...Se how thin guitar sounds when it's left alone for some "no bass, no drums" break. Whole trick about metal music is that people create ultra solid low end feel that we consider guitars being powerfull but the truth is that their power is in the bass drum and bass good fit. This is why It's so important. Messing with guitar low end is useless because You'll might find You have to change everything again once You add the bass smile.gif



ok here's a part of it with bass that i have added. i'm still super confused now that the bass is added!


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Darius Wave
post Nov 21 2013, 12:54 PM
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Ok...Now. 4Front bass sounds not good to metal at all. It needs some other plug in...

Try to download Bass tube amplifier here:

http://www.igniteamps.com/en/audio-plug-ins

and kefir impulse loader.
+ some bass cab impulses

Try to serah from this point. I remember I found some cool ampeg cab impulses

http://www.guitarampmodeling.com/viewtopic...f=32&t=1096

Load ignite amp + kefir to the bass vst audio track inserts. Ignite sounds cooliven without a cab but If You like more sharp tone of the bass than cab impulse will give very cool and sharp midrange.

Also...I think You should make the bass line much more "copy-like" of the guitars to get more solid tone.

All the things we do now relate to the most important aspects of recording. Beofre going to the real mixing thing (eq, compression tec) we need to make sure about all the playing, raw recorded instruments tone fit to each other. Very often when we have those things done well, then mixing is just a soft color change of whole that thing but not the key to make it sound good smile.gif

That's way we took so many attention to

1. Arrange
2. Drums samples choice
3. Velocity
4. bass plug-in choice
5. Bass amp sim plug-in

etc...


Your guitar tone is ok for now and We'll go back to it as quick as we handle the section set up smile.gif


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enlo22
post Nov 21 2013, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 21 2013, 11:54 AM) *
Ok...Now. 4Front bass sounds not good to metal at all. It needs some other plug in...

Try to download Bass tube amplifier here:

http://www.igniteamps.com/en/audio-plug-ins

and kefir impulse loader.
+ some bass cab impulses

Try to serah from this point. I remember I found some cool ampeg cab impulses

http://www.guitarampmodeling.com/viewtopic...f=32&t=1096

Load ignite amp + kefir to the bass vst audio track inserts. Ignite sounds cooliven without a cab but If You like more sharp tone of the bass than cab impulse will give very cool and sharp midrange.

Also...I think You should make the bass line much more "copy-like" of the guitars to get more solid tone.

All the things we do now relate to the most important aspects of recording. Beofre going to the real mixing thing (eq, compression tec) we need to make sure about all the playing, raw recorded instruments tone fit to each other. Very often when we have those things done well, then mixing is just a soft color change of whole that thing but not the key to make it sound good smile.gif

That's way we took so many attention to

1. Arrange
2. Drums samples choice
3. Velocity
4. bass plug-in choice
5. Bass amp sim plug-in

etc...


Your guitar tone is ok for now and We'll go back to it as quick as we handle the section set up smile.gif



I actually made the "bass" by using my guitar tongue.gif which i don't know if it's the best idea at all, i just was told to try it by someone. I took the shifter thing and took it down -12 semitones. Maybe it was a dumb idea lol. I have the kefir thing. For some reason i can't seem to get used to writing the stuff on MIDI! it drives me crazy, I redid it with the ignite amp, and this is what it came out like

This post has been edited by enlo22: Nov 21 2013, 07:00 PM


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Darius Wave
post Nov 23 2013, 05:13 PM
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No I'm afraid it still doesn't do the job. I tried many times but:

1. Once going octave down with audio processing, the tune is not stable enough
2. Bass guitar will have much more high mid and treble harmonics which makes Your bass have nice attack and also will be visible even on laptop speakers smile.gif

Learning how to draw midi files is a must If You want to achieve descent recordings. One of the reasons is that if You're not a skilled piano player You might not get good dynamics and timming results just by playing on the midi keyboard (believe me). I can play keyboard a bit but...very often need to correct the "drawings" anyway because of failed timming or dynamics (maybe You're better piano player than me but...if not...lear to draw - it will help You a lot with maaaany things


I can show You a quick sample of full signal chain for bass metal tone using 4front bass, ignite tube bass amp and kefir + bass impulse. 4Front bass is very muddy sounding precission bass sampler. It's raw sound is far away from being metal but...possible to fit the mix well enough even with it's loss of presence.

