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> Rock Music,is It Sexist?, Have attitudes changed over the years?
Becca
post Apr 12 2014, 03:29 PM
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Now then this is something that seldom gets talked about now and I want to bring it out here, amongst my peers to see if attitudes have actually changed or if it is still an issue that is sniggered about behind closed doors.
That's why I am going to put it to you guys. Not me Braying Feminist cliches, because I am NOT about that, but a honest question and I expect you to be honest back! No one is judging any one here so i am going to write down my experiences and others and you can give me your honest thoughts on the subject, Ok ? Good.
Firstly lets square off the area by stating that Rock music has been traditionally seen by non fans as an "outsiders" thing. Adolescent pimply boys in their bedrooms with Black Sabbath patches on their denims that Mum has ironed for them. Thats the cliche view. Think of the video for Teenage Dirtbag by Wheatus for illustrative purposes.
Now think of how female Rock fans are viewed by non fans. The descriptions tend to be darker and more sinister. Freaks,and losers is pretty much how they are perceived. But now think how female guitar players are looked upon by their fellow Rock music fans.
Think guys, How many times have you heard "Not bad for a girl". Or " The bands crap but what do ya expect from girls"?
Or even thought it yourselves?
Or been to gigs where there are girls playing on stage and heard them being urged to take their tops off.
Does that still go on?
Is Rock music still a bastion of male oriented values and iffy moral codes or has it moved on and is now much more enlightened?
Is it trying to change or does it not need to?
What is your opinion on it?
Girl players out there, what is your experience in this sort of thing?
Cannot wait to hear from you all, lets discuss this properly.
Peace, people.


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Huargo
post Apr 12 2014, 03:44 PM
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Joan jett says!




i hate sexist people!
mad.gif


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Apr 12 2014, 04:04 PM
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It's true that the percentage of male rock musicians is much bigger but we can't say that there aren't girls that rock. I personally play in a rock band where the singer is a woman, and it has been very difficult for us to be considered "rock" and "serious" in the beginning. After 10 years, we could gain a name and we receive the respect deserved, but we always say that we started with a "no" from the people. We had to convince them...

These girls are just an example that girls can rock hard.







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Saoirse O'Shea
post Apr 12 2014, 05:50 PM
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In a word - yes.

Whilst the sexism has to some extent reduced in recent years it is none the less there. If you take John Charmaigne's idea of the hierarchy of the oppressed then the simple fact that sexism, mysogyny and patriarchial attitudes still pervade rock music (and the music industry more generally) it is rather sad news for other groups who are discriminated against - what hope for geting rid of homophobia, racism, transphobia and so on in rock music if sexism is still here...

Kim Gordon on sexism in rock music here

By the way Marion Leonard's 'Gender in the music industry: rock, discourse and girl power' is worth looking out for.

This post has been edited by tonymiro: Apr 12 2014, 05:53 PM


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klasaine
post Apr 12 2014, 06:25 PM
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Sadly I think that - as with most every other job on the planet - women and girls still get less respect overall. Music (whatever style) is no exception. It's a male dominated field - music in general, rock and roll in specific. They of course can 'prove themselves' but it's harder for them than most of the guys.

I do believe this though ...
Once guys get over their adolescent wannabe rockstar phase and start actually listening to music instead of focusing on the image (of male dominant R&R) then they (we) tend to adjust our attitude. We hear Joan Jett, Bonnie Raitt, the Wilson sisters, the women in Prince's bands, etc. and you can't deny that they kick serious ass.

Living and working in Los Angeles I got a different perspective. As much as I loved rock and roll I ultimately wanted to be a studio musician/freelancer. I learned there were quite a few very respected women in that area of the music industry.

Once you learn about this particular woman your perspective changes. Carol Kaye - guitar and bass on more radio hits in the 60s and 70s than you could ever imagine:
http://www.carolkaye.com/www/library/basshits.htm

This post has been edited by klasaine: Apr 12 2014, 06:30 PM


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Apr 12 2014, 06:25 PM
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Just to add a personal opinion as asked for -

