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Taka Perry
post Dec 13 2013, 12:33 AM
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I was recording some stuff and realized I really need monitors. I've known it for a while, but I finally know I need them ohmy.gif

I'm recording a song at the moment, and was wondering if anyone would be able to have a listen to it on their system and tell me if there is any mix issues? If so, I will send you the file. Thank you very much smile.gif


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Todd Simpson
post Dec 13 2013, 02:33 AM
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Hmm. Well, you might just post the file or even a clip here, but to be honest, it will be tough to get really good results given how vastly different everyones systems are. The guy with one of the most precise systems is probably toni miro. Like most folks, I mix in a room that was never built for mixing. You will probably get a lot better result out of getting a pair of monitors to be honest. But post a bit of the clip and see what folks say smile.gif

Todd




QUOTE (Taka Perry @ Dec 12 2013, 06:33 PM) *
I was recording some stuff and realized I really need monitors. I've known it for a while, but I finally know I need them ohmy.gif

I'm recording a song at the moment, and was wondering if anyone would be able to have a listen to it on their system and tell me if there is any mix issues? If so, I will send you the file. Thank you very much smile.gif



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Taka Perry
post Dec 13 2013, 06:11 AM
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I was planning on keeping it off the internet until I release, but it's probably better to get everyone's opinion smile.gif Thanks Todd


If you've got a moment, please listen and critique/constructive feedback this mix please. The part I don't feel satisfied the most with in this mix is the lower end frequencies, something just seems 'wrong' about the bass :S Thanks a lot!

Attached File  Track_Draft_1.mp3 ( 12.21MB ) Number of downloads: 128


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Todd Simpson
post Dec 13 2013, 08:20 AM
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Your probably ok to put it up and get some feedback at pretty much every stage of it's development. No reason to keep it under wraps to be honest unless you are afraid someone is going to "pirate" it smile.gif Kidding of course. Piracy is your friend to be honest until you reach a certain level of fan awareness and even then it's really just promo. But of course, some folks really get chaffed at this idea. Such is life wink.gif

Anyhoo, I"ll give it a listen and report back.

Update:

Well, it sounds workable to me smile.gif Considering you are mixing it almost blind it's actually pretty good. Maybe a bit of a hump in the low mid/upper bass range but nothing to far out. But yeah, being able to hear your own mix is really important. Start saving up to get a pair of real monitors. The usual suspects in the price range of course per the countless times it's been gone over in the forums. I'm guessing you've read those threads as they've come up? In short, KRK, ALESIS, ADAM, JBL, MACKIE all make decent near field monitors for folks on a budget. Put your ears on a few pair next time your at a music store to see which ones you like smile.gif

Todd


QUOTE (Taka Perry @ Dec 13 2013, 12:11 AM) *
I was planning on keeping it off the internet until I release, but it's probably better to get everyone's opinion smile.gif Thanks Todd


If you've got a moment, please listen and critique/constructive feedback this mix please. The part I don't feel satisfied the most with in this mix is the lower end frequencies, something just seems 'wrong' about the bass :S Thanks a lot!

Attached File  Track_Draft_1.mp3 ( 12.21MB ) Number of downloads: 128


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Dec 13 2013, 08:26 AM


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Darius Wave
post Dec 13 2013, 10:03 AM
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I'll give it a try when I'll be back home, My home studio is prepared for many different audio hear rehearsal. Many things depend on taste but there are a few common issues that are considered being wrong no matter what is Your taste. So If I catch anything bad I'll try to help You.


BTW. About the monitors. The thing is not as simple as it seems. That's exactly what I though before buying mine. The problem is Your reference point of what a good tone is...comes from the records played on the gear You are used to. Very first thing You will probably do is getting the tone of Your old speakers on the brand new monitors while mixing. Now...going back to playback Your mix on old speakers You will find it doesn't sound any close to what You like.

From my expireince very first home audio vs studio monitors issues are:

1. You are used to a ton of low and from the sub - You will probably use too much low end while mixing on monitors.

2. Most of monitors reach very high frequencies. Level of treble end is high so at the beginng You might take of too much highs to getclose to the tone You know. But...doing playback on old speakers You will hear lack of treble

3. "In face" midrange - most of monitors have much more detailed mids. You might cut too much of those on monitors and find the lack of mids while listening on the old speakers.


