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> Rock Music,is It Sexist?, Have attitudes changed over the years?
klasaine
post Apr 14 2014, 06:19 PM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ Apr 14 2014, 09:39 AM) *
With regard to the idea that the music industry is part of culture and cultural attitudes need to change first before it does, well yes and no. Yes it is cultural, part of culture and the cultural industry but culture can be changed from within by iteration and by bringing it in to question - something that popular music has done for many years. If it does not and can not help change things then all we have is a form of quiescence. Just my opinion though.


I assume that's in reference to something I talked about earlier in this thread.
And I agree completely with you Tony. Art in general has always been one of the big (if not the biggest) cultural and sociological movers that we have. I think that musicians, artists and writers have, in a big way, helped bring awareness to racial and gender issues/discrimination. And because artists never really 'let up' - it actually works. Slowly, but it works.



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Saoirse O'Shea
post Apr 14 2014, 07:38 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Apr 14 2014, 05:19 PM) *
.... Art in general has always been one of the big (if not the biggest) cultural and sociological movers that we have. I think that musicians, artists and writers have, in a big way, helped bring awareness to racial and gender issues/discrimination. And because artists never really 'let up' - it actually works. Slowly, but it works.


Very much so Ken smile.gif . Henri Bergson - and subsequently borrowed by Anthony Giddens - used the term 'long duree' to describe how things may change through a long passage of time.

(BTW I wasn't really referring to your post or indeed anyone else here but was more generalising. I've come across too many ideas of universalism in philosophy that lead to some masked acceptance of quiescence and so on over the years, so it was more generalising about them. To be absolutely honest you've always come across to me as more thoughtful than one who might accept things like that wholesale and without question.)


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SirJamsalot
post Apr 14 2014, 09:29 PM
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You should try being 45 years old and reading through Craigslist ads that say "looking for guitarist" - please be 17 - 24 years old. How many "popular" bands out there still on stage that made it starting in their 30's - 40's? Culture is geared around teeny-boppers - that's what sells these days - skimpy outfits, six pack abs, full head of hair and I guess now twerking.

Does sexism exist? Yes. So does Agism, weightism and Uglyism. It is what it is. Not much you can do about it. If you want to play music, then play music. If you want to be famous or accepted by the masses, then plan on fulfilling their expectations. There is a preconceived notion about stars that has to be met. It's a rare gem that breaks/creates a new expectation in culture, regardless of talent.

Case in point - one of the talented teachers on GMC has/had an opportunity to be guitarist for Avril Lavigne. If memory serves, he had to go on a workout schedule to lose weight and tone up as one of the conditions. What does that have to do with music at all? It doesn't - stage appearance is everything.

How's that for a depressing reality?

This post has been edited by SirJamsalot: Apr 14 2014, 09:35 PM


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bleez
post Apr 14 2014, 09:46 PM
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QUOTE (SirJamsalot @ Apr 14 2014, 09:29 PM) *
You should try being 45 years old and reading through Craigslist ads that say "looking for guitarist" - please be 17 - 24 years old. How many "popular" bands out there still on stage that made it starting in their 30's - 40's? Culture is geared around teeny-boppers - that's what sells these days - skimpy outfits, six pack abs, full head of hair and I guess now twerking.

Does sexism exist? Yes. So does Agism, weightism and Uglyism. It is what it is. Not much you can do about it. If you want to play music, then play music. If you want to be famous or accepted by the masses, then plan on fulfilling their expectations.

This is indeed a depressingly accurate assessment. you said what I was thinking, dude. dry.gif


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SirJamsalot
post Apr 14 2014, 10:03 PM
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QUOTE (bleez @ Apr 14 2014, 01:46 PM) *
This is indeed a depressingly accurate assessment. you said what I was thinking, dude. dry.gif


I love making people cry laugh.gif


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klasaine
post Apr 15 2014, 12:05 AM
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QUOTE (SirJamsalot @ Apr 14 2014, 01:29 PM) *
one of the talented teachers on GMC has/had an opportunity to be guitarist for Avril Lavigne. If memory serves, he had to go on a workout schedule to lose weight and tone up as one of the conditions. What does that have to do with music at all? It doesn't - stage appearance is everything.

How's that for a depressing reality?


That's an awesome 1st world problem if there ever was one! I have been told more than once about what to wear, how to wear or cut my hair, facial hair yes/facial hair no ... and to lose some weight (I'm not even over weight but hey, they like skinny). Whatever - they paid for it and they paid me. De rigueur.
That's show biz. And don't fool yourself - rock and roll has ALWAYS been show business. Especially the poppier end of it. The minute Elvis grew his hair a little long and dyed it black and went on TV ... the dye was cast. You think Avril Lavigne is really a blond with actual dark circles under her eyes all the time and never eats? laugh.gif I'm sure she's f'n sick of that look.

So, excellent reason to learn to read music and play jazz, country, soul, bluegrass, prog and maybe some classical or ethnic music.
You can be fat, ugly, bald, old, totally un-cool and still get gigs. I'm a perfect example. You just need to lose the pointy headstock guitars, buy a Tele or an LP and you're golden.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Apr 15 2014, 05:43 AM


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Todd Simpson
post Apr 16 2014, 06:25 AM
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The guys in CANNIBAL CORPSE all play pointy guitars and they are all pushing 50 smile.gif So yeah, you can be ugly, fat, and old and still play music that you really love and have people connect to it.