Todd recently very kindly put up a link to a recent PhD about the male performativity and rock. To a great extent I don't want to take issue with a thesis that has been successfully examined and there was much to recomend the thesis but what irritated me was that the author argued that male rock fans are discriminated against because of their image and used Judith Butler's concept of performativity and discourse to support his contention. I'd agree that male rock fans can be discrimiated against but at least for me it was a misuse of Butler and showed an almost wilful ignorance of the issues of gender perfomativity and pastiche in relation to power and discourse that are central to Butler. Put simply in modern society the asymetric power hierarchy and structuring of society supports and is supported by the dominant (heterosexual) masculine order. A (heterosexual) male rock fan performs their identity within that dominant fraction, a female rock fan or artist is always other to it. Whilst one may make the claim that a (heterosexual) male rock fan can be discriminated against because they are a minority (which was done in the thesis) they nonetheless are able to easily change their clothes, cut their hair and so on to appear the same as the dominant disourse. It isn't anything like as simple as that when it comes down to gender identity or non-heterosexuality.
The strength of performativity, and in conjunction with it pastiche, is that it allows for a non- (heterosexual) male discourse that questions and subvert gender roles via, for instance, iteration and playfulness. The downside is that it does so from within a (heterosexual) masculine discourse and thus remain in reaction to it. It is interpolated as Althuser might have said.

One caveat - I am of course just quickly skating over Butler's arguments that run through her ouvre and so have (grossly and overly) simplified the arguments.

This post has been edited by tonymiro: Apr 12 2014, 06:32 PM


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jstcrsn
post Apr 12 2014, 07:46 PM
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swooning , not sexism is my answer
money talks, to a large degree, a male rock star draws the money from the young girls (that may be sexist as well), and the girls go to concerts , and the boys follow the girls.The other side of the coin is no matter how good or how hot or a combination of both she is,men don't swoon and end up spending lots of money.If you want to get down to it , learn how to stop girls swooning and both sexes of musicians can be poor.
Got to love the free market, but you guessed it , it drives me crazy people trying to force equality, and before someone gets their panties in a wad- this is not about equality of the sexes-like equal pay for women.

This post has been edited by jstcrsn: Apr 12 2014, 07:53 PM
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Marek Rojewski
post Apr 12 2014, 08:19 PM
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Most people are sexist (yes, not only men but also woman, gender is a very important factor of ones personality, and it is much more common to think in ones gender in superlatives than in negatives), so obviously "rock people" consist of the same "people" as everything else.

Still I agree with jstcrsn, free market (this translates to "what people want") is the nemesis of those who want to force "equality". There are many serious issues where equality would be beneficial, but there are also many situations when there is no need whatsoever to promote it.


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klasaine
post Apr 12 2014, 10:25 PM
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I agree with both jstcrsn and Marek as far as 'pop' and the commercial aspect of probably all music is concerned. That's just a market and marketing thing. It's as simple as ... you want people to show up at your gigs? you gotta get girls to show up at you gigs. The guys go where the girls are. That's easy and easily explainable.

But I think, and Becca tell if I'm wrong, that the OP is referring to respect as a musician in rock music. As in are Jennifer Batton or Orianthi as good as Steve Vai and Joe Satriani? Or is Tal Wilkenfeld, who's played bass with Jeff Beck for years now, respected as much as say Billy Sheehan or Nathan East? This runs way deeper culturally, sociologically, psychologically and even emotionally.

Do I think anything could or should be done about it? No ... and what could be done? Rock music (all music) is for all intents and purposes a product ... and a non-essential one at that. Cultural attitudes towards women have to change in general before they'll ever change w/in one specific discipline.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Apr 12 2014, 10:29 PM


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Becca
post Apr 13 2014, 06:47 AM
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QUOTE (huargo @ Apr 12 2014, 02:44 PM) *
Joan jett says!




i hate sexist people!
mad.gif

Ha Ha Rockin' Joan Jett. Good choice. I always admired that ballsy guitar sound on that riff. To my shame both of my daughters preferred Britneys version ohmy.gif . There is a twist to this though. Didn't the suits discard the rest of The Runaways to push marketable Joan? Same with Susannah Hoffs from The Bangles. yes, that was the 80's and MTV was the prime consideration for the bean counters, but do you think the rock fan base would accept that now? I would like to hear your opinion on whether times really have changed and for the better.

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Apr 12 2014, 03:04 PM) *
It's true that the percentage of male rock musicians is much bigger but we can't say that there aren't girls that rock. I personally play in a rock band where the singer is a woman, and it has been very difficult for us to be considered "rock" and "serious" in the beginning. After 10 years, we could gain a name and we receive the respect deserved, but we always say that we started with a "no" from the people. We had to convince them...