So...it's not as simple as You might think. You will need some time to get used to those.

To be honest I still keep my very first 2 + 1 sub pc speakers to veryfiy the mixes. It's because I grew on the sound of those and while getting some professional gear I bacame confused what sound good and what doesn't.



This post has been edited by Darius Wave: Dec 13 2013, 10:12 AM


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Dec 13 2013, 10:54 AM
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Just on the mix (the performance etc seem fine)...

Any comments are going to be rather limited as an mp3 really isn't suitable due to the inherent compression issues with transcoding.
What I would say is that the gainstaging seems wrong, the track has a rather digital quality to it and it sounds a bit 2 dimensional and flat.

I've only had a quick listen on a laptop. If you can put the track up as an uncompressed wave I'll try and give it a proper listen in the studio when we've a bit of free time.


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Taka Perry
post Dec 13 2013, 12:22 PM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ Dec 13 2013, 08:54 PM) *
Just on the mix (the performance etc seem fine)...

Any comments are going to be rather limited as an mp3 really isn't suitable due to the inherent compression issues with transcoding.
What I would say is that the gainstaging seems wrong, the track has a rather digital quality to it and it sounds a bit 2 dimensional and flat.

I've only had a quick listen on a laptop. If you can put the track up as an uncompressed wave I'll try and give it a proper listen in the studio when we've a bit of free time.


Thank you very much. Would a FLAC be fine with you? I'll PM you a link once I upload it (I'll upload it somewhere else so I don't kill GMC servers biggrin.gif)


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Dec 13 2013, 12:52 PM
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Sorry but I'd need a wave file not FLAc Taka.


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Darius Wave
post Dec 13 2013, 08:29 PM
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Ok. Listened a few times:

1 Matter of taste - I would probably remove some midds from drums (the take too much space in the mix) but it can be the way it is...just a matter of "different band tone" school

2. I had feeling like instruments play in different rooms. Usually when we make a mix we try to create a stage feel. It's very important to keep similar room size for all instruments - You can create a few different fx track with different low and hign cut, different decay and predely but it's usually good to keep one room size for all instruments in the mix. Now there is a feeling drums play somewhere else


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Taka Perry
post Dec 13 2013, 09:42 PM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ Dec 13 2013, 10:52 PM) *
Sorry but I'd need a wave file not FLAc Taka.


No worries man, I'll try and send one to you later today smile.gif thank you

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Dec 14 2013, 06:29 AM) *
Ok. Listened a few times:

1 Matter of taste - I would probably remove some midds from drums (the take too much space in the mix) but it can be the way it is...just a matter of "different band tone" school

2. I had feeling like instruments play in different rooms. Usually when we make a mix we try to create a stage feel. It's very important to keep similar room size for all instruments - You can create a few different fx track with different low and hign cut, different decay and predely but it's usually good to keep one room size for all instruments in the mix. Now there is a feeling drums play somewhere else


Hey Darius, I'll try fixing the drums. I'm using EZDrummmer so my options are a little limited. Maybe a gentle mid cut with an EQ may do the job?

About the room size, I'm guessing that mainly depends on reverb settings and EQ. Now that you mention it I can definitely see what you mean. I'll have a fiddle on my DAW later today. Thanks heaps biggrin.gif


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Darius Wave
post Dec 13 2013, 09:50 PM
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EZD is EZ to detect mate smile.gif)) First of all....star using multitrack option if You don't do it yet. You can operate with all eq, compression and reverbs for every single track. Just right click on the grey space (trk names) in the bottom of EZD mixer). I used EZD for quite some time. You can get wayyy different sounds from it while manually processing each track:





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Todd Simpson
post Dec 14 2013, 04:43 AM
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This is a very good suggestion! If you are not already doing so, doing the "multi out" from EZ drummer can work wonders for your mix. Using ex drummer on just two tracks is something that works fine for demos and such but give it a try using the multi out.







QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Dec 13 2013, 03:50 PM) *
EZD is EZ to detect mate smile.gif)) First of all....star using multitrack option if You don't do it yet. You can operate with all eq, compression and reverbs for every single track. Just right click on the grey space (trk names) in the bottom of EZD mixer). I used EZD for quite some time. You can get wayyy different sounds from it while manually processing each track:




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Taka Perry
post Dec 14 2013, 05:07 AM
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Wow, never tried that. Thanks a lot! The old drum machine plugin I used to use had this, so I'm glad to see EZDrummer has the same functionality.

If I understand correctly the samples in EZDrummer are already equalised/compressed so I'm assuming I wouldn't want to just add a compressor to the signal chain and over-compress it.


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Darius Wave
post Dec 14 2013, 10:37 AM
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EZD drummer samples are processed but not that much (comparing to drum kit from hell). You can send top and bottom snare mics to 2 different track and add some compression only to the "snare top" mic. You can also send both to one DAW track and add one,common compressor. Make experiments - just be careful with those (trust Your ears).

Personally I would say EZD will always need additional eq to fit with other instruments in the mix (at least for modern music) it takes a bit too much of "body" so often You need to cut some mids where guitars are smile.gif


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Dec 17 2013, 01:53 PM
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Just some quick comments on the mix for Taka.

I thought the tune was a nice composition and three is some good developmet but the mix does need work. Before I say anything though I would stress that for a home/project mix this isn't that bad. Most of these issues plague home/project mixes generally and often to a greater extent than Taka's.

The gainstaging isn't right - and this is true of a large number, possibly the majority of project studio mixes, not just Taka's. (I've had mixes from some 'pro' mix engineers who need to redo their gainstaging.) Two of the immediate consequences of that are that there is noticeable noise in quite a few places and there is evident distortion. Ideally the tune needs to be mixed again with correct gainstaging and fader placement/levels to make more appropriate use of dynamic range, reduce noise and avoid distortion and clipping. Some of the instruments/parts sound as if they were recorded 'hot' and that then exacerbates gainstaging issues. I think you're falling in to the trap of trying to get the 2bus to the same level as a mastered CD. Mixing is not mastering and you should as a minimum keep the two stages separate and not confuse them and ideally you shouldn't master your own material.

The track, at least to me, sounds 'digital' and rather over processed. At times the keys sound thin and lacking in depth, the cymbals similarly have a digital type sheen and at times glare a little, the piano lacks body and depth. The digital quality becomes exacerbated as instruments and effects are added and the tune ends up sounding more sterile than musical. The bass end dominates too much and results in an odd audio spectrum. Bass notes are boomy, have a tendency to ring on and wallow about. High mid and highs sometimes sound harsh, brittle and there is a lack of air and sheen. Low mid is muddy and a tad congested. The tonality, levels and balance of the different instruments/parts are not consistent. Reverb choices seem odd at times and exacerbate the bass issues. Fade out is odd. Soundstage could have more width and there is not much sense of depth, so the tune sounds 2 dimensional.

Sorry if that all sounds very negative. As I mentioned at the beginning the mix isn't bad for a home/project studio and the majority of the issues tend to be true for most of them as well.

Would proper monitors help? Probably but you should also allow for some room treatment as well and keep in mind that studio 2 way monitors often don't reproduce the bass end particularly well either.


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Taka Perry
post Dec 18 2013, 03:18 AM
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Hi Tony,

Thank you very much for the feedback. I decided to start fresh with the mix, and things are sounding a lot better now. Thanks again.


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jstcrsn
post Dec 18 2013, 12:20 PM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ Dec 17 2013, 01:53 PM) *
Just some quick comments on the mix for Taka.


The gainstaging isn't right - and this is true of a large number, possibly the majority of project studio mixes, not just Taka's. (I've had mixes from some 'pro' mix engineers who need to redo their gainstaging.) Two of the immediate consequences of that are that there is noticeable noise in quite a few places and there is evident distortion. Ideally the tune needs to be mixed again with correct gainstaging and fader placement/levels to make more appropriate use of dynamic range, reduce noise and avoid distortion and clipping. Some of the instruments/parts sound as if they were recorded 'hot' and that then exacerbates gainstaging issues. I think you're falling in to the trap of trying to get the 2bus to the same level as a mastered CD. Mixing is not mastering and you should as a minimum keep the two stages separate and not confuse them and ideally you shouldn't master your own material.