Audio sample:

Attached File  bass_4front_sample.wav ( 1.35MB ) Number of downloads: 64


Every midi instrument has it's audio output track too so You can insert all the amp sim, cab, eq plug-ins like

1. Ignite amps:

Attached Image

2. Kefir impulse loader:

Attached Image

3. EQ

Attached Image


Those particular screens show You exaclty the settings for this audio sample

IMPORTANT! - those settings are just a "how could it sound" but will not sound well everywhere - each mix needs individual eq-ing.
Those are just a good starting point to tweak As You can see the "boxy" low mids are cutted (that's the space for guitars, toms ,snare body ect in the whole mix). In most of my recordings I usually only need to cut the man bass drum frequency in the bass guitar track and cut those low mids...but this one needs extra high mids addition because raw sample is very dark on it's own. In terms of professional mixing it would probably go to trash and the sound engeneer would say "go and borrow a bass that fit's this kind of playing" rather than trying to make miracles with EQ compression etc. Raw recoreded instruments sound is 80 % sound of the mix.


Here You have the bass impulse I used:

Attached File  Ampeg_V4_B_custom_beta52.wav ( 14.24K ) Number of downloads: 67



You can easily fin Kefir loader to download in google wink.gif


Now I don't know how it looks in reaper but in Cubase when You click on the midi track (the one You send to 4Front bass) You have also a link (place with mouse on the print screen) where You can launch normal (same as regular audio track) options for the sound You get from (not before) the 4Front bass. Rest of the plug-ins will "see it" as a regular bass wave.

Attached Image


Try to launch it on Your PC and let me know how it went smile.gif




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enlo22
post Nov 23 2013, 11:08 PM
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QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 23 2013, 04:13 PM) *
No I'm afraid it still doesn't do the job. I tried many times but:

1. Once going octave down with audio processing, the tune is not stable enough
2. Bass guitar will have much more high mid and treble harmonics which makes Your bass have nice attack and also will be visible even on laptop speakers smile.gif

Learning how to draw midi files is a must If You want to achieve descent recordings. One of the reasons is that if You're not a skilled piano player You might not get good dynamics and timming results just by playing on the midi keyboard (believe me). I can play keyboard a bit but...very often need to correct the "drawings" anyway because of failed timming or dynamics (maybe You're better piano player than me but...if not...lear to draw - it will help You a lot with maaaany things


I can show You a quick sample of full signal chain for bass metal tone using 4front bass, ignite tube bass amp and kefir + bass impulse. 4Front bass is very muddy sounding precission bass sampler. It's raw sound is far away from being metal but...possible to fit the mix well enough even with it's loss of presence.

Audio sample:

Attached File  bass_4front_sample.wav ( 1.35MB ) Number of downloads: 64


Every midi instrument has it's audio output track too so You can insert all the amp sim, cab, eq plug-ins like

1. Ignite amps:

Attached Image

2. Kefir impulse loader:

Attached Image

3. EQ

Attached Image


Those particular screens show You exaclty the settings for this audio sample

IMPORTANT! - those settings are just a "how could it sound" but will not sound well everywhere - each mix needs individual eq-ing.
Those are just a good starting point to tweak As You can see the "boxy" low mids are cutted (that's the space for guitars, toms ,snare body ect in the whole mix). In most of my recordings I usually only need to cut the man bass drum frequency in the bass guitar track and cut those low mids...but this one needs extra high mids addition because raw sample is very dark on it's own. In terms of professional mixing it would probably go to trash and the sound engeneer would say "go and borrow a bass that fit's this kind of playing" rather than trying to make miracles with EQ compression etc. Raw recoreded instruments sound is 80 % sound of the mix.