When I was playing in GNOSTIC for about a year, every player in the band was not young, and then they went on to play bunches of big festivals in Euope as Gnostic and as ATHEIST which are essentially the same band. smile.gif

So if you wanna play a tele, go for it, if you wanna play a pointy guitar and bang your head, go for that smile.gif Just play the music that comes form a place of honesty. Not what you think will get you points in the biz. Stay true to what you are in to and you can be proud and stand tall smile.gif

For me. METAL. METAL and METAL smile.gif
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Apr 14 2014, 07:05 PM) *
That's an awesome 1st world problem if there ever was one! I have been told more than once about what to wear, how to wear or cut my hair, facial hair yes/facial hair no ... and to lose some weight (I'm not even over weight but hey, they like skinny). Whatever - they paid for it and they paid me. De rigueur.
That's show biz. And don't fool yourself - rock and roll has ALWAYS been show business. Especially the poppier end of it. The minute Elvis grew his hair a little long and dyed it black and went on TV ... the dye was cast. You think Avril Lavigne is really a blond with actual dark circles under her eyes all the time and never eats? laugh.gif I'm sure she's f'n sick of that look.

So, excellent reason to learn to read music and play jazz, country, soul, bluegrass, prog and maybe some classical or ethnic music.
You can be fat, ugly, bald, old, totally un-cool and still get gigs. I'm a perfect example. You just need to lose the pointy headstock guitars, buy a Tele or an LP and you're golden.



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klasaine
post Apr 16 2014, 08:09 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Apr 15 2014, 10:25 PM) *
The guys in CANNIBAL CORPSE all play pointy guitars and they are all pushing 50 smile.gif So yeah, you can be ugly, fat, and old and still play music that you really love and have people connect to it.

When I was playing in GNOSTIC for about a year, every player in the band was not young, and then they went on to play bunches of big festivals in Euope as Gnostic and as ATHEIST which are essentially the same band. smile.gif

So if you wanna play a tele, go for it, if you wanna play a pointy guitar and bang your head, go for that smile.gif Just play the music that comes form a place of honesty. Not what you think will get you points in the biz. Stay true to what you are in to and you can be proud and stand tall smile.gif

For me. METAL. METAL and METAL smile.gif
Todd


That all brings up another issue. In the case of, lets just call it ageism or looksism ... is it the fans (or potential fans) with the ism problem or the band members/leaders?
There are plenty of rock, punk and metal bands of older guys and gals out there doin it. Playing clubs and festivals, making records and even getting paid. Of course if you look on Craigslist there's gonna be a bunch of douchebags looking for only 'black haired, tat'd and pierced, must be under 24, skinny, no false metal, etc.' guitar players.
Ads for musos wanted have always been that way. Don't f'n look on CL! Go to the bars and clubs where they play the music you wanna do - hang out, meet people, hook up a jam. All that looks and age shit goes out the window at that point.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Apr 16 2014, 08:10 AM


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PosterBoy
post Apr 16 2014, 08:23 AM
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With pop music in which I am including all mainstream genres and a few outside of mainstream, you are selling/promoting a brand/lifestyle/attitude however fake that might be, it's not just about the music.

I'm pretty sure Alex didn't manage to get the 6 pack required of Avril's management. As part of her band he would have been a reflection of her brand, so you have to fit the image and chubby doesn't fly with that.

I'm sure a few death metal bands wouldn't have a following if they dressed like and looked like they had the lifestyle of a group of accountants.

Look at Rick Graham, even though he's just an internet brand via youtube, his website and now Lick Library, I bet now he's in shape he gets more attention and respect than when he was fat, nothing to do with his playing but how he is perceived. Whilst guitarists might be thinking I want to play like him, their sub-conscious is probably taking in how he looks and thinking I want to be like him.

At the end of the day if you want to be a popular artist, you have to sell yourself as a product just as much as your music.

This post has been edited by PosterBoy: Apr 16 2014, 08:25 AM


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Becca
post Apr 20 2014, 03:24 PM
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Wowsers, chaps you are all extremely erudite and bring up very important points! It's interesting to note how many of you picked up on the age/image side of the business.That is something I would love to explore further alongside other discriminatory attitudes on another day.
It certainly seems to me that Artistes possess a more tolerant outlook to the "norm" (if there is indeed such a thing).
Thank you all for making this thread such an enlightening and informative one. Good on you all.


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Ben Higgins
post Apr 20 2014, 07:04 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Apr 15 2014, 12:05 AM) *
So, excellent reason to learn to read music and play jazz, country, soul, bluegrass, prog and maybe some classical or ethnic music.....
You just need to lose the pointy headstock guitars, buy a Tele or an LP and you're golden.


Translation:

"Todd and Ben are morons !"

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klasaine
post Apr 20 2014, 08:18 PM
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As we say in the states ... present company excepted wink.gif


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