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Azzaboi
post Jan 31 2014, 04:05 AM
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I hate all this crap, but can't help find it so stupid.

The government is surrounded by morons. This is what I would do...

1) Min Wage should just be greater than the Benefit (not working and living off the tax payers), but low even so small business can manage it. If on the Benefit, then you should undergo drug tests and be actively looking for a job on a daily basis.

2) Min Wage jobs should be part time (so people can study, etc) or temporary only (6-12 months, then kicked out for the next person to move in). During this time, you should be actively looking for a better job and just using this one as training and work experience. It's never ideal is sit and get comfortable with accepting min wage even as a kid. This also gives others min wage jobs quicker and progresses along.

3) Get a real job and quit complaining...

Job hunting is a b****h yes, but half the problem is no one can get the work experience to get anything better or they don't even bother to look, then they just get comfortable in their day by day slave labour, expecting nothing better for themselves. While others fight for the same low level jobs and the higher up remain empty - because they don't have the experience required. If your sitting in your same old job for 1-4 years and find it getting nowhere fast or don't even like it, look for another while your still working there, leave on a good foot but take a step up!

What is raising the min wage going to do? Make the tax payers spend more money on something that's already bottlenecked so they remain there more comfortable, therefore actually all you would be doing is making it worst... SLAPS FOREHEAD. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out, but yeah then again the US Shutdown was a real smart move too even thought warned about well in advance.

This post has been edited by Azzaboi: Jan 31 2014, 04:13 AM
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Todd Simpson
post Jan 31 2014, 04:17 AM
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Not trying to belittle anyone smile.gif Just espousing smile.gif

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jan 30 2014, 08:51 PM) *
I just asked for clarification, and you guys start calling belittling my character, thanks



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klasaine
post Jan 31 2014, 08:59 AM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jan 30 2014, 03:12 PM) *
This is baffling me, how did someone get a "right to a living wage"


Philosophically we have a difference of opinion ... and that's totally cool with me. I'll explain my philosophical POV.

We live in a country that exacts taxes, insists (on paper) that we be registered as a citizen/resident or are in the process of becoming one and abide by it's myriad laws or suffer penalties. IMO it's only fair to pay at least a wage that allows one to sleep and eat. I realize that that's all very 'general' ... a lot of grey ... but that's how I see it.


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jstcrsn
post Jan 31 2014, 11:48 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jan 31 2014, 04:17 AM) *
Not trying to belittle anyone smile.gif Just espousing smile.gif

you called me bitter , went off on some liberal tirade against fox news( which I only have basic cable and have never seen it, not once)can,t get it , lumping me in with them, and I might be, but to post that, lump me in with them and then go off like that demeans them( and me cause you lumped me in their) , call it whAT YOUR CONSCIOUS NEEDS TO
dont get my wrong , i am not angry or hurt, but starting to attack ones bitternes or lack there of based on the question is what the liberal media does

This post has been edited by jstcrsn: Jan 31 2014, 03:33 PM
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AK Rich
post Jan 31 2014, 12:43 PM
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The right to a living wage has it's roots in socialism and communism and is inherently flawed because it would automatically and artificially drive up the cost of goods and services in order for a business to make a profit , this especially would affect small businesses. And then after the prices of goods and services go up, you then need to increase the living wage again.
It kind of reminds me of a public service announcement that used to air years ago that went like this.
I do coke so I can work longer , so I can make more money , so I can do more coke , so I can work longer, so I can make more money, so I can do more coke, until the guy finally explodes or implodes or whatever.
Maybe not the best analogy but I think you can get the picture of a circle that just keeps spiraling upwards and is unsustainable.
Also it may make business owners less likely to hire non skilled workers which could end up hurting the people a living wage is supposed to help because there are fewer jobs. Why hire a laborer in a construction job when for a few dollars more you can hire a framer who is much more productive and you don't have to train?
Maybe there are ways of avoiding this that I don't know of, and if there are I would love to hear them.
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klasaine
post Jan 31 2014, 05:50 PM
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I can only respond anecdotally. A lot of large cities have min wages higher than their respective states.

