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RichardK
post Apr 10 2014, 11:48 AM
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I just saw the awesome shreddy cat fight video, and it got me thinking. Do cats in general dislike shredding, or is this cat just an aggressive little monster that will bite you no matter what you play? It also got me thinking that shredding is actually getting really old.

I realize this isn’t the most popular statement ever on a guitar forum, and that now might be a good time to pack my things and hide in an undisclosed, safe location. But, at the risk of being hunted down by an angry mob, armed with pitchforks, torches and v-shaped guitars, I’ll say it again: shredding sucks.

Sure, it’s pretty awesome to be able shred those scales at warp speed, cramming fifteen notes into a millisecond. But there’s a point I’d like to make. There is the tendency to overdo it. It’s totally understandable that you’re very proud that you can pull it off after years of practice. And, in your enthusiasm, you want to incorporate it as much as you can in your playing. If the singer could just shut the hell up for a second, so you can do your thing and melt some faces off in the audience with your lightning speed virtuosity.

And that’s just it. The fun of playing music is that you do it together. All the instruments are equally important in creating a cool song, the solo is just part of it. There’s this emphasis on the guitar as a solo instrument and that you need at least two insane solos in any rock song. Imagine the drummer doing that, or the bass player. Hell, imagine Will Ferrel laying down that cowbell in poly-rhythmic blast beats any chance he gets. Might be fun for one song, provided it’s just the one song and it doesn’t last more than a minute.

Poly-rhythmic cowbell blast beats, like shredding, are an added feature to a song. They make a cool song even cooler. Overuse it, and it loses its power. It’s just like any hilarious joke or catch phrase: it doesn’t get funnier if you use it in every other sentence. In fact, healthy gut laughs will soon turn into polite ‘hahas’ and then awkward attempts at smiling. You won’t get invited to as many afterparties as you’d like and people will think that there’s something seriously wrong with you.

So, to use that analogy of the joke, shredding has been a running gag for almost thirty years. Isn't it time we came up with something new? Unless you have a obsessive compulsive disorder and the alternative to shredding is lying on stage in fetal position of course. It would make for a sad, sad show and you can just keep on shredding away! But for the rest of us, I think we can come up with awesome new guitar tricks we can exploit for the next thirty years. What do you guys think? Flame war in 3... 2... 1...
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Mertay
post Apr 10 2014, 12:14 PM
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I always believed that shred should be argued as a musical concept (solo) rather than a guitarist vision. We can simplify it as a musical tool to create form as some sort of refreshment.

So if we look at the solo concept it can also be drum, rap, bass, turntable...most of these are as old or even older than shred smile.gif thats the reason why I believe considering shred is old is the same as solo in any music style.

There is an evolution to it as well but its a slow process, not very bad as pop still uses %90 of what Beatles did smile.gif this is simply the nature of popular music.

As a guitarist its good to feel that way, creativity starts kicking in an then there becomes a chance to become famous biggrin.gif


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Cosmin Lupu
post Apr 10 2014, 01:31 PM
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My 2 cents... ANYTHING which is used in abuse gets to suck smile.gif The thing is, shredding is a popular thing among guitarists and it is THE thing which is the most abused in playing - that's why the scene has become oversaturated with shredders. Anyone patient enough to practice scales and arpeggios all day long, will be able to shred in a relatively short period of time, but just a VERY small number of folks will be able to become musicians. Shredding should be one of the arrows in your quiver, not the game you hunt.


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Headbanger
post Apr 10 2014, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Apr 10 2014, 01:31 PM) *
My 2 cents... ANYTHING which is used in abuse gets to suck smile.gif The thing is, shredding is a popular thing among guitarists and it is THE thing which is the most abused in playing - that's why the scene has become oversaturated with shredders. Anyone patient enough to practice scales and arpeggios all day long, will be able to shred in a relatively short period of time, but just a VERY small number of folks will be able to become musicians. Shredding should be one of the arrows in your quiver, not the game you hunt.


Here here, well said !!!! smile.gif


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Monica Gheorghev...
post Apr 10 2014, 02:37 PM
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I'm not a fan of shredding but I respect people which have this ability. I always saw this as a sport not music. So, I can appreciate this as a performance thing but in a separate category.

