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> Should Marijuana Be Legalized?
Todd Simpson
post Feb 22 2014, 07:29 AM
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Well said! Basic supply and demand at work creates a HUGE black market and sprawling tax vacuums like the DEA. You are spot on when you say such organizations are almost "too big to fail". Govt organizations only want two things.

1.)Survive (til the next budget cycle)
2.)Grow (to get more budget next cycle).

and the DEA has grown like a "weed" as it were smile.gif and become a nearly paramilitary wing of the govt. Really should be dismantled. Time will tell if we have the wisdom to vote this in to being.
Todd


QUOTE (Palacios @ Feb 21 2014, 11:43 PM) *
I agree. In fact I'd go even further and legalize all drugs, and combat them with rehab. All illegalizing drugs does is fund terrorism, create a huge burden of our prison system, create police records on people preventing them from getting jobs that would force them to quit. The problem is that too much money is made, and burocracies allocated money; for them to be legal. Thats just my opinion though.


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AK Rich
post Feb 22 2014, 08:04 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Feb 21 2014, 06:13 PM) *
We managed to get over that but even though hard booze is more dangerous/toxic on the body than street heroin


This is only half true at best since heroin is far more TOXIC to the body than alcohol and has a higher dependency rating. Heroin ,Crack Cocaine Nicotine, Methadone and Crystal Meth all have a higher dependency than Alcohol. And the only reason alcohol is deemed more DANGEROUS is because of the societal impact.(Heroin is more dangerous to the individual) And since alcohol is legal most everywhere and heroin is not, of course it is seen as more dangerous by some. There are far more people using alcohol. If heroin was as easily accessible as alcohol and half as many people used heroin there would be no contest. Heroin would take the most dangerous title hands down. Have you ever known someone who was hooked on heroin? It is far more ugly than alcohol dependency and much harder to kick.
Oh , And yes, legalize marijuana, especially hemp production.

PS: Although I support the legalization of marijuana, I am highly against legalizing much harder drugs like the ones I have mentioned.
Think about it. Did the legalization of alcohol result in less people using and abusing it? I think we all know the answer to that is no.
If the use of all drugs becomes legal and accepted then you will most certainly have more use and abuse, creating far more harm than good.
Alcoholism is treated as a sickness, has it helped curb alcohol abuse or in any way make alcohol less attractive to young people or anyone for that matter? How would legalizing hard drugs be any different?

Again, the more it becomes accepted the more it will be used and abused.How would making hard drugs easier to get help anything?
Alcohol is one thing, but hard drugs are a different beast. And with them self control is much harder to exert because of the nature of them.
Don't we already somewhat treat drug addiction as an illness? Part of the penalties for using hard drugs most often include rehab do they not? Keeping those drugs illegal is a far better deterrent than decriminalization. And thinking that making them legal would somehow reduce the problem is just whistling through the graveyard the way I see it. It is like throwing your hands in the air and saying whatever, do what you want , we don't care anymore. It defies logic and common sense. How would treating drug addiction as an illness only, and have rehab address the problem reduce the cost to society any less than prisons combined with rehab if the number of people that become addicted greatly increases because it is accepted and legal? I would wager that even if the numbers of those addicted and sent to rehab rather than prison remain the same that it would still cost taxpayers more.

This post has been edited by AK Rich: Feb 22 2014, 05:30 PM


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Cosmin Lupu
post Feb 22 2014, 08:38 AM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Feb 21 2014, 12:29 PM) *
I thought, surely Wolverine would have sweet talked that brunette in your video wink.gif


Haha biggrin.gif Todd - she's taken, man smile.gif And from what I know she loves her boyfriend very much smile.gif


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jstcrsn
post Feb 24 2014, 12:42 AM
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QUOTE (Palacios @ Feb 22 2014, 05:43 AM) *
I agree. In fact I'd go even further and legalize all drugs, and combat them with rehab. All illegalizing drugs does is fund terrorism, create a huge burden of our prison system, create police records on people preventing them from getting jobs that would force them to quit. The problem is that too much money is made, and burocracies allocated money; for them to be legal. Thats just my opinion though.

the information saying it would be cost effective to make everything legal and just rehabilitate does not take into account an increase in the amount to be treated.
Being hooked on the hard drugs is ugly, people kill their fathers , mothers brothers and sisters for money for their next fix.
any one that thinks that legalizing everything would work out, needs to go spend sometime helping just one junky get clean.
Take it from one that was hooked one meth,you don't want to wish that on your enemy let alone your countryman in the name of liberty

and I am glad that we talked about parenting and their kids following the lead of their parents. The problem is when kids do not have an example to follow , and we all know that is a big problem here in America, they tend to look towards society for their moral compass. and monkey see monkey do. If society tells them it is all right and no one tells them otherwise , you guessed it, they do it.