Los Angeles (where I live), a city now approaching 10 million documented inhabitants, has a city ordinance of a minimum wage which is higher than the fed and higher than the CA min (which is higher than the fed). This is for city contracted workers (similar to the latest exec order). $10.91/hour, with health benefits, or $12.16/hour, if no health benefits (effective 7/1/13 and adjusted annually), 12 compensated days off per year for sick leave, vacation, or personal necessity, plus 10 additional uncompensated days off for family or personal issues.
NYC has a similar ordinance.
No employer that's contracting a construction job or food service gig, transportation project, or any kind of public works project, etc. hires a farmer (unless the farmer really wants to do that- ?) for that kind of job. Even entry level McDonalds jobs here pay .75 higher than the fed min wage.
*Both LA and NYC have huge rural tracts just outside the city so yes, there are lots of farmers here potentially for hire.

An employer never has to pay minimum wage. There's always undocumented workers and other 'shadow' work force participants - relatives, your kids, interns ... it all depends on the skill level you need. Illegal? Technically but I know restaurant owners who tell me that the fine for hiring undocumented workers off-sets the money they'd pay in wages and insurance.
The super right wing, pro business, laissez faire capitalist view is to maintain a high influx of illegal immigrants so that there's always an unskilled and low paid work force. I'm not denigrating that point of view. That's been a basic tenet of big biz since the industrial revolution. That's why it's so difficult to get any kind of immigration reform no matter who's in congress or the white house ... and why conservatives were so jaw droppingly shocked and awed at Reagans 1986 amnesty bill.

If the fed minimum went up a buck or two, from $7.25 to 9 or 10 dollars an hour, several states (I think 12) and many large cities wouldn't even have to do anything - as their minimum wage is already higher than the fed standard.

This is an age old debate and I doubt a bunch of guitar players are gonna figure it out. I try to stay away from rhetoric. I, along with other's may 'call' for $15.00 per hour min wage but I know full well that that'll never happen. It's the political bargaining process. Aim high and accept lower - compromise. My prediction: if there's real debate and some legislation on this, is it'll fall somewhere between $9.25 - $10.10 an hour for the fed min. and it'll happen w/in the next 2 to 4 years regardless who's in the white house or congress.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Jan 31 2014, 07:15 PM


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jstcrsn
post Feb 1 2014, 08:52 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jan 31 2014, 02:20 AM) *
CRSN, By your answer you then don't think we have a "right" to earn a living wage? I would have to say that we do have at least the right to earn a living. "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness". That last bit would probably cover earning enough to survive wouldn't it?

Todd

sorry it took so long , been busy and am a slow typer .so I knew it would take time
1st wanting to know your business experience helps clarify how I need to answer, in that regards I am glad you can pay a good wage ,and a lot of your work seems like its subcontract and is the prevailing market wage. mine how ever starts at minimum wage,
To have a kid come out of high school and some don't even know how to read a tape measure, and now I have to pay him 9 an hour when it took about a month and a half of training before he starts producing something worth considering as profit.Now the 9 dollar an hour guy is looking at me saying he gets the same for less work, and you now were this is going and you probably know about 30 percent more than an employee's salary is needed to pay taxes , insurances , etc. Thats why raising it to me causes me problems, I can't raise my bid or I don't get the job , so what am I to do ? I would much rather see states change it with regards to their needs . 9 in California is different than 9 here
Now the life liberty , pursuit of happiness
life and no one has the right to take it, liberty and no one has the right to take it, and pursuit of happiness -no one has the right to take it
this is the problem , when you empower your government to enter my house by force of a gun , take money out of my pocket , and give it to somebody else who you deem needs it, you in fringe on both my liberty and happiness , when you tell me you are superior and know how to better run things, especially the money I worked hard for, now before you go there don't start talking about me not wanting rules and government regulations because I believe that it is necessary , its just when you use them to take money to give to another person is were the problem is.
yes I know it sounds mean and angry , but to me it goes against my right of liberty. any true Libertarian feels this way

now minimum wage, yes 50 percent 25 and under , and thats sad, I will concead it has been a while since it has been raised and is probably due, but since you want facts I guess i will give them

