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> Cael's Composition Workouts, for Gab's Army
Caelumamittendum
post Oct 21 2014, 03:27 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Oct 21 2014, 03:48 AM) *
Hi Cael! Great to see you again here! smile.gif

I've read your "excuses" message, checked that amazing clean intro, the awesome guitar pro song, and this 3 killer riffs and I can only say you are SO talented man. The fact that you are very strict with yourself is helping to create top level stuff and that's a great thing. You told me that the problem is being continuing this ideas, and that's when the strict and auto-critic is giving a negative thing.

When you say, I can't get something that makes me feel happy, by now I would say, you should feel happy if you can finish a song. That's the main goal. "Finishing" a song is not a real thing, there is always time to improve it, improve it and improve it. But we need to trust in ourselves and let the thing happen. A summary of bad ideas can be a road to get the right idea. If we block, we stay quiet, the song freezes, and frustrations appears...

From my personal experience, and my experience with students, I think that the unfinished songs phenomenon is very related to the lack of structure direction. If you imagine the overall structure of a song in your head, you will be able to visualize which parts are lacking and the whole thing starts to take shape.

This is the main reason why, the first task that I use to give on this workouts is to choose 5 favorite songs and analyze structure, arrangements and theory behind it. Song analysis is the way to go to improve our composition skills.

What do you think?


I'm glad you thought nice things of the stuff I've posted for you. I still really have no idea how to go on from any of these things. I can't imagine it in my head like I used to be able to do. I like the clean intro, but I don't know where to go from there. That's my main problem. It doesn't come natural to me anymore. Or maybe I'm trying too much to force it... rolleyes.gif


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 21 2014, 05:02 PM
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Let's use a song that you like as our structure template for developing one of those ideas, what do you say?


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Caelumamittendum
post Oct 21 2014, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Oct 21 2014, 06:02 PM) *
Let's use a song that you like as our structure template for developing one of those ideas, what do you say?


Sounds like a good idea. The songs that spring to mind though are songs like Erotomania and Dance of Eternity by Dream Theater. Or Overture 1928. Somewhat very complex songs.

This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Oct 21 2014, 05:53 PM


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 22 2014, 04:41 PM
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Great ones! Let's analize the 3 of them, starting with the structure. It's tricky because in some of them, you won't identify verses and chorus, but you can talk about parts (A, B, C), bridges, solo sections, etc.

At first just write down the structures.


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Caelumamittendum
post Oct 23 2014, 02:14 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Oct 22 2014, 05:41 PM) *
Great ones! Let's analize the 3 of them, starting with the structure. It's tricky because in some of them, you won't identify verses and chorus, but you can talk about parts (A, B, C), bridges, solo sections, etc.

At first just write down the structures.


Well, as for Overture 1928, I had a look at it, and there's not that much repitition in it as such:

It starts of with an intro (Part A: pre-intro) that is similar to something from Metropolis Pt1, then goes into it's own intro (part cool.gif, which I think is in D lydian. Now it moves on to part C, which works with larger open chords which are being arpeggiated. It then moves on to part D, which is a 3/4 typical Dream Theater style rock/metal riff, ending in a small reprise of the pre-intro/Metropolis Pt. 1 for 1 bar.

We then have a synth solo on top of the Part B. Then we have a guitar solo on a completely new backing in Bm. This guitar solo continues thereafter on a piano part and finally ends in part C again.

Then we have a key change to C#m, and continue with another guitar solo. After that we have sort of an interlude (part E), which then works to introduce a riff that will be used in the song Dance of Eternity. After that we have another synth solo and finally an outro.

Here's Erotomania in a bit different manner:

Intro that builds the foundation for when the other instruments kick in.
Part A
Part B
Part A
Part B
Part C-1.0
Part D
Part C-1.1
Prelude to solo
Guitar solo on top of Part A simplified
Part E
Part F (Similar 2 E, but expanded a bit)
Part G (Build up to acoustic part)
Part H (Acoustic part)
Part I (Build up to solo)
Guitar solo
Part J
Part K
Tempo change and Part L
Part C-1.2
Part M
Part N (classic part and build up to solo)
VERY FAST guitar solo in quintuplets!
Part O
Part A
Part B
Outro

Wow... so many parts! laugh.gif

Dance of Eternity is a bit much to go through right now, so I'll just stick with those two for now and maybe do Dance of Eternity later. I bet there are as many parts as in Erotomania.



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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 23 2014, 09:45 PM
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Hi Cael! Good job! This is a very useful analysis. I followed both songs with your structure and it helped me to understand clearly the whole thing. I consider Erotomania even richer to analyse because it's a full instrumental song. The parts could be grouped in even bigger blocks that will make it easier to use as template:

First section:
Part A
Part B
Part A
Part B
Part C-1.0
Part D
Part C-1.1
Prelude to solo
Guitar solo on top of Part A simplified

Second section:
Part E
Part F (Similar 2 E, but expanded a bit)
Part G (Build up to acoustic part)
Part H (Acoustic part)

Third section
Part I (Build up to solo)
Guitar solo
Part J
Part K
Tempo change and Part L
Part C-1.2
Part M
Part N (classic part and build up to solo)
VERY FAST guitar solo in quintuplets!
Part O

Four section:
Part A
Part B
Outro


I think that it would be a good idea to use Erotomania as a template for your next song. If you agree, let's start building the first section. Do you think that you already have ideas that could fit as parts A, B and C ?


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Caelumamittendum
post Oct 23 2014, 10:08 PM
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It's a good idea, I just don't have anything that I consider a good intro for such a thing. The best intro I can think of is the arpeggiated clean one. But I wouldn't say it works for this maybe. I'm not sure.