These girls are just an example that girls can rock hard.


Yep, the ratio to female/male in the rock genre is significantly different. No argument there, Some would say that its just the nature of rock music appealing to males more than females. I have no idea if that is true or not but I know that many girls buy the albums and are much more knowledgeable than I am on bands histories, personnel changes etc. Yet they would never go to gigs because of the comments and leers they invariably get. Having a girl as frontman,(yes, I get the irony,but frontperson just seems wrong) must have caused you all to battle even harder to get taken seriously. Well done to you. Have you found that now after 10years of slogging that sexism has disappeared from your scene or doyou feel other bands will have to run the same gauntlet you guys did?


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Becca
post Apr 13 2014, 07:21 AM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Apr 12 2014, 06:46 PM) *
swooning , not sexism is my answer
money talks, to a large degree, a male rock star draws the money from the young girls (that may be sexist as well), and the girls go to concerts , and the boys follow the girls.The other side of the coin is no matter how good or how hot or a combination of both she is,men don't swoon and end up spending lots of money.If you want to get down to it , learn how to stop girls swooning and both sexes of musicians can be poor.
Got to love the free market, but you guessed it , it drives me crazy people trying to force equality, and before someone gets their panties in a wad- this is not about equality of the sexes-like equal pay for women.

Wow, here it is in all its presumptive glory. Thank you for your candour and ridiculous assertions. Only girls swoon over performers? Pat Benatar,Shakira, Christine Aguilera, who the hell do you think buys their merchandise? You also seem to assume that equality is being forced upon you. Not so. Women musicians just want to play their stuff and not be ridiculed for doing so.
And the panties remark?
Irrelevant, needlessly insulting and rather pathetic.

QUOTE (Marek Rojewski @ Apr 12 2014, 07:19 PM) *
Most people are sexist (yes, not only men but also woman, gender is a very important factor of ones personality, and it is much more common to think in ones gender in superlatives than in negatives), so obviously "rock people" consist of the same "people" as everything else.

Still I agree with jstcrsn, free market (this translates to "what people want") is the nemesis of those who want to force "equality". There are many serious issues where equality would be beneficial, but there are also many situations when there is no need whatsoever to promote it.

Hi Marek. Rather disappointed that even though you read jstcrsn post you feel there is no need to promote less sexist attitudes. No one is trying to force equality, never even suggested it. But the kneejerk reaction of some of these posts makes me wonder what got you all so rattled. I,d love to hear your thoughts on that.


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Becca
post Apr 13 2014, 07:52 AM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ Apr 12 2014, 05:25 PM) *
Just to add a personal opinion as asked for -

Todd recently very kindly put up a link to a recent PhD about the male performativity and rock. To a great extent I don't want to take issue with a thesis that has been successfully examined and there was much to recomend the thesis but what irritated me was that the author argued that male rock fans are discriminated against because of their image and used Judith Butler's concept of performativity and discourse to support his contention. I'd agree that male rock fans can be discrimiated against but at least for me it was a misuse of Butler and showed an almost wilful ignorance of the issues of gender perfomativity and pastiche in relation to power and discourse that are central to Butler. Put simply in modern society the asymetric power hierarchy and structuring of society supports and is supported by the dominant (heterosexual) masculine order. A (heterosexual) male rock fan performs their identity within that dominant fraction, a female rock fan or artist is always other to it. Whilst one may make the claim that a (heterosexual) male rock fan can be discriminated against because they are a minority (which was done in the thesis) they nonetheless are able to easily change their clothes, cut their hair and so on to appear the same as the dominant disourse. It isn't anything like as simple as that when it comes down to gender identity or non-heterosexuality.
The strength of performativity, and in conjunction with it pastiche, is that it allows for a non- (heterosexual) male discourse that questions and subvert gender roles via, for instance, iteration and playfulness. The downside is that it does so from within a (heterosexual) masculine discourse and thus remain in reaction to it. It is interpolated as Althuser might have said.

One caveat - I am of course just quickly skating over Butler's arguments that run through her ouvre and so have (grossly and overly) simplified the arguments.