fact the recession started in the last year of bush(even though the media was telling us we were on the brink for every year of the bush administration
fact in 2006 the senate and congress majority was democrats(seems strange we were not in a recession till two years after that)
don't say its bush's fault or it was worse than Barack' teams knew, to say either is ignorant because bush could not have signed some thing he did not receive from the democrat controlled house and senate, yes bush is at fault for these things but so are the democrats equally.
and to say the Obama didn't know how bad it is , clearly states that him and his team were incapable and unprepared for this .how do we know this. President Reagan inherited almost the exact same economy from carter( i am not going to give you a source, you will probably cry foul)but, why was there not a great recession then. Is it possible to at least do a little bit of unbiased wondering after Reagan did almost the exact opposite of Obama
http://www.forbes.com/sites/briandomitrovi...ndle-to-reagan/
and as far as them not knowing, Bush new,on congressional record his administration , before congress tried( many , many times) to slow down the lending of freddy mac and fanny mae, being blocked by democrats at every turn http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/barone...and-freddie-mac

Fact the bank bailout from bush , brought to him by the democratically controlled house and senate, don't say bush loved the bankers without saying the democrats loved them just as much http://www.nbcnews.com/id/26987291/ns/busi...l/#.Uu1AdLSGeQI

now back to minimum wage in the first 2 years of Obama, they could have passed immigration and minimum wage hikes and didn't.Remember there are no filibusters in the house and the democrats had a super majority to vote out the filibuster in the senate. Don't you want to wonder why didn't they if it was something Obama could have done ,
Back to Klasaine's post about neither one wanting to about immagration. It is atrocious and I myself don't want to send "law abiding" people back, but will be opposed to anything until are borders are locked tight.and am fearful that if they dont lock it before they never will , a new congress does not have to implement and can overturn laws not fully implemented by their predecessors.

fact Obama said he would cut the deficit in half , He has added 7 trillion and it looks like at least 1 trillion more each of his 3 remaining years
.So I tend wonder the last hike in 09 did not help and we don't have wiggle room.
In december the jobs report came out 76,000 new jobs added, now America needs 140,000 new jobs a month just to keep up with the workforce( coming out of high school or college), now how in the world do we have half the jobs created that we need to break even , but the unemployment number goes down by . 3 percent. Does this not make ant light bulbs of curiosity go off

Klasaine you say you would like 15 an hour, my first question is , do you think prices will not rise to accommodate , how much will your hamburger cost when McDonald has to double its wages, do you not understand prices will raise and we will be back in the same boat- but you want an example http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/28/pf/north_dakota_jobs/ , this is what happens when the government is not in the way 15 an hour for serving fries- this is how capitalism works , yes some make it rich- look at the true trickle down economy, not what they teach you works in a classroom , but real life. Would you rather have a guitar teacher that can play it or a guitar teacher that knows what the book says to do , but the other way( social justice) everybody loses every time it is tried.
Sure I now you environmentalist are going to go crazy, but there are enough resources in America to cut dependency on foreign oil and before you say I want to kill the planet and have dirty drinking water( if you were thinking this you are a die hard liberal)why don't we keep all this possible money here in the us while we learn to be greener, I am not against saving the planet, but it will take a while, paying a known enemy for it so we can have our cake and so called eat it to is ridiculous

Sure I know how far from this topic I went but this all relates and affects other areas
so Reagan 5.7 million new jobs after 4 years- Obama 800,000

I am not really that concerned with the minimum wage crumbs that their fighting over , but we know what works and a vibrant economy that would relagate minimum wage jobs back to a fist job, learning experience in stead of it being necessary to put food on the table sounds more attractive to me, but when will we say this 9 trillion in dept and more of the same ain't workin

Side not for you Europeans when we use the term poor in America, they still live better than the middles class in Europe http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/20...st-of-humanity/

P.S. no one minds the government taking something from some one else until they are the some one else, be careful what you empower your government to do, it might come back to haunt you

This post has been edited by jstcrsn: Feb 1 2014, 09:05 PM
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Spock
post Feb 1 2014, 09:35 PM
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It's a very tough position to side very strongly on - either way. I understand the plight of the minimum wage worker as well as the plight of the small business owner.