This post has been edited by jstcrsn: Feb 24 2014, 12:54 AM
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Todd Simpson
post Feb 24 2014, 02:35 AM
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Some fine back and forth per usual smile.gif I stopped short saying I support legalization. I support subsidization much like is done in England. Heroin addicts are given their drugs/needles through a pharmacy which greatly reduces crime and other issues associated with the current prohibition. You can compare the numbers directly between Britain and the united states and the results black and white. Less crime, less abuse per capita, less use overall, etc. it's just a better system and I"d vote for it smile.gif But that's what votes are for right? I get that RICH and CRSN would vote the other way smile.gif But that's politics right?

Here is a link to a paper about a study showing how minimal the impacts of transferring heroin addicts to state assistance/subsidy. smile.gif

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16627300


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Palacios
post Feb 24 2014, 04:45 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Feb 23 2014, 05:35 PM) *
Some fine back and forth per usual smile.gif I stopped short saying I support legalization. I support subsidization much like is done in England. Heroin addicts are given their drugs/needles through a pharmacy which greatly reduces crime and other issues associated with the current prohibition. You can compare the numbers directly between Britain and the united states and the results black and white. Less crime, less abuse per capita, less use overall, etc. it's just a better system and I"d vote for it smile.gif But that's what votes are for right? I get that RICH and CRSN would vote the other way smile.gif But that's politics right?

Here is a link to a paper about a study showing how minimal the impacts of transferring heroin addicts to state assistance/subsidy. smile.gif

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16627300

The worst thing about drugs isn't the drugs; it's the people dealing the drugs. Drug addicts are usually pretty peaceful people as long as they have drugs. I'm not saying I'm right, but if people wan't to destroy their lives; that's their choice. By legalizing, and investing more money in to rehab to me is a better option. By getting rid of the black market, and taking away the incentive; we can give people less of a reason to kill and steal for drugs. It of course depends on where the money goes from the savings of enforcement. If that money goes to rehabilitation; it will be a success. If it just goes into government coffers; it won't be. This is one issue that the Left, and Right agree on.
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AK Rich
post Feb 24 2014, 09:20 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Feb 23 2014, 05:35 PM) *
Some fine back and forth per usual smile.gif I stopped short saying I support legalization. I support subsidization much like is done in England. Heroin addicts are given their drugs/needles through a pharmacy which greatly reduces crime and other issues associated with the current prohibition. You can compare the numbers directly between Britain and the united states and the results black and white. Less crime, less abuse per capita, less use overall, etc. it's just a better system and I"d vote for it smile.gif But that's what votes are for right? I get that RICH and CRSN would vote the other way smile.gif But that's politics right?

Here is a link to a paper about a study showing how minimal the impacts of transferring heroin addicts to state assistance/subsidy. smile.gif

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16627300


A bit overstated don't you think? Here are some crime comparisons. It doesn't look black and white to me. It seems to go back and forth depending on the types of crime.Take note of the drug offenses stats. I looked at a couple other comparisons and while the results vary they certainly were not black and white.

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/United...ed-States/Crime

And as far as the study was concerned , the bottom line says this. "Prospective studies are needed to determine the long-term consequences of receiving a diamorphine prescription." It also states this. " Patients had been receiving a prescription for diamorphine for a median length of six years. The majority were unemployed white males, with a median age of 44 years. Illicit drug use and criminal activity, while low, had not been eliminated totally."
Now if these people were in jail what would the illicit drug use and crimes be? Zero? And at a lower cost to society?

Obviously the jury is still out on the effectiveness of this approach, and I for one do not want my tax dollars going to enable these kinds of drug users, to me that is the same as stealing to get the fix , only the gov is doing the stealing for them.

Here is another quote from that study." The experience from the United Kingdom has been one of long-term prescribing with the aim of retaining patients in treatment and reducing the harms caused by illicit drug use."
The aim of retaining the patients in treatment? Notice that it does not say anything about getting the patients off of the drugs? No rehab whatsoever? How does this help anyone, the users or the ones that get stuck with the bill? And how can prescribing the drug reduce the harm of said drug?
And even if it was halfway successful there, it doesn't necessarily mean it could be successful here. As we are two quite different countries.