Wow Tony you certainly put the work in on this. THANK YOU. Er..I am a qualified Staff nurse with a science degree and I struggle to understand the paper.Note to self, read up on Sociology smile.gif
What you said in your other post on this topic is really true. On the whole, society is s l o w l y improving but all discriminatory attitudes are wildly variable in different regions. I am not trying to force equality but rather stimulate debate. Things brought out into the light generally benefit from a good airing, dont you agree? I have to admit to being pleased with the responses so far. Even with the ones I disagree with and was irritated by. I started this topic from the perspective of anti female bias because that is what I have been confronted with. Do you think a further debate on other discriminatory attitudes would be beneficial?


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Becca
post Apr 13 2014, 08:19 AM
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Gosh people, this is an encouraging start. Thank you to everyone who responded to this so far.Even the ones I disagreed with. I asked for honesty and got it.
I have tried to respond to all posters but I have to dash to work so if I missed you out its an oversight not a rebuke.
Would love to get more responders to this, especially the girls.
How about we modify the topic slightly to include other discriminatory attitudes. anything you have come up against?
Uh oh. Clock is ticking and I have to dash. see you later.
Peace people.


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Marek Rojewski
post Apr 13 2014, 10:15 AM
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Discussion generally can be entertaining, but I doubt in it's beneficial value most of the time... As bad and sad it sounds, I really have to try hard to recall the last time I witnessed someone changes ones mind on a subject ohmy.gif Most of the time it is just ones views manifesto, and if it is done without much violence in a civil way it will be called "beneficial" but I don't really see in what way it was mellow.gif

And again as irritating it can be, I'll agree that from my experience girls "swoon" more than boys. I don't really know boys that bought any merchandise associated with some girl bands (no matter the music genre). I also don't know boys that go to the cinema to watch a pretty girl on a big screen (in fact from my experience the tradition to put a stupid and pretty girl in every movie is very annoying and I would be happy if these scenes were deleted) and I do know many girls that does the opposite. In fact there is a new tradition in for example Marvel movies, that every male hero has to have a scene or two without a t-shirt put on, and this is obviously for the girls. I was shocked to notice that my intelligent friends of woman sex do like it, and after a movie can say "the movie was awesome, this scene without a t-shirt "soo good", the rest was decent". I mean, the last time I could hear something like that from a boy was when I was 12 years old, not 27.

So to sum it up, I don't really care about who swoons more, but from my experience it is as jstcrsn wrote. What is more I agree with the results he described, in fact from my own experience and the experience of my friends I can say that I/my friends often go to a concert that my/their girlfriends want to see, but the opposite is rarely true - so the mechanism does work sleep.gif

I think I am treating woman musicians the same way as men (there is the "oh nice moment" when I see them, because they are more rare, and rare = nice), but if the economical side of thing really is that men can be more "profitable" then I doubt that the business will ever treat them equally. And as far as business goes I don't think much can be done in this department.

I feel bad about writing all those negative thoughts, but for the sake of discussion I did;) I also stand ready to be proved wrong wink.gif


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Apr 13 2014, 11:18 AM
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QUOTE (Becca @ Apr 13 2014, 07:52 AM) *
... I am not trying to force equality but rather stimulate debate. Things brought out into the light generally benefit from a good airing, dont you agree? ...


In a word yes I do agree.

Personally I think that what little gender equality* between men and women now exists is largely (and perhaps wholly) down to women fighting for their rights and keeping it front and centre. Perhaps cynically IMO there is very little reason why a white male will forego the priviliges that they recieve routinely from a society that discrimiates in their favour: so women have had to fight for their rights.
Any modern democratic society should have open communication and debates on important issues central to how they are constituted and operate and you would struggle to have a proper democracy without it. However, many/most/all modern societies only partially implement this despite claiming that they support it.
In a similar way I've always believed that English society needs to be more upfront with racists like the NF/BNP/League of St George/Column58/etc rather than hope that they will go away: they don't they just fester away in the dark. Whilst giving them coverage may result in a small number joining them far more would see the stupidity and banality of their beliefs.


QUOTE
...I started this topic from the perspective of anti female bias because that is what I have been confronted with. Do you think a further debate on other discriminatory attitudes would be beneficial?


Again, yes.

One thing that personally concerns me is that many people in modern society remain largely oblivious to the many forms of discrimination that exist. It's Charmaign's argument that people wish to deal with one issue, starting with a/the major one, at a time. Hence women's rights has taken centre stage for many years and now that some think that women have equality (which they haven't) we can now turn our attention to 'dealing' with some other form of discrmination such as racism or homophobia. In a 100 years or so society will decide that that issue has been sufficiently dealt with and turn to the next, and so on. If you're discriminated against how long do you have to wait before society decides you're next? Many who are discriminated against are discriminated against on more than one issue; a partial solution doesn't make the discrimination go away.
So personally I think we should have a debate on how and why Discrimination per se exists rather than the continued attempt to deal with discriminatory practices one by one.

