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> Improving Tone, Drop C, cosmins metal metrics, and recording
dcz702
post Apr 22 2014, 12:21 AM
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im wondering some things, ive been playing alot in drop c, and every time i practice i usually record myself a couple times at the end of my sessions to compare improvement and tones. since ive been playing in drop c ive been changing settings to try to get a better sound.. Since ive been playing in drop c, practicing several different tunes i feel my sound is kind of muddy. i play through a backstar ht-20 and a mesa boogie mini rec, using emg active pickups and 11-52 strings.

no matter what amp im using i just cant seem to get a sound im happy with, this is a recording of cosmins Metal Metrics 1 slowed down to 100bpm, with no back track so maybe you can listen and give suggestions.
also i uploaded pic of my blackstar settings wich is the amp i use to rec. i use the emulated output right into my audio interface and the cab i silenced with all sound coming out of my monitors while i record. to me it just doesnt sound right. i know the lesson needs alot of work but the muddy sound bothers me. https://soundcloud.com/rockmusic-915/metalmetrics

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Gabriel Leopardi
post Apr 22 2014, 03:23 PM
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Comparing your sound with Cosmin's I note that the main difference is your tone needs more treble (around 3000 HZ or 5000 HZ). The difference in sound can also be achieved moving the mic, are you using a mic to record your guitar?

Check how important the change can be:




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Cosmin Lupu
post Apr 22 2014, 05:12 PM
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Hey mate - I agree with Gabriel smile.gif I am using a totally different beast here - an AMT SS20, boosted with a Suhr Shiba Drive. But high frequencies are missing so, I would try to get more of those and see what happens next. I will not discuss on the lesson at this point - unless you want me to, of course smile.gif


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Socky42
post Apr 22 2014, 06:37 PM
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Instead of using the emulated output (I assume that just means speaker simulation?), you could try taking the raw signal into your computer then processing it with third party speaker IRs. So you're not just stuck with that one 'cab' type.



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Darius Wave
post Apr 22 2014, 10:28 PM
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Emulated outs are ok - very comfortable but they are usually far from the tone of microphone recording. Your tone on amp looks different than what we hear. I'm not sure about the function of "isf" knob but I consider it beoing sort of HPF or contour knob (?)
Somewhere here is the huge cut of treble You need to get rid of. Just in case...Don't adjust the tone listening to a cabinet if You plan to record line out. We hear different relaying to different volume level, The more volume the more highs we cut to feel comfortable. Unfortunately this is exact opposite of what is good for recording.


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SpaseMoonkey
post Apr 22 2014, 11:11 PM
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ISF Knob - is kinda like the shape knob on an Orange Amp. So that can blend it weird and spike certain tones for the EQ.
Strings/Pickups - Doubt this is the issue, EMGs are typically good for low tunings, I've never had a problem and I play in C-Standard

IR Cabs, now this may be something to look into as it does change the whole game. You can find all sorts of cabs with
tons of different speakers so you can get different tones, you can also mix and match them as you would a cabinet.

This is what I use to use when I tried VSTs on the PC. Which unfortunately Presonus doesn't like to give a direct guitar line in to record.
So it sounded really bad in the end as I would spike the meter very easily.
http://lepouplugins.blogspot.com/2009/07/lecab-v10.html


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Darius Wave
post Apr 23 2014, 10:38 AM
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Dave....could You make a very short sample of ISF range? Please set all eq knobs to 12 o 'clock and record 3 samples of the same riff

1. ISF = 0
2. ISF = 50%
3 ISF = 100%

I doubt that people who makes rock/metal amps added such a dark cabinet simulation to this amp.

BTW...I hope You didn't use any additional amp sim, cab sim from the DAW? It would be double filtering then and THIS COULD casue exactly what we hear


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Cosmin Lupu
post Apr 24 2014, 07:53 AM
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Good spot by Darius - if you record with the amp, let it be the amp only smile.gif But let's see the differences dictated by the setting suggestions Darius mentioned


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SeeJay
post May 12 2014, 08:32 PM
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What kind of guitar are you using? Just sounds like you're not getting the cut from the guitar that you need.