This post has been edited by AK Rich: Feb 24 2014, 09:28 AM


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jstcrsn
post Feb 24 2014, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Feb 24 2014, 02:35 AM) *
Here is a link to a paper about a study showing how minimal the impacts of transferring heroin addicts to state assistance/subsidy. smile.gif

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16627300
I don't know if you took the time to look at the comparisons that rich found , but drugs offenses in england(that think they are tolerant) were 300 percent more based per capita

come on man, you have to be a little skeptical of that so called study, there is no backround info , no stating of criteria used, so many things need to happen for a lagitiment study and without that ,seems like no more than an opinion piece and at the end of it , the same report said it does not have long term stats on whether it works or not , sort of a joke that it was written on if you ask me.

and it is still illegal so they don't know the effect of decriminalizing it

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Todd Simpson
post Feb 24 2014, 10:09 PM
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Well said smile.gif Spot on. You happen to be 100% correct IMHO smile.gif

QUOTE (Palacios @ Feb 23 2014, 10:45 PM) *
The worst thing about drugs isn't the drugs; it's the people dealing the drugs. Drug addicts are usually pretty peaceful people as long as they have drugs. I'm not saying I'm right, but if people wan't to destroy their lives; that's their choice. By legalizing, and investing more money in to rehab to me is a better option. By getting rid of the black market, and taking away the incentive; we can give people less of a reason to kill and steal for drugs. It of course depends on where the money goes from the savings of enforcement. If that money goes to rehabilitation; it will be a success. If it just goes into government coffers; it won't be. This is one issue that the Left, and Right agree on.



I'd say the results of the U.K. system compared with our system are ENTIRELY black and white smile.gif I should have been more clear.

Compared to our crime rates/imprisonment rates/etc. The U.K. system wins hands down. It's not even a close call. You can never eliminate crime entirely, no matter what you do. But their system has gutted the black market and gotten drug related street crime to a fraction of ours. Seems pretty cut and dried smile.gif

QUOTE (AK Rich @ Feb 24 2014, 03:20 AM) *
A bit overstated don't you think? Here are some crime comparisons. It doesn't look black and white to me. It seems to go back and forth depending on the types of crime.Take note of the drug offenses stats. I looked at a couple other comparisons and while the results vary they certainly were not black and white.

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/United...ed-States/Crime

And as far as the study was concerned , the bottom line says this. "Prospective studies are needed to determine the long-term consequences of receiving a diamorphine prescription." It also states this. " Patients had been receiving a prescription for ..nyone, the users or the ones that get stuck with the bill? And how can prescribing the drug reduce the harm of said drug?
And even if it was halfway successful there, it doesn't necessarily mean it could be successful here. As we are two quite different countries.


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Feb 24 2014, 10:09 PM


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NPB1979
post Feb 24 2014, 10:23 PM
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Government could legalize it, then TAX the HELL out of it, just like tobacco.

The problem is, as I've heard from Law enforcement, is that driving while high can lead to accidents. And it's not something you can measure like alcohol. So it will be hard for someone to get arrested in a traffic violation for being too high to drive safely. I can see that being an issue if legalized.


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jstcrsn
post Feb 24 2014, 11:55 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Feb 24 2014, 10:09 PM) *
I'd say the results of the U.K. system compared with our system are ENTIRELY black and white smile.gif I should have been more clear.

Compared to our crime rates/imprisonment rates/etc. The U.K. system wins hands down. It's not even a close call. You can never eliminate crime entirely, no matter what you do. But their system has gutted the black market and gotten drug related street crime to a fraction of ours. Seems pretty cut and dried smile.gif

so they didn't make it illegal they just vigorously enforced the laws they had
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Spock
post Feb 25 2014, 12:48 AM
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I'm with Todd on this. I'm from the Bible Belt, South Carolina, and there is legislation in the works to legalize medical canibus oil, and it' not a real long shot from there for total legalization. I think it will eventually become look like the Berlin Wall crumbling here in the states.

I use to love weed, then sometime in my 20s, it turned on me - made me a lazy, hungry bag of psychotic paranoia. If there was NOTHING is the world to stress over, I would sit there and listen to my heart beat, waiting on it to stop.

About 4 years ago, alcohol and caffeine did the same thing to me - now, I don't drink either.

But it is a question of liberty, and not allowing the government to legislate personal "morality" issues.

I'll be blunt, I wish I could smoke weed and find it relaxing and creative, I miss that, and it took me years of constant misery to finally put it down and break the habit.

But I would much rather watch the drug cartels not get their cut, including the CIA aspect, and the private prison industry which fills their pockets with tax-payer money to fund each user incarcerated for it.