Here You have the bass impulse I used:

Attached File  Ampeg_V4_B_custom_beta52.wav ( 14.24K ) Number of downloads: 67



You can easily fin Kefir loader to download in google wink.gif


Now I don't know how it looks in reaper but in Cubase when You click on the midi track (the one You send to 4Front bass) You have also a link (place with mouse on the print screen) where You can launch normal (same as regular audio track) options for the sound You get from (not before) the 4Front bass. Rest of the plug-ins will "see it" as a regular bass wave.

Attached Image


Try to launch it on Your PC and let me know how it went smile.gif



ok I used the Ignite with the Kefir, and the eq that you posted tongue.gif I changed some of the guitars from a toturial from youtube, so this is the latest sound


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Darius Wave
post Nov 23 2013, 11:34 PM
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If You can please turn of the guitars for now. Send me just the drums and bass mix. At the moment guitar lay over bass to much. They don't gibe solid low end. Also...drums sound very monophonic. Please list exactly how You set up all drums outputs. Also.. You drums reverb sound like mono fx track ...make sure You add stereo FX track for reverb plug-in. We are styill far away from messing with the mids which is crutial to metal playing - all the feel of heavyness is correct mid scoop. Please install Span and turn it on to the main output track of Your DAW session so You will see frequency analysis of all mix.


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enlo22
post Nov 25 2013, 12:49 AM
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QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 23 2013, 10:34 PM) *
If You can please turn of the guitars for now. Send me just the drums and bass mix. At the moment guitar lay over bass to much. They don't gibe solid low end. Also...drums sound very monophonic. Please list exactly how You set up all drums outputs. Also.. You drums reverb sound like mono fx track ...make sure You add stereo FX track for reverb plug-in. We are styill far away from messing with the mids which is crutial to metal playing - all the feel of heavyness is correct mid scoop. Please install Span and turn it on to the main output track of Your DAW session so You will see frequency analysis of all mix.


ok so I got Superior Drummer! smile.gif i'm super happy BUT it's new to me, the way I sent the drum tracks are with the multichannel. Here's the bass and drums alone, I think superior drummer might help me hopefully! i've been watching youtube videos and stuff to mixing etc too!


This post has been edited by enlo22: Nov 25 2013, 05:59 AM


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Darius Wave
post Nov 25 2013, 11:16 AM
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Great You got supperior. DFH sounds too plastic for my taste. Toomuch post-processing done.

Now...first of All. show me the print screen of SPAN while the bass drum hit. We want to find main bass drum frequency in the low freq range. Try to type the value of the highest point of the low end frewq from the bass drum You choose. We want to cut if from the bass track. Your bass is much to quiet. I think that at least 3-4 dB boost is necessary.


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enlo22
post Nov 25 2013, 04:46 PM
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QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Nov 25 2013, 10:16 AM) *
Great You got supperior. DFH sounds too plastic for my taste. Toomuch post-processing done.

Now...first of All. show me the print screen of SPAN while the bass drum hit. We want to find main bass drum frequency in the low freq range. Try to type the value of the highest point of the low end frewq from the bass drum You choose. We want to cut if from the bass track. Your bass is much to quiet. I think that at least 3-4 dB boost is necessary.


how do I do the print screen! sorry i'm dumb ahha, i iwll boost the bass for now!


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enlo22
post Nov 25 2013, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (enlo22 @ Nov 25 2013, 03:46 PM) *
how do I do the print screen! sorry i'm dumb ahha, i iwll boost the bass for now!



hahha I figured it out on google! so here's the screen shot


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Darius Wave
post Nov 25 2013, 07:55 PM
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was the bass guitar muted when You were doing that screen ? smile.gif It has to be...we only want to see where's the bass drum main frequency smile.gif


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