Would proper monitors help? Probably but you should also allow for some room treatment as well and keep in mind that studio 2 way monitors often don't reproduce the bass end particularly well either.
what is gainstaging and what would you suggest over the 2 way monitor
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Darius Wave
post Dec 18 2013, 01:08 PM
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As usuall some pro support from Tony. He pointed out things that are essential - no matter what kind of tone You prefer.


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Dec 18 2013, 01:32 PM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Dec 18 2013, 12:20 PM) *
what is gainstaging and what would you suggest over the 2 way monitor


Gainstaging is how you manage the signal levels to minimise noise and distortion. Many people who have grown up only using DAWs don't seem to understand gainstaging at all, or think that it doesn't apply in digital. Consequently lots mix too hot and over rely on theirthe daws peak meters. It also doesn't help that some vts are not good at handling a hot signal and so can go in to overload very easily and potenitally witout you knowing. In addition some vsti's are designed pretty hot to start with and so any additional processing that you add can push it in to distortion very quickly.


What I'd suggest other than 2 ways - 3 way large box like ours here . That though is expensive and needs quite a large room. Most people can't do that so have to go with 2 way.

If you stay with 2 ways then you will not get much bass from a driver that is less than 7'' or 8''. So for those at 6'' or less you may well need a matched sub. 2 ways below about $1500 also tend to be ported designs but the ports of these tend to introduce issues and the 'cure' is often worse than the 'illness'. So below $1500 you may be beter off with a closed design and either accept less bass or add a matched sub.



QUOTE (Taka Perry @ Dec 18 2013, 03:18 AM) *
Hi Tony,

Thank you very much for the feedback. I decided to start fresh with the mix, and things are sounding a lot better now. Thanks again.


No probs Taka. When you do the mix focus a bit on your gainstaging. Try to aim for individual channels peaking at -18 to -12dBFS withthe loudest track at about -10. Set the initial gain at the head of each channel not downstream.


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Get your music professionally mastered by anl AES registered Mastering Engineer. Contact me for Audio Mastering Services and Advice and visit our website www.miromastering.com

Be friends on facebook with us here.

We use professional, mastering grade hardware in our mastering studo. Our hardware includes:
Cranesong Avocet II Monitor Controller, Dangerous Music Liasion Insert Hardware Router, ATC SCM Pro Monitors, Lavry Black DA11, Prism Orpheus ADC/DAC, Gyratec Gyraf XIV Parallel Passive Mastering EQ, Great River MAQ 2NV Mastering EQ, Kush Clariphonic Parallel EQ Shelf, Maselec MLA-2 Mastering Compressor, API 2500 Mastering Compressor, Eventide Eclipse Reverb/Echo.
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jstcrsn
post Dec 18 2013, 01:49 PM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ Dec 18 2013, 01:32 PM) *
Gainstaging is how you manage the signal levels to minimise noise and distortion. Many people who have grown up only using DAWs don't seem to understand gainstaging at all, or think that it doesn't apply in digital. Consequently lots mix too hot and over rely on theirthe daws peak meters. It also doesn't help that some vts are not good at handling a hot signal and so can go in to overload very easily and potenitally witout you knowing. In addition some vsti's are designed pretty hot to start with and so any additional processing that you add can push it in to distortion very quickly.


What I'd suggest other than 2 ways - 3 way large box like ours here . That though is expensive and needs quite a large room. Most people can't do that so have to go with 2 way.

If you stay with 2 ways then you will not get much bass from a driver that is less than 7'' or 8''. So for those at 6'' or less you may well need a matched sub. 2 ways below about $1500 also tend to be ported designs but the ports of these tend to introduce issues and the 'cure' is often worse than the 'illness'. So below $1500 you may be beter off with a closed design and either accept less bass or add a matched sub.





No probs Taka. When you do the mix focus a bit on your gainstaging. Try to aim for individual channels peaking at -18 to -12dBFS withthe loudest track at about -10. Set the initial gain at the head of each channel not downstream.

so do I want to record the guitar track hot without clipping but than in mixing bring it down to the above levels
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