I just read today that Colorado was releasing all prisoners doing time for marijuana and all charges stricken from their record - I think that is a great move! Imagine all the poor schmucks serving a life sentence for the "3 Strikes Your Out" policy over weed, for pete sake.

Here's a link to that: http://soundofheart.org/galacticfreepress/...e-their-records

Anyway, with liberty comes personal responsibility. And people will have to realize that you don't just have a social joint and it not alter your perception, like 1 or 2 drinks. When you smoke wee you get boned dumb - so anyone stoned should not drive either.

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Palacios
post Feb 25 2014, 01:11 AM
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QUOTE (Spock @ Feb 24 2014, 03:48 PM) *
I'm with Todd on this. I'm from the Bible Belt, South Carolina, and there is legislation in the works to legalize medical canibus oil, and it' not a real long shot from there for total legalization. I think it will eventually become look like the Berlin Wall crumbling here in the states.

I use to love weed, then sometime in my 20s, it turned on me - made me a lazy, hungry bag of psychotic paranoia. If there was NOTHING is the world to stress over, I would sit there and listen to my heart beat, waiting on it to stop.

About 4 years ago, alcohol and caffeine did the same thing to me - now, I don't drink either.

But it is a question of liberty, and not allowing the government to legislate personal "morality" issues.

I'll be blunt, I wish I could smoke weed and find it relaxing and creative, I miss that, and it took me years of constant misery to finally put it down and break the habit.

But I would much rather watch the drug cartels not get their cut, including the CIA aspect, and the private prison industry which fills their pockets with tax-payer money to fund each user incarcerated for it.

I just read today that Colorado was releasing all prisoners doing time for marijuana and all charges stricken from their record - I think that is a great move! Imagine all the poor schmucks serving a life sentence for the "3 Strikes Your Out" policy over weed, for pete sake.

Here's a link to that: http://soundofheart.org/galacticfreepress/...e-their-records

Anyway, with liberty comes personal responsibility. And people will have to realize that you don't just have a social joint and it not alter your perception, like 1 or 2 drinks. When you smoke wee you get boned dumb - so anyone stoned should not drive either.

I agree. I don't think you should drive if your tired, drunk, blind, stoned, impaired in any way. Thats because that puts peoples lives in danger, and if you put others lives in danger; that needs to be against the law. If someone is at their home drunk or high, and not messing with anybody; it's really non of my business. Many promising young people have been turned into hardened criminals because the worst thing about pot seems to be; it's illegal. By taking the crime out of drugs we can.
-Significantly reduce the number of inmates in our prisons; instead of closing schools and laying off teachers; while funding the hell out of the prisons.
-Put the terrorists who threaten to destabilize, and in many cases do destablize other countries out of business.
-Take back the gang infested neighborhoods fueled by drug money.
-Reduce the huge burden on our legal system mostly spent on drug cases.
-Use a fraction of the saving to better fund, and equip drug treatment.
The reason it isn't being legalized nationwide is due to the fact that police are allowed to seize someones property if they are convicted of distribution of drugs. This is a huge source of funding for law enforcement.
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AK Rich
post Feb 25 2014, 04:53 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Feb 24 2014, 01:09 PM) *
I'd say the results of the U.K. system compared with our system are ENTIRELY black and white smile.gif I should have been more clear.

Compared to our crime rates/imprisonment rates/etc. The U.K. system wins hands down. It's not even a close call. You can never eliminate crime entirely, no matter what you do. But their system has gutted the black market and gotten drug related street crime to a fraction of ours. Seems pretty cut and dried smile.gif


Unfortunately the statistics do not support that opinion to the extent you claim. More overstatement. The black market in the UK hardly looks "gutted" to me.

Black Market in the UK http://www.havocscope.com/tag/united-kingdom/

And I have already shown crime stats that dispute your "Black and White" comparison. The way you try to make it sound just doesn't look to be accurate.

With all due respect, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. No worries smile.gif


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AK Rich
post Feb 25 2014, 05:24 AM
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Just to be clear on the topic in case some may have missed it. I do support the legalization of marijuana at the federal level and especially hemp production which has many benefits.

http://www.hemp-guide.com/benefits-of-hemp.html

http://hempbenefits.org/

However, I do not support the legalization or subsidization of drugs such as heroin , cocaine ,and crystal meth among others , which has been suggested here by some as the topic has evolved.