I am disappointed when I see a lot guys who has as purpose to play more notes and much fast than X or much fast than Y and they don’t care to make music and to left a footprint over years.
Music must be compose for non-musicians and they hate guitar shredding. Everyone knows this thing. These are the persons who come at your concert, they can bring you up and they can put you down. When you're "fighting" with a guy in BPM on the internet, certainly he will never buy your album and don't bring you any benefit.
Write the music, feel the music, find yourself and never forget that less is more biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Monica Gheorghevici: Apr 10 2014, 02:39 PM
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Gabriel Leopardi
post Apr 10 2014, 06:19 PM
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This is a very good thread. Friends and people in general usually said to me, why don't you add more fast solos at your band's songs? and I always wondered why? The answer was that as I can play fast, I had to add fast solos in my songs! I've never seen music like that. I like shredding, I find entertained to play guitar fast, it needs a lot of concentration and sometimes you get cool sounds but I find boring to listen to a guitarist shredding all the time. I don't consider it music, it's (as Mónica said) gym. It's really good to be able to play fast, as well as is good to know how to play all chords, all drops and inversions, all scales, modes, arpeggios, etc. It's good to have all that vocabulary available but when you are creating music, you have to that, create music, not show how much you know and how fast you play... or maybe you can, but nobody will enjoy listening to it... that's my opinion, but well, if you don't care it, go for it. laugh.gif


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Drag0nz&meTaL
post Apr 10 2014, 06:29 PM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Apr 10 2014, 12:31 PM) *
My 2 cents... ANYTHING which is used in abuse gets to suck smile.gif The thing is, shredding is a popular thing among guitarists and it is THE thing which is the most abused in playing - that's why the scene has become oversaturated with shredders. Anyone patient enough to practice scales and arpeggios all day long, will be able to shred in a relatively short period of time, but just a VERY small number of folks will be able to become musicians. Shredding should be one of the arrows in your quiver, not the game you hunt.


the arrow in a quiver way of looking at it just kind of opened my mind a little bit. I love watching people shred and in my opinion i wouldnt mind if people did it through a whole album i.e. Jeff Loomis because that is what i love. but the way you just put it just sent my brain into a cool little way of thinking. YES the song comes FIRST and just because you can shred doesnt mean it has to take control of the song. thanks for that cool.gif


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P.S. just because we have the name and looks, you should start an Xmen backing track for a nerd out collab!
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Marek Rojewski
post Apr 10 2014, 07:29 PM
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Music can be great/awful with/without shredding. I am not a shred fanatic, but I can imagine many many songs that wouldn't be that great without the "solo shred explosion bit". There can be "beautiful" very fast solo. And also... I don't think every instrument in a band is of same importance... Of course there is little point in arguing if guitar is more important then the vocals or drums, but if we form a band where the "most interesting musically" member is a bass player, then he will be the one in the spotlight and he will show off his great play, and people will come to see him on the stage --> no point in trying to force equality in the name of equality alone.


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Todd Simpson
post Apr 10 2014, 11:40 PM
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It's probably more precise to say "SOME SHREDDERS SUCK" smile.gif I'd saying that when done well "SHREDDING RAWKS!""

When done in a musical way, few things get my blood going like a well shredded solo. Sure, I love the slow stuff too, the point for me is that it should work musically. Yes, SUCKY SHREDDERS have little sense of musicality and sometimes no sense of timing or key, but the same can be said for sucky slow players as well smile.gif

So in the end it comes down to player and listener. Some folks don't like shreddy stuff even when done brilliantly, just like some folks find really slow only solos dull and boring.

In the end, "To Each His Own" smile.gif If you don't like shreddy playing, just avoid it smile.gif Personally I've always felt that

"YOUR ABILITY TO EXPRESS YOURSELF MUSICALLY SHOULDN'T BE LIMITED BY YOUR TECHNIQUE"


That is to say, if a part of a song is begging for a shreddy bit, and you don't have the chops to pull it off, .................




QUOTE (RichardK @ Apr 10 2014, 06:48 AM) *
I just saw the awesome shreddy cat fight video, and it got me thinking. Do cats in general dislike shredding, or is this cat just an aggressive little monster that will bite you no matter what you play? It also got me thinking that shredding is actually getting really old.

I realize this isn’t the most popular statement ever on a guitar forum, and that now might be a good time to pack my things and hide in an undisclosed, safe location. But, at the risk of being hunted down by an angry mob, armed with pitchforks, torches and v-shaped guitars, I’ll say it again: shredding sucks.

Sure, it’s pretty awesome to be able shred those scales at warp speed, cramming fifteen notes into a millisecond. But there’s a point I’d like to make. There is the tendency to overdo it. It’s totally understandable that you’re very proud that you can pull it off after years of practice. And, in your enthusiasm, you want to incorporate it as much as you can in your playing. If the singer could just shut the hell up for a second, so you can do your thing and melt some faces off in the audience with your lightning speed virtuosity.

And that’s just it. The fun of playing music is that you do it together. All the instruments are equally important in creating a cool song, the solo is just part of it. There’s this emphasis on the guitar as a solo instrument and that you need at least two insane solos in any rock song. Imagine the drummer doing that, or the bass player. Hell, imagine Will Ferrel laying down that cowbell in poly-rhythmic blast beats any chance he gets. Might be fun for one song, provided it’s just the one song and it doesn’t last more than a minute.