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dcz702
post May 12 2014, 10:59 PM
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QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Apr 22 2014, 09:28 PM) *
I'm not sure about the function of "isf" knob but I consider it beoing sort of HPF or contour knob (?)

Somewhere here is the huge cut of treble You need to get rid of. Just in case...Don't adjust the tone listening to a cabinet if You plan to record line out. We hear different relaying to different volume level, The more volume the more highs we cut to feel comfortable. Unfortunately this is exact opposite of what is good for recording.

Hey guys forgot I posted this. When I did for a couple of days I racked my brain and did a lot of expramenting with making the sound better.
Darius. The isf knob is supposed to let you go from American tones to Brit tones and inbetween. And as for the more volume the more highs you cut, I experimented with the line out and volume on the amp and found it better to keep the volume down on the amp and adjust the volume on my interface right before it clips, then adjust the mixer in my daw to match. If you listened to my rec take I submitted, this is how I recorded it. Then I turned on the eq did a low cut 30hz and increased the highs just a bit to get as close to cosmins tones as I could hear.

QUOTE (SeeJay @ May 12 2014, 07:32 PM) *
What kind of guitar are you using? Just sounds like you're not getting the cut from the guitar that you need.

im using a prs se toreno with emgs, sounds completly differnt through me mesa boogie, i used a blackstar for this recording

QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Apr 23 2014, 09:38 AM) *
Dave....could You make a very short sample of ISF range? Please set all eq knobs to 12 o 'clock and record 3 samples of the same riff

1. ISF = 0
2. ISF = 50%
3 ISF = 100%

I doubt that people who makes rock/metal amps added such a dark cabinet simulation to this amp.

BTW...I hope You didn't use any additional amp sim, cab sim from the DAW? It would be double filtering then and THIS COULD casue exactly what we hear

will do darius, i like to mic my mesa, but i use my blackstar for recording mostly cause its very easy and convienant. will make these three clips tonight

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Apr 22 2014, 02:23 PM) *
Comparing your sound with Cosmin's I note that the main difference is your tone needs more treble (around 3000 HZ or 5000 HZ). The difference in sound can also be achieved moving the mic, are you using a mic to record your guitar?

Check how important the change can be:


ive been experamnting with eq and begining to understand, like socky said im using speaker simulation from my amps output right into my interface, but i would rather mic up my mesa just dont like moving it around all the time. i didnt use additional amp sim in the daw, what i recorded is right from them amp unaltered. but in my rec take i messed with the eq, the photo at the bottom are the small changes i made to the eq

This post has been edited by dcz702: May 12 2014, 11:04 PM
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dcz702
post May 13 2014, 01:52 AM
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so here are the 3 takes ISF at 0 then noon then max. all eq on amp at noon, volume at 11, gain at 3 o'clock https://soundcloud.com/rockmusic-915/blackstar-isf-setting
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Cosmin Lupu
post May 13 2014, 08:11 AM
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Judging by the pure sound - I would say that the first one is the best - the more ISF you dial in, the darker the tone. I think it actually lacks brightness somehow..


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Todd Simpson
post May 15 2014, 08:51 PM
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Your eq curve shows that you are trying to putt treble back in after recording. Usually, you'd be cutting a bit in that range with your amp set for a metal tone. Are you using an overdrive before your amp? If not, grab an overdrive, even a cheap 35 dollar joyo will do the trick. It will focus the tone more toward the upper range and you can use the tone knob on it before the signal gets to the amp. Also, as you are getting ready to record, go over to the amp with your headphones and PUT YOUR AMP IN STANDBY so you are not fooled by the sound coming out of the cab. Then you can tweak your eq so that it sounds better in your headphones.

Also, this assumes you are NOT using EAR BUDS when tracking and mixing.
If you are using crap headphones or monitors/speakers, then you won't really know what you've recorded and you can't mix properly sad.gif What are you using for headphones?