When we look at what happened - it all took place in the 90s. Remember back when everyone made fun of Ross Perot because of his funny accent, big ears, short-man syndrome and then claimed the government sent an asian hit-squad to his daughters wedding? Yea, that guy. Well, I voted for him. And I would again today. Remember when he talked about NAFTA and GAT and that big "sucking sound" of jobs going over seas, while Bush 1 and Widgum Clinton smirked?



It wasn't long after Clinton got elected that Levis closed up and went south of the border.

So, who is at fault? Republicans? YES!!! Democrats? YES!!!

When it all boils down to it, the ruling elite is at fault. And the ruling elite is corporatism gone rampant. As one of the "whack job right-wingers" said best, "capitalism without heart is just as evil as communism" - Glenn Beck.

And that is true.

There is no sense in blaming either of the parties - they are both to blame. It is going to take a true revolution in the U.S. to counter the current coupe taking place. China commands the dollar and any day now the world can decide to stop using it, because the world will realize that the gold which backed the dollar is no longer there - just like Germany when they wanted to audit their gold in New York and the U.S. government said they would have to give it back to them in a 7 year installment plan - then fell miserably short on their first payment.

The United States is BEYOND BROKE! And corporations hold the power in Washington. Look into Monsanto and others.

So as long as corporations are in power, the people will always be driven down to being no more important than a common gasket.

I just read an article today written by Pat Buchanan which summed up the state of affairs and how we got here, perfectly, in an article titled, "How the GOP Lost Middle America".

http://www.wnd.com/2014/01/how-the-gop-lost-middle-america/

You want change? It's coming, one way or the other - and I hope it doesn't come via the current administration, the democrats or another term of neo-cons. We have to vote all these bums out of a job and stop listening the the MSM when they poke fun at anyone running other than the standard two tickets. That is the game, they have done it every year there is a valid third party candidate - and people lap up the venom like honey and pass it around as gospel.

We must WTFU as a nations and realize we're being played.

I'm sick of Washington, and these arguments will go on and on, polarized by standardized media, while the solutions are laughed out of the primaries.

This post has been edited by Spock: Feb 2 2014, 02:21 PM
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Saoirse O'Shea
post Feb 1 2014, 10:54 PM
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As a non-American I can't speak to the specifics argued here. I am of the opinion that basic Keynesian economics however works and that appears lost by current and previous English Goverments of both Left and Right. A significant aspect of such a policy is that people are paid more and so are also able to spend more on non-essential goods and services, which in turn generates more taxes for the Government and also helps stimuate industry. I'm not the only person who believes in this - Henry Ford did as well.

For what it's worth I do have a small business and I have also always paid more than minimum wage.


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klasaine
post Feb 2 2014, 03:00 AM
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A little inflation isn't a bad thing. It's a bad thing for prices to stagnate, or worse - drop. * The 1929 crash and subsequent depression was all about falling prices. When I started to work in the 70s inflation was relatively bad. In the winter of 72/73 it was about 4.5% . During 1973 it more than doubled to 8.8%. By 1980 it was at 14%. The US was about to become a Weimar Republic. Between 1969 and 1980 min wage only rose $1.50 - from $1.60 to $3.10. Inflation is a result of many many factors, min wage in this case had nothing to do with it. There are volumes of economic tomes written on this specific period. Just Google 1970s inflation.

As I said, shoot high ($15) and accept lower ($9 to $11) min wage. 2 or 3 bucks is overdue and won't hurt anybody. Raising the min wage a couple of bucks here and there has never resulted in any statistically noticeable rise in unemployment or inflation.
Since 1955 the most min wage has risen in a year was 60 cents. The average is about 25 cents a year.

The Europeans at this forum may take issue with that Forbes article.
My wife is Italian from Italy and our son has dual residency/citizenship. All of her family still lives there and is middle class. I can guarantee you they live far better than the lower strata of our economy and 'generally' better than most of our middle class here in the states. I spend a lot of time over there and I've also worked there. They may pay more tax but they get a lot for it. I'm not sure what part of Europe the Forbes article looked at. Maybe current Greece and Albania - ? It def wasn't Germany, Netherlands, Italy, France, Sweden or Denmark. *Russia as well as Turkey are both European and Asian due to their geography. Neither are EU members and they have their own currency.

*Despite the rhetoric from both sides, US borders will never be secured. Bottom line ... it's bad for business (and this country is all about business). Immigrants, legal or not, will work cheap and long and they buy stuff (so even the illegals pay at least sales tax).