Poly-rhythmic cowbell blast beats, like shredding, are an added feature to a song. They make a cool song even cooler. Overuse it, and it loses its power. It’s just like any hilarious joke or catch phrase: it doesn’t get funnier if you use it in every other sentence. In fact, healthy gut laughs will soon turn into polite ‘hahas’ and then awkward attempts at smiling. You won’t get invited to as many afterparties as you’d like and people will think that there’s something seriously wrong with you.

So, to use that analogy of the joke, shredding has been a running gag for almost thirty years. Isn't it time we came up with something new? Unless you have a obsessive compulsive disorder and the alternative to shredding is lying on stage in fetal position of course. It would make for a sad, sad show and you can just keep on shredding away! But for the rest of us, I think we can come up with awesome new guitar tricks we can exploit for the next thirty years. What do you guys think? Flame war in 3... 2... 1...



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Cosmin Lupu
post Apr 11 2014, 07:13 AM
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Thank you Headbanger and Drag0nz&meTaL:)

Todd - you are absolutely right, you should train every day in order to be able to use any of the arrows in your quiver at ease wink.gif I have seen too much abuse and that's why I have something against shredding. But I also have something against sucky slow playing as well laugh.gif

I think that I actually have something against bad taste actually, not a certain technique/approach. If you choose well and think about serving the song and not showing off for the sake of it, you might just pull it off nicely! As Gabi said, we get the exact same question in Days of Confusion - 'You three guys (Me, Cezar and Dan) are all great players, why don't you do solos in your songs?' I once told someone asking this question, that it is for the same reason he doesn't put milk, honey and coffee in his grilled salmon smile.gif


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wrk
post Apr 11 2014, 07:42 AM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Apr 11 2014, 08:13 AM) *
... I once told someone asking this question, that it is for the same reason he doesn't put milk, honey and coffee in his grilled salmon smile.gif

Hm, nice, i didn’t tried salmon and coffee yet, might add an interesting flavour in the sauce rolleyes.gif


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RichardK
post Apr 11 2014, 10:15 AM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Apr 11 2014, 06:13 AM) *
Thank you Headbanger and Drag0nz&meTaL:)

Todd - you are absolutely right, you should train every day in order to be able to use any of the arrows in your quiver at ease wink.gif I have seen too much abuse and that's why I have something against shredding. But I also have something against sucky slow playing as well laugh.gif

I think that I actually have something against bad taste actually, not a certain technique/approach. If you choose well and think about serving the song and not showing off for the sake of it, you might just pull it off nicely! As Gabi said, we get the exact same question in Days of Confusion - 'You three guys (Me, Cezar and Dan) are all great players, why don't you do solos in your songs?' I once told someone asking this question, that it is for the same reason he doesn't put milk, honey and coffee in his grilled salmon smile.gif


My thoughts exactly smile.gif. What I don't like about it is the showing off for the sake of showing off. For me, music expresses emotion, not so much technique. Skill is very important of course, but not the single most important thing. Otherwise, music would be a very pedantic thing. It would be like "Look at me being awesome" and the quality of a song would be defined by technique or form alone and it would be musicians playing for musicians, because they're the only ones that get the weird time signatures and exotic scales. It's about a great song that moves people, even if they don't know that much about music theory.
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Todd Simpson
post Apr 11 2014, 10:28 AM
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Well said!! I think the original poster is more against bad taste that shredding per se as well. Believe it or not so am I and I"m a "Shredder" smile.gif Never used to call myself that actually as it's a bit of a box to get stuck in. But as I do tend to put brisk bits in solos, it worked better than saying "I'm a BLUES player" smile.gif


TO WIT!!!!!!

Here is me getting all "Shreddy" during a BLUES SONG! (The Gary Moore Collab) See I am a blues player after all smile.gif hehehehe. Hopefully an example of it used well, but if not, it's a good example of me being me smile.gif






QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Apr 11 2014, 02:13 AM) *
Thank you Headbanger and Drag0nz&meTaL:)

Todd - you are absolutely right, you should train every day in order to be able to use any of the arrows in your quiver at ease wink.gif I have seen too much abuse and that's why I have something against shredding. But I also have something against sucky slow playing as well laugh.gif

I think that I actually have something against bad taste actually, not a certain technique/approach. If you choose well and think about serving the song and not showing off for the sake of it, you might just pull it off nicely! As Gabi said, we get the exact same question in Days of Confusion - 'You three guys (Me, Cezar and Dan) are all great players, why don't you do solos in your songs?' I once told someone asking this question, that it is for the same reason he doesn't put milk, honey and coffee in his grilled salmon smile.gif


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Apr 11 2014, 10:31 AM


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wrk
post Apr 11 2014, 10:54 AM
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QUOTE (RichardK @ Apr 11 2014, 11:15 AM) *
My thoughts exactly smile.gif. What I don't like about it is the showing off for the sake of showing off. For me, music expresses emotion, not so much technique. Skill is very important of course, but not the single most important thing. Otherwise, music would be a very pedantic thing. It would be like "Look at me being awesome" and the quality of a song would be defined by technique or form alone and it would be musicians playing for musicians, because they're the only ones that get the weird time signatures and exotic scales. It's about a great song that moves people, even if they don't know that much about music theory.