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dcz702
post Feb 25 2014, 08:22 AM
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i think pot should be legalized. but it should also be stricly regulated like alcohol. Many people will argue that its a gateway drug, its highly addictive, and will destroy our youth. i do agree with that to some extent, young people who get into partying and experimenting most of the time try several diffent drugs out of curiousity or pressure or both. and i dont necessarily beleive that weed is the reason why youth may try other drugs, but i can see how its opens there curiousity more. i do think that it should be kept out of there reach untill they are capable of making there own wise decisions, although that seems to be decling no matter the age of people in our society recently biggrin.gif. i dont do drugs never have i rarley drink alcohol and im a pretty responible guy with a loving family, and i smoke from time to time, and that goes for alot of my friends to. its important to treat it as a recration and not over do it, same with alchohol eating crap and several other things people enjoy that may not be the best for your health. i also think that alot of good people are charged with crimes over laws on marijauna are wrongfully slapped with legal reprucssions that they just dont deserve, yea they did something illegal and if they were using there heads at the time, realized what the repruccusions are, but a like minded person as myself doesnt see the big deal of growing plants, alot of people do it as a hooby and are very skilled in botiny and enjoy watching the fruits of there labor, alot of these poeple are not doing it to be drug dealers, but some are. If any legal drug should be illegal its alcohol more people are killed from drunk drivers, more people run there lives into the ground from alcoholism, and more violence occurs from people being out of there minds hammered than marijauna, most definatley.
heres a little humor
[/youtube]

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Cosmin Lupu
post Feb 25 2014, 10:18 AM
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QUOTE (dcz702 @ Feb 25 2014, 07:22 AM) *
i think pot should be legalized. but it should also be stricly regulated like alcohol. Many people will argue that its a gateway drug, its highly addictive, and will destroy our youth. i do agree with that to some extent, young people who get into partying and experimenting most of the time try several diffent drugs out of curiousity or pressure or both. and i dont necessarily beleive that weed is the reason why youth may try other drugs, but i can see how its opens there curiousity more. i do think that it should be kept out of there reach untill they are capable of making there own wise decisions, although that seems to be decling no matter the age of people in our society recently biggrin.gif. i dont do drugs never have i rarley drink alcohol and im a pretty responible guy with a loving family, and i smoke from time to time, and that goes for alot of my friends to. its important to treat it as a recration and not over do it, same with alchohol eating crap and several other things people enjoy that may not be the best for your health. i also think that alot of good people are charged with crimes over laws on marijauna are wrongfully slapped with legal reprucssions that they just dont deserve, yea they did something illegal and if they were using there heads at the time, realized what the repruccusions are, but a like minded person as myself doesnt see the big deal of growing plants, alot of people do it as a hooby and are very skilled in botiny and enjoy watching the fruits of there labor, alot of these poeple are not doing it to be drug dealers, but some are. If any legal drug should be illegal its alcohol more people are killed from drunk drivers, more people run there lives into the ground from alcoholism, and more violence occurs from people being out of there minds hammered than marijauna, most definatley.
heres a little humor
[/youtube]


I think that in his case - growing up had some major contribution smile.gif Or it could be a simple marketing stunt, to relaunch his career... who knows?


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dcz702
post Feb 25 2014, 10:47 AM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Feb 25 2014, 09:18 AM) *
I think that in his case - growing up had some major contribution smile.gif Or it could be a simple marketing stunt, to relaunch his career... who knows?

Yes cosmin I agree it's been really cool watching snoop grow and become who he is today. I'm not much of a hip hop rap kinda guy but I like a lot of his music. I recently watch a documentary of his trip to Jamaica where he gets influence from the Jamaican culture and chills with bunny I enjoyed the documentary a lot, but later read that bunny wailer critized snoop and was concerned he used the Rastafarian culture for personal gain.
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jstcrsn
post Feb 25 2014, 12:10 PM
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what drives me crazy is that so many of you Americans bash America, your are on the side of the liberal press and it seems that you never have anything good to say about this great country( iknow not all), but topic after topic, you keep bashing,if you don't like ,move
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Palacios
post Feb 25 2014, 08:22 PM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Feb 25 2014, 03:10 AM) *
what drives me crazy is that so many of you Americans bash America, your are on the side of the liberal press and it seems that you never have anything good to say about this great country( iknow not all), but topic after topic, you keep bashing,if you don't like ,move

Ha Ha Ha. Who is bashing America? I'm a Liberal; so of course I support the facts, or as you might say, "Liberal Press". The extreme right bashes our country more than anyone. They should move to a place more in line with their thinking like Putin's Russia. They seem in love with him anyway. There are plenty of good things about our country, but since I was born here, vote, and pay a lot of taxes; I'm entitled to an opinion. Your ok jstcrsn; I know you have an opinion just like mine. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
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