*I don't think women have achieved equality. Whilst you've had the vote and emancipation in the Uk for @100 years and whilst there has been equal opportunities legislation etc for the best part of 50 years women in the UK still earn considerably less than men for work of equal value. (And there are many more issues of course.)
Similarly Stonewall took place decades ago yet same sex marriage has only just recieved legal status in the UK. So 50 years to deal with one aspect of homophobia (and in Spain we're repealing laws that provide some gay rights - 1 step forward and 2 backwards) ...
Racism - just how many examples are there now of institutionalised racism in the various UK police forces? I believe the statistics is that you are 10 times more likely to be arrested and receive a custodial sentence if you are coloured than white in England fr the same crime...
People with physical challenges - so what has really changed since the 2012 Paraolympics?
Transgenders have no legal rights in 2/3rds of European countries. I guess in 50 years or more the UK may get around to recognising and legalising a transgender marriage.
Living dolls (as an example as they've only just started to receive media attention) presumably are at the bottom of the hierarchy of the oppressed so may have to wait 1000s of years before all the above are sorted out first.

Caveat - I'm again glossing and simplifying complicated arguements.


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jstcrsn
post Apr 13 2014, 11:38 AM
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QUOTE (Becca @ Apr 13 2014, 07:21 AM) *
Wow, here it is in all its presumptive glory. Thank you for your candour and ridiculous assertions. Only girls swoon over performers? Pat Benatar,Shakira, Christine Aguilera, who the hell do you think buys their merchandise? You also seem to assume that equality is being forced upon you. Not so. Women musicians just want to play their stuff and not be ridiculed for doing so.
And the panties remark?
Irrelevant, needlessly insulting and rather pathetic.


Hi

first Relax, it seems like ever since you have been here , you try to drop bombs in these post so you can come back and tear some one down, cry wolf to many times and people will stop answering your threads
I stand by my answer as a generalization , not the rule , yes guys buy stuff, but not like Girls.Lets say girls spend 15 percent more,not much by any standards, but at a million dollars in sales, that's 150,000 more, enough to take a band profitable and leave another barely scraping by.As far as equal rights being forced down upon me, I was merely trying to say that I don't think this has anything to do with that aspect of things, but rather the free market.
Is there sexism , sure , but I guess I don't see it, because I have never listened to music I like and asked"I wonder if it is a girl".If I like it I buy it, what about all the music from men that I don't like either.
about the panties remark, sorry if it offended you.This is an off the cuff remark that is said to mean ,don't take this to literally and get bent out of shape.I say it to my wife and my wife says it to me.after reading your intro thread seems you have scars from sexism and had I known that i would have rephrased the cliche.

This post has been edited by jstcrsn: Apr 13 2014, 11:49 AM
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Becca
post Apr 14 2014, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Apr 12 2014, 09:25 PM) *
I agree with both jstcrsn and Marek as far as 'pop' and the commercial aspect of probably all music is concerned. That's just a market and marketing thing. It's as simple as ... you want people to show up at your gigs? you gotta get girls to show up at you gigs. The guys go where the girls are. That's easy and easily explainable.

But I think, and Becca tell if I'm wrong, that the OP is referring to respect as a musician in rock music. As in are Jennifer Batton or Orianthi as good as Steve Vai and Joe Satriani? Or is Tal Wilkenfeld, who's played bass with Jeff Beck for years now, respected as much as say Billy Sheehan or Nathan East? This runs way deeper culturally, sociologically, psychologically and even emotionally.

Do I think anything could or should be done about it? No ... and what could be done? Rock music (all music) is for all intents and purposes a product ... and a non-essential one at that. Cultural attitudes towards women have to change in general before they'll ever change w/in one specific discipline.