QUOTE (dcz702 @ May 12 2014, 08:52 PM) *
so here are the 3 takes ISF at 0 then noon then max. all eq on amp at noon, volume at 11, gain at 3 o'clock https://soundcloud.com/rockmusic-915/blackstar-isf-setting


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SirJamsalot
post May 15 2014, 09:26 PM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Apr 22 2014, 09:12 AM) *
Hey mate - I agree with Gabriel smile.gif I am using a totally different beast here - an AMT SS20, boosted with a Suhr Shiba Drive. But high frequencies are missing so, I would try to get more of those and see what happens next. I will not discuss on the lesson at this point - unless you want me to, of course smile.gif


Cosmin, in your lesson here:
https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Tesseract-Style/

Tuning: Drop A - A E A D F# B

Seems like the enxtended scale length of the Baritone Guitar is what would retain the organic sound. Thoughts on this?


Tone settings:

- Riff: AMT SS20 Lead Channel, having the Bass at 12 O'clock, the Mids at 10 and the Highs at 3 O'clock, while the gain is somewhere around 11 O'clock.
- Clean: AMT SS20 Clean Channel, having the Bass at 11 O'clock, the Mids at 9 and the Highs at 12 O'clock, while the gain is somewhere around 2 O'clock.

Effects:

- DAW added reverb/delay over the Part 4 and 5 sections (Variverb pluggin)
- Suhr Shiba Drive for boosting the tone in all the riff sections

Thanks,
Chris


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dcz702
post May 16 2014, 05:46 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ May 15 2014, 07:51 PM) *
Your eq curve shows that you are trying to putt treble back in after recording. Usually, you'd be cutting a bit in that range with your amp set for a metal tone. Are you using an overdrive before your amp? If not, grab an overdrive, even a cheap 35 dollar joyo will do the trick. It will focus the tone more toward the upper range and you can use the tone knob on it before the signal gets to the amp. Also, as you are getting ready to record, go over to the amp with your headphones and PUT YOUR AMP IN STANDBY so you are not fooled by the sound coming out of the cab. Then you can tweak your eq so that it sounds better in your headphones.

Also, this assumes you are NOT using EAR BUDS when tracking and mixing.
If you are using crap headphones or monitors/speakers, then you won't really know what you've recorded and you can't mix properly sad.gif What are you using for headphones?

my blackstar ht20 lets me plug right into the back of the amp from my audio interface, and turn down the master volume on the amp, that way there is no sound from the cab, and adjust the separate channel volume wich is only increases volume through my studio monitors as long as master volume is all the way down. This is how I always record.
I didn't use a overdrive, just the gain channel with gain turned up real high. I don't really understand how to use the eq, Don't know what the different hz mean, I want to understand it. When I mess with it i just adjust certain parts of the waveform and see what it does. Then I just shut my eyes and adjust till it sounds better to my ears, but really have no idea what I'm doing.
I will try using my overdrive when a song requires higher gain, I have a new overdrive that should be here tomorrow and I'm excited to see what I will do for my tone, it has separate bass and treble eq on the pedal instead of the typical tone knob, the bass and treble eq really sparked my interest in the pedal so maybe that will help a lot getting sounds I'm looking for.
Do you use overdrives a lot with a already high gain amp chanel?
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Cosmin Lupu
post May 16 2014, 07:55 AM
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Hey mate - when you say 'retain' you mean that the guitar is actually responsible for the natural sound of low frequencies, am I correct?

QUOTE (SirJamsalot @ May 15 2014, 08:26 PM) *
Cosmin, in your lesson here:
https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Tesseract-Style/

Tuning: Drop A - A E A D F# B

Seems like the enxtended scale length of the Baritone Guitar is what would retain the organic sound. Thoughts on this?


Tone settings:

- Riff: AMT SS20 Lead Channel, having the Bass at 12 O'clock, the Mids at 10 and the Highs at 3 O'clock, while the gain is somewhere around 11 O'clock.
- Clean: AMT SS20 Clean Channel, having the Bass at 11 O'clock, the Mids at 9 and the Highs at 12 O'clock, while the gain is somewhere around 2 O'clock.