It's mainly the listener who loves to categorise and judge the music, feel and intention of others. I assume the musician just plays the way he feels like and i doubt they consider themselves as being a "show off" wink.gif






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RichardK
post Apr 11 2014, 11:46 AM
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QUOTE (wrk @ Apr 11 2014, 09:54 AM) *
It's mainly the listener who loves to categorise and judge the music, feel and intention of others. I assume the musician just plays the way he feels like and i doubt they consider themselves as being a "show off" wink.gif


That's very true, but a musician is also a listener who categorizes music just the same way. And you're right, they don't consider themselves show offs, most of them are proud and enthusiastic about their skills and want to implement that as much as possible. In your enthusiasm, it's easy to forget that the song comes first. Everybody has that, I certainly do at times smile.gif.

But I also know some musicians who are very concerned with being a musician's musician. A friend of mine is, and we frequently have heated discussions about it smile.gif. In his opinion, the more technical the playing and song arrangement, the better the song. And that's where I disagree. In artsy and philosophical terms, it's what you call a formalism versus expressionism discussion wink.gif.
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Monica Gheorghev...
post Apr 11 2014, 11:53 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Apr 11 2014, 09:28 AM) *
Well said!! I think the original poster is more against bad taste that shredding per se as well. Believe it or not so am I and I"m a "Shredder" smile.gif Never used to call myself that actually as it's a bit of a box to get stuck in. But as I do tend to put brisk bits in solos, it worked better than saying "I'm a BLUES player" smile.gif
TO WIT!!!!!!
Here is me getting all "Shreddy" during a BLUES SONG! (The Gary Moore Collab) See I am a blues player after all smile.gif hehehehe. Hopefully an example of it used well, but if not, it's a good example of me being me smile.gif


Your solo sounds awesome!!! It's not a problem when somebody use shredding. The problem is that most of the persons who have this ability don't have the idea when and how to use this. You, Ben and others like you guys, know what should do with this ability. It's not enough to play fast, must be made in a musical way wink.gif




This post has been edited by Monica Gheorghevici: Apr 11 2014, 11:54 AM
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Todd Simpson
post Apr 11 2014, 07:05 PM
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Thanks!! And you make a very good point!! "Knowing what to do with it" is really critical. Using ones ability like a firehose instead of a paint brush is bordering on unforgivable sin imho.

QUOTE (Monica Gheorghevici @ Apr 11 2014, 06:53 AM) *
Your solo sounds awesome!!! It's not a problem when somebody use shredding. The problem is that most of the persons who have this ability don't have the idea when and how to use this. You, Ben and others like you guys, know what should do with this ability. It's not enough to play fast, must be made in a musical way wink.gif


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Apr 11 2014, 07:06 PM


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post Apr 11 2014, 07:57 PM
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Awesome solo Todd smile.gif I would like to say that, shredding got me into playing guitar being a product of 80s hair bands and such, but my biggest problem that I'm paying for now is that I went straight to wanting to learn how to shred and didn't bother to learn the basics of proper strumming and rhythm playing of which now I love but is really hard for me to do and sorry sad.gif I hope I'm still on point with the topic.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Apr 12 2014, 10:13 PM
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Nice lines Todd!

Now, as you said, I think that the thing that we are all up against I daresay, is the bad taste not a certain approach wink.gif It's good that we all agree!


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post Apr 12 2014, 10:33 PM
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QUOTE (RichardK @ Apr 11 2014, 03:46 AM) *
But I also know some musicians who are very concerned with being a musician's musician. A friend of mine is, and we frequently have heated discussions about it smile.gif. In his opinion, the more technical the playing and song arrangement, the better the song. And that's where I disagree. In artsy and philosophical terms, it's what you call a formalism versus expressionism discussion wink.gif.


That's not a musician's musician at all. A true musician can find the sublime beauty in even the simplest but beautifully executed and felt piece of music ... even if done by a novice.

If the song calls for you to shred ... by all means, SHRED!
If not ... don't.

Play for the song.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Apr 12 2014, 10:36 PM


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