Hi Kenny,firstly my apologies for not getting back to you earlier. I had posted a reply to you yesterday but in my rush to get to work I must have clicked preview instead of post. What a klutz!
Yes, you are perfectly correct that I am referring to mutual respect in the work we put in to our craft. And it is a craft as I am sure you know. That link to Carol Kaye was inspired and I have to admit that I was unaware of her body of work until I read it. Wow! Very impressive track record.
I am not suggesting that folks be forced to change their cultural attitudes but I do believe that raising issues in a discussion forum and making people aware that there is an issue here may help folks think a little and perhaps challenge issues where they arise. A Hearts and minds kind of deal. Of course I am aware that "sex sells". I don't have issues with the practicalities of the business particularly in the pop market. I do feel however that it shouldn't be the be all and end all and permeate every level, which it could easily do if left unchallenged. A good example of the "ideal" for me would be how Julie Slick from the Adrian Belew Power Trio is accepted as a quality musician. It would be great if that was how it worked in more cases.
see you later.


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Becca
post Apr 14 2014, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Apr 13 2014, 10:38 AM) *
first Relax, it seems like ever since you have been here , you try to drop bombs in these post so you can come back and tear some one down, cry wolf to many times and people will stop answering your threads
I stand by my answer as a generalization , not the rule , yes guys buy stuff, but not like Girls.Lets say girls spend 15 percent more,not much by any standards, but at a million dollars in sales, that's 150,000 more, enough to take a band profitable and leave another barely scraping by.As far as equal rights being forced down upon me, I was merely trying to say that I don't think this has anything to do with that aspect of things, but rather the free market.
Is there sexism , sure , but I guess I don't see it, because I have never listened to music I like and asked"I wonder if it is a girl".If I like it I buy it, what about all the music from men that I don't like either.
about the panties remark, sorry if it offended you.This is an off the cuff remark that is said to mean ,don't take this to literally and get bent out of shape.I say it to my wife and my wife says it to me.after reading your intro thread seems you have scars from sexism and had I known that i would have rephrased the cliche.

Hi J, Apology gracefully accepted. A little bomb of your own in a post about sexism maybe wink.gif ?
Not sure exactly what you mean by my tearing people down in my posts. This is a discussion forum isn't it? I simply wish to offer things up for discussion and take part in a sensible debate, sure I will fight my corner if pushed ,but I don't wish to offend people needlessly and put people off from responding to me. Anyway,you got back to me and good on you for doing so, maybe I am not as scary as perceived.
You obviously thought about the issues this post raises and that's great. I wouldn't say I have scars from sexism, I been lucky in that respect but if I may tell you about an incident that occurred in the eighties it may clarify my position slightly.
The band I was in at the time were sharing a bill at a college gig in London ,also on the bill were an all girl Feminist band who spent the whole of their set goading the crowd with remarks along the "All men are potential rapists" kind! When I first heard them ranting my heart sank and I just thought "Oh Sh*t"! I challenged them on it when they came off as I had to go out there,with the lads of my band and face a hostile crowd because of my gender. They just could not see my POV and became aggressive so I left them too it.
Sure enough, when I walked on it was to wolf whistles and cat calls and I couldn't blame them. They had been wound up to it by a bunch of extremist idiots. I had to take the mic and say something along the lines of how they didn't speak for all us girls but that was a tough gig. And it needn't have been.
So there is it is. Forcing views down peoples throats is never going to change anything. Maybe talking about things can raise awareness and make a small difference one step at a time.
My main point in the OP was about how female muso's get perceived and you answered that in your response. So, what d'ya think, has that cleared the air much?

QUOTE (tonymiro @ Apr 13 2014, 10:18 AM) *
In a word yes I do agree.

Personally I think that what little gender equality* between men and women now exists is largely (and perhaps wholly) down to women fighting for their rights and keeping it front and centre. Perhaps cynically IMO there is very little reason why a white male will forego the priviliges that they recieve routinely from a society that discrimiates in their favour: so women have had to fight for their rights.
Any modern democratic society should have open communication and debates on important issues central to how they are constituted and operate and you would struggle to have a proper democracy without it. However, many/most/all modern societies only partially implement this despite claiming that they support it.
In a similar way I've always believed that English society needs to be more upfront with racists like the NF/BNP/League of St George/Column58/etc rather than hope that they will go away: they don't they just fester away in the dark. Whilst giving them coverage may result in a small number joining them far more would see the stupidity and banality of their beliefs.




Again, yes.