**The national debt (what we owe) is and has been huge for a long time (spiked really high under Roosevelt, Truman, Reagan and Bush I) but our deficit (how much we spend v. how much we take in) is going down ... fast. In fact it's going down at it's fastest rate since just after WWII and we even had a surplus in December. Many economists (the sane ones on both sides) posit that this is precisely because the govt. can't/doesn't do anything. As in,[i] 'no news is good news'.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Feb 2 2014, 08:40 AM


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Todd Simpson
post Feb 2 2014, 03:53 AM
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Always fun to engage in a little political banter smile.gif Thanks guys!!! I'm switching back go guitar playing before this thread gets "partisan" smile.gif


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jstcrsn
post Feb 2 2014, 10:17 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Feb 2 2014, 03:00 AM) *
*Despite the rhetoric from both sides, US borders will never be secured. Bottom line ... it's bad for business (and this country is all about business). Immigrants, legal or not, will work cheap and long and they buy stuff (so even the illegals pay at least sales tax).

**The national debt (what we owe) is and has been huge for a long time (spiked really high under Roosevelt, Truman, Reagan and Bush I) but our deficit (how much we spend v. how much we take in) is going down ... fast. In fact it's going down at it's fastest rate since just after WWII and we even had a surplus in December. Many economists (the sane ones on both sides) posit that this is precisely because the govt. can't/doesn't do anything. As in,[i] 'no news is good news'.

ever heard of the fair tax http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer
would fix many problems, of course congress and the senate would never give the power back to the people once we gave it to them- I can dream can't I

QUOTE (tonymiro @ Feb 1 2014, 10:54 PM) *
basic Keynesian economics however works and that appears lost by current and previous .

this is what is being taught in most colleges these days, my opinion differs ( who'd of thunk it) http://www.thecommentator.com/article/4683...esian_economics

it might work , but , to me human nature always kicks in and the ruling class always starts to get evil and the rich
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Spock
post Feb 2 2014, 02:26 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Feb 1 2014, 09:53 PM) *
Always fun to engage in a little political banter smile.gif Thanks guys!!! I'm switching back go guitar playing before this thread gets "partisan" smile.gif



I feel ya man - me too, the last thing I want to do is think politics - most of my love for guitar is escaping that stuff and lord knows I get an earful of it at work everyday.

In a nutshell, I'm for the fair-tax. Pulling ALL troops out of foreign lands and using our massive "defense" budget, which is really an "Offense" budget to tidy up things here at home. I think there would be more than enough money for a nice healthcare system if we stopped using tax dollars to pay off debt used to fight wars in countries we have no business being in the first place. Individual liberties, and the government staying out of our living rooms and bedrooms.

Just seems the current trend is more Orwellian everyday.

Okay - I'm done.

GO SEAHAWKS!!!

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jstcrsn
post Feb 2 2014, 05:12 PM
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QUOTE (Spock @ Feb 2 2014, 02:26 PM) *
GO SEAHAWKS!!!
okay for the hawks too just cause they have never won the dance
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klasaine
post Feb 2 2014, 05:15 PM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Feb 2 2014, 01:17 AM) *
ever heard of the fair tax http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer
would fix many problems

And create just as many more. I really don't want to pay 23% sales tax (it's actually 30% but I don't have the typing stamina demonstrate the math here - think mortgage/amortization) on a new house or car ... or utility bill, or dentist/doctor bill or investment interest ... food. And can you imagine the black market and potentially crime ridden economy that would manifest? It's a classic regressive tax. The wealthy can totally afford it, the poor can't and will get 'rebates' and the middle class will bear the brunt. I personally would stop a lot of my 'consuming' of bigger ticket items. I've already got my house. I'd never buy a new car again and I have enough guitars. I'd buy everything accept food and energy second hand (which I do a lot already). And so would many others. How would you regulate the re-sale market? Would you need an agency to do it? I wonder what the unemployment rate would be like after a dozen years of that?
Never gonna happen.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Feb 2 2014, 05:38 PM


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jstcrsn
post Feb 2 2014, 05:30 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Feb 2 2014, 05:15 PM) *
And create just as many more. I really don't want to pay 23% tax on a new house or car.
Never gonna happen.