Effects:

- DAW added reverb/delay over the Part 4 and 5 sections (Variverb pluggin)
- Suhr Shiba Drive for boosting the tone in all the riff sections

Thanks,
Chris



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SirJamsalot
post May 17 2014, 12:25 AM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ May 15 2014, 11:55 PM) *
Hey mate - when you say 'retain' you mean that the guitar is actually responsible for the natural sound of low frequencies, am I correct?


Well, I'm asking if you think that is the case. From what I've read, the extended scale length allows you to retain much of the string tension while playing lower - it's that tension that gives the organic feel to the note you're playing, or at least I would suspect. I mean if you drop - A a standard guitar, the strings will wobble smile.gif



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dcz702
post May 17 2014, 01:22 AM
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QUOTE (SirJamsalot @ May 16 2014, 11:25 PM) *
Well, I'm asking if you think that is the case. From what I've read, the extended scale length allows you to retain much of the string tension while playing lower - it's that tension that gives the organic feel to the note you're playing, or at least I would suspect. I mean if you drop - A a standard guitar, the strings will wobble smile.gif

Never played that low. I'm pretty new to drop tunings myself. I purchased a new guitar just to have it in drop c all the time.
When you say organic feel, do you mean the deep low end your hearing? If so, when playing in drop tunings you need to use heavy gauge strings and I've noticed when using these heavy string you get a real growl and some low end with lots of sustain, and it sounds awesome if you like hard and heavy. it's better to use a guitar with a longer scale to accommodate the tension using high gauge strings create. DropA I'm sure would be best on a baritone guitar, never played that low. In drop c I use 52-11 and I wouldn't try to string a guitar like a les Paul with them cause of the shorter scale. Really I'm new to this to but this is what I've gathered from playing In dropC.
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Cosmin Lupu
post May 17 2014, 08:08 AM
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Hey mates - I think yeah, the answer is yes out of what I figured out so far - the natural tone and build of that guitar creates the organic low sound. That's what a baritone was meant to be and we are exploiting it accordingly in Days of Confusion.

Our last single - Bloodstream, was recorded by using two baritone guitars having the B standard tuning with the thickest string dropped to G - for that, we used 12-68 Elixir baritone strings, replacing the thickest one with 0.74 Rotosound 8 string set piece smile.gif

In that way, the G sounded mean and growling and we are most likely going to experiment a lot with this tuning on our next album biggrin.gif


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Todd Simpson
post May 20 2014, 07:11 PM
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YES smile.gif

It's an old trick, but a good one smile.gif Wads of folks use an overdrive before their high gain head. It let's you get meaner tone at lower settings and gives you a bit of tone control as well since you can manipulate the tone before the head.

Can you shoot a close up of your EQ section? Just as a quick guide,

100 hz through 300 hz is bassy/deep

1.2 k (1,200 hz) is upper mid rangey

5k (5,000 hz) is bitey/trebley






QUOTE (dcz702 @ May 16 2014, 12:46 AM) *
my blackstar ht20 lets me plug right into the back of the amp from my audio interface, and turn down the master volume on the amp, that way there is no sound from the cab, and adjust the separate channel volume wich is only increases volume through my studio monitors as long as master volume is all the way down. This is how I always record.
I didn't use a overdrive, just the gain channel with gain turned up real high. I don't really understand how to use the eq, Don't know what the different hz mean, I want to understand it. When I mess with it i just adjust certain parts of the waveform and see what it does. Then I just shut my eyes and adjust till it sounds better to my ears, but really have no idea what I'm doing.
I will try using my overdrive when a song requires higher gain, I have a new overdrive that should be here tomorrow and I'm excited to see what I will do for my tone, it has separate bass and treble eq on the pedal instead of the typical tone knob, the bass and treble eq really sparked my interest in the pedal so maybe that will help a lot getting sounds I'm looking for.
Do you use overdrives a lot with a already high gain amp chanel?


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