One thing that personally concerns me is that many people in modern society remain largely oblivious to the many forms of discrimination that exist. It's Charmaign's argument that people wish to deal with one issue, starting with a/the major one, at a time. Hence women's rights has taken centre stage for many years and now that some think that women have equality (which they haven't) we can now turn our attention to 'dealing' with some other form of discrmination such as racism or homophobia. In a 100 years or so society will decide that that issue has been sufficiently dealt with and turn to the next, and so on. If you're discriminated against how long do you have to wait before society decides you're next? Many who are discriminated against are discriminated against on more than one issue; a partial solution doesn't make the discrimination go away.
So personally I think we should have a debate on how and why Discrimination per se exists rather than the continued attempt to deal with discriminatory practices one by one.

*I don't think women have achieved equality. Whilst you've had the vote and emancipation in the Uk for @100 years and whilst there has been equal opportunities legislation etc for the best part of 50 years women in the UK still earn considerably less than men for work of equal value. (And there are many more issues of course.)
Similarly Stonewall took place decades ago yet same sex marriage has only just recieved legal status in the UK. So 50 years to deal with one aspect of homophobia (and in Spain we're repealing laws that provide some gay rights - 1 step forward and 2 backwards) ...
Racism - just how many examples are there now of institutionalised racism in the various UK police forces? I believe the statistics is that you are 10 times more likely to be arrested and receive a custodial sentence if you are coloured than white in England fr the same crime...
People with physical challenges - so what has really changed since the 2012 Paraolympics?
Transgenders have no legal rights in 2/3rds of European countries. I guess in 50 years or more the UK may get around to recognising and legalising a transgender marriage.
Living dolls (as an example as they've only just started to receive media attention) presumably are at the bottom of the hierarchy of the oppressed so may have to wait 1000s of years before all the above are sorted out first.

Caveat - I'm again glossing and simplifying complicated arguements.

Tony, you have done the business again. Excellent points here,my friend and enough discussion points to raise a whole new sub set of topics. I am going to have a think on these points that you raised as I believe these issues deserve a new post with a complete and frank discussion on the issues. If you will forgive me I will come back to you on the rise of certain neo-fascist political parties in the UK later ,as I have to go out shortly and I want to address this and the other issues fully. They are issues that I have personally been campaigning against for some time and are important issues that reflect on society as a whole.
Until later then?
Becca.


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Apr 14 2014, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE (Becca @ Apr 13 2014, 02:47 AM) *
Yep, the ratio to female/male in the rock genre is significantly different. No argument there, Some would say that its just the nature of rock music appealing to males more than females. I have no idea if that is true or not but I know that many girls buy the albums and are much more knowledgeable than I am on bands histories, personnel changes etc. Yet they would never go to gigs because of the comments and leers they invariably get. Having a girl as frontman,(yes, I get the irony,but frontperson just seems wrong) must have caused you all to battle even harder to get taken seriously. Well done to you. Have you found that now after 10years of slogging that sexism has disappeared from your scene or doyou feel other bands will have to run the same gauntlet you guys did?


It didn't disappeared but something changed at least in Argentina in the last 3 years. Cirse and some other bands leaded by women are now the "new" bands which attack a lot of the attention of press and people in general. Neither Cirse and the other bands are big/mainstream bands but everybody knows about our existence, and we are even around the 3 album so we don't now what can happen in the near future...


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Apr 14 2014, 05:39 PM
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Just a comment on the use of language, how it is culturally and historically grounded and how a word or phrase may discriminate iwhether intentionally or not because of its grounding...

This is quite a nice and clear article regarding how one word is grounded in sexist assumptions -
http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/13/ab...ile-hysterical/

In addition, language of course isn't hermetically sealed: it may change and one of the most powerful modern examples is how certain offensive words have been recouperated by the social groups that they were originally used to insult and discriminate against. Recouperation however does not necessarily legitimise nor stop he word/phrase being discriminatory when its used by another group and an argument that 'it's ok to say it because they do as well' is somewhat specious. A suggestion that someone who feels discriminated against lacks a sense of humour etc is a form of doubled ressentiment and delegitimation in that it blames the victim for being victimised and so arguably piles insult upon insult.

All of this is discussed by Judith Butler in several of her works when she talks about discourse and power. Marion Leonard's book that i mentioned earlier grounds this very nicely with regard to sexism and the music indstry.

With regard to the idea that the music industry is part of culture and cultural attitudes need to change first before it does, well yes and no. Yes it is cultural, part of culture and the cultural industry but culture can be changed from within by iteration and by bringing it in to question - something that popular music has done for many years. If it does not and can not help change things then all we have is a form of quiescence. Just my opinion though.


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