I'm going to be away from tomorrow till Sunday though, but I'll give it a good think meanwhile!


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 23 2014, 10:09 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Oct 23 2014, 06:08 PM) *
It's a good idea, I just don't have anything that I consider a good intro for such a thing. The best intro I can think of is the arpeggiated clean one. But I wouldn't say it works for this maybe. I'm not sure.

I'm going to be away from tomorrow till Sunday though, but I'll give it a good think meanwhile!


Let's save it maybe for a clean section in the middle... wink.gif


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Caelumamittendum
post Oct 26 2014, 02:53 PM
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Hey Gabriel.

I am back from my weekend away. It was quite the disappointment unfortunately. I even ended up going home earlier than planned.

Anyway, I will try and come up with something useful as soon as possible. Or just anything that would work.


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 27 2014, 03:57 AM
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Hi Cael, welcome back! I hope that you could rest this days off. I'll wait for your news. smile.gif


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Caelumamittendum
post Oct 30 2014, 01:19 AM
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This is not for an intro or anything as such, but I was just playing around with a riff I came up with which might be useful somewhere. It's sort of the style I like, though it's kinda simple:



Just wanted to share it with you. I posted it in a group that's called "Extended ranged guitar nerds" on Facebook and got 2 likes pretty quickly, and I'm really happy about someone liking it!

EDIT: 5 likes and some very nice comments! I'm feeling on top of the world and SO motivated!

This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Oct 30 2014, 01:38 AM


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Caelumamittendum
post Oct 30 2014, 12:27 PM
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Also, here is another idea in 7/4 with a 8/4 thrown in there as well. Wanted to share it with you smile.gif



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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 30 2014, 11:47 PM
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Hi Cael! Good job with these ideas! Congrats on the good feedback and likes at that group. You really deserve it.

These ideas are top level man, I can say that both are related so you could use them for the same song and I can say that they can be used for the structure that we wanted to use (Erotomania's). I was thinking that maybe the second video could be part A or B for this song, and the first one could be maybe C?

What do you think? It's good to start defining which ideas you have and which ones you are lacking to work on them...


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Caelumamittendum
post Oct 31 2014, 12:43 AM
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It's amazing what a few compliments from strangers can do! I posted the second idea I had and got great response as well on that as well as a few ideas on how I could improve it.

Worked a bit on something for the past 30 minutes or so, maybe this will work as an intro. I just don't know where to go from here again laugh.gif But it's the most intro ish I have. Bass needs some work, I only just put it in there instead of having no bass at all.

Attached File  Intro_idea.mp3 ( 830.79K ) Number of downloads: 78


This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Oct 31 2014, 01:07 AM


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Nov 1 2014, 02:32 AM
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Great to know this mate! This also means that you don't trust in my words. ohmy.gif I said lots of times that your ideas are so good and that if you can keep the energy to finish them you will be creating a very well received project. smile.gif

I like the new introduction. It is naturally a good intro for a song. I feel that it could continue with a more aggressive riff, with drums at double tempo. And then get back to the most powerful part of the intro with a melody added. I imagine something like this:

Intro (Clean + Metal slow groove)
Intro II (more agressive idea - double drum rhythm)
Verse I (intro metal slow groove + synth or guitar melody)
Bridge (maybe still not created? or any of the previous video ideas?)


Can you see something like this?



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Caelumamittendum
post Nov 1 2014, 03:08 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Nov 1 2014, 03:32 AM) *
Great to know this mate! This also means that you don't trust in my words. ohmy.gif I said lots of times that your ideas are so good and that if you can keep the energy to finish them you will be creating a very well received project. smile.gif

I like the new introduction. It is naturally a good intro for a song. I feel that it could continue with a more aggressive riff, with drums at double tempo. And then get back to the most powerful part of the intro with a melody added. I imagine something like this:

Intro (Clean + Metal slow groove)
Intro II (more agressive idea - double drum rhythm)
Verse I (intro metal slow groove + synth or guitar melody)
Bridge (maybe still not created? or any of the previous video ideas?)


Can you see something like this?


I trust your words, man, it's just always nice to hear from complete strangers smile.gif

I agree with the direction you're proposing, it's what I have had in mind, and I'm trying to come up with a good agressive riff smile.gif


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Nov 1 2014, 03:25 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Nov 1 2014, 11:08 AM) *
I trust your words, man, it's just always nice to hear from complete strangers smile.gif

I agree with the direction you're proposing, it's what I have had in mind, and I'm trying to come up with a good agressive riff smile.gif



Great! I'll be waiting for the new riff. Please record different ideas, no matter if you don't feel it's the right one. Don't get stuck, create. Remember that an idea can bring another one better then, it's like a chain.


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Caelumamittendum
post Nov 2 2014, 01:52 PM
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I've stitched together a bit more, though I'm not sure how happy I am with it, but it's something at least!


EDIT: Here's a Soundcloud link instead: https://soundcloud.com/benjamin-storm-linnebjerg/intro-next-part-2

This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Nov 2 2014, 03:13 PM
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Attached File  Intro___next_part__2_.mp3 ( 2.15MB ) Number of downloads: 65
 


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Nov 2 2014, 09:36 PM
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Hi Cael! Great to see this one evolving. I love the sections from the beginning to 00:38, and also the part from 1:10 to the end. The middle section has good ideas but it's a bit long or repetitive. The faster solution would be to make it shorter (around 20 seconds), and the trickier solution would be to work on it a bit ore to add some rhythm variations with drums or guitar riffs. However, this "improvement" can wait by now and try to continue with the song.

Any ideas to continue this one?



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Caelumamittendum
post Nov 3 2014, 01:21 AM
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I came up with another intro!

https://soundcloud.com/benjamin-storm-linnebjerg/intro-2


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