by your response you have not researched it for yourself but have listened to the bashers that lie about it,
goods and services have 22 percent taxes imbedded along the way to retail outlets
so it would fall first by 22 percent when income tax is abolished then it would raise by 23
so you would be paying 1.7 percent more for only what you purchase new( resold items are exempt)
but you would be doing it with 100 percent of your paycheck
no IRS thats the first thing that has to happens before it is implemented
please honestly look into it and don't regurgitate the lies

but I will be more than happy to clarify an misconceptions you might have heard, if you have a question , let me know

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klasaine
post Feb 2 2014, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Feb 2 2014, 08:30 AM) *
no IRS thats the first thing that has to happens before it is implemented


As I said, never going to happen.
As far as regurgitating lies - it's a system that's never been implemented. It's all theory at this point, from either side.

But here's the thing ...
I'm sure you can tell by my posts that I'm about two small steps to the right of being a socialist. I'm being serious. I'd personally pay some more tax if we could get our public transpo, healthcare and public education somewhere close to matching the rest of the civilized world.

And yes, GO SEAHAWKS!




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jstcrsn
post Feb 2 2014, 06:15 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Feb 2 2014, 06:10 PM) *
As I said, never going to happen.
As far as regurgitating lies - it's a system that's never been implemented. It's all theory at this point, from either side.

But here's the thing ...
I'm sure you can tell by my posts that I'm about two small steps to the right of being a socialist. I'm being serious. I'd personally pay some more tax if we could get our public transpo, healthcare and public education somewhere close to matching the rest of the civilized world.

And yes, GO SEAHAWKS!

so you basically have been scheming , trying to talk civilized when all along you have no desire to look reasonably at anything but press ever forward towards the prize

now everybody see ,everything Obama wants , this guy wants , and he has just confessed to wanting socialism

any questions class

man I am still beside my self, so happy , you know how long it would take tell some one who is on the fence about Obama being a socialist.
and now you confirmed all that, man, thank you

This post has been edited by jstcrsn: Feb 2 2014, 06:55 PM
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klasaine
post Feb 2 2014, 08:36 PM
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Lol! I don't scheme and I was never uncivilized in the discussion. I'm very compromising and very much a realist. I Said I'm two small steps to the right of being a socialist - as in I'm not. I'm a SoCal, left leaning democrat - that should be pretty obvious even from just reading my guitar posts. I never mentioned or criticized anything about your political leanings. My point being with the statement in my previous post is that we will probably always philosophically disagree (on this). Fine with me. It's America, we're allowed to.
*If our prez was an actual socialist there'd be the 'public option' for health care.

I can't get behind a 'fair' or 'flat' tax because the States as well as the Cities (whom we also pay tax to) would never have any of it. You can't have just 'federal' tax in republic of separate states. No matter what tax system we implement it will always be as complex as the one we have now. Which compared to a lot of countries is actually fairy straight forward. Again - I know this because both my brother in law and father in law are accountants in Europe.

I have a rehearsal and then I'm watching the game. Enough 'policy' for today.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Feb 2 2014, 08:38 PM


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jstcrsn
post Feb 2 2014, 08:57 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Feb 2 2014, 08:36 PM) *
Lol! I don't scheme and I was never uncivilized in the discussion. I'm very compromising and very much a realist. I Said I'm two small steps to the right of being a socialist - as in I'm not. I'm a SoCal, left leaning democrat - that should be pretty obvious even from just reading my guitar posts. I never mentioned or criticized anything about your political leanings. My point being with the statement in my previous post is that we will probably always philosophically disagree (on this). Fine with me. It's America, we're allowed to.
*If our prez was an actual socialist there'd be the 'public option' for health care.

I can't get behind a 'fair' or 'flat' tax because the States as well as the Cities (whom we also pay tax to) would never have any of it. You can't have just 'federal' tax in republic of separate states. No matter what tax system we implement it will always be as complex as the one we have now. Which compared to a lot of countries is actually fairy straight forward. Again - I know this because both my brother in law and father in law are accountants in Europe.

I have a rehearsal and then I'm watching the game. Enough 'policy' for today.

enjoy the game
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