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> Lydian, modes
enlo22
post Jun 6 2014, 08:27 PM
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So I understand now that about the modes and how they work but there's still certain parts I'm confused about. I know that if you're playing in C major, you can play F lydian. I play the F major scale over a C major chord, it gives me lydian? BUT I don't understand how in some videos I see something about a sharp 4th, which I'm confused about... because when I play F major over C major chord, the shape of the the f major doesn't have a sharp 4? sorry I hope I made sense lol


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Huargo
post Jun 6 2014, 11:33 PM
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Nop
you can play a cmajor scale over a F major and you have F lydian....
Cmajor scale starting in the 4 note it's a F lydian... hard to explain without a video.....



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klasaine
post Jun 6 2014, 11:44 PM
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Good question and easily confusing ...

F lydian is the same as C major (Ionian). It has the same notes but starting on F - F G A B C D E

If you want a Lydian 'sound' over C then you need to play the C lydian mode: C D E F# G A B *which you may notice is the same as a G major (ionian) scale.

This may help a bit ... https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...showtopic=48107


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jun 7 2014, 03:55 PM
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Klasaine clarified this perfectly. The only way to get the lydian sound over C maj chord is playing C Lydian: C D E F# G A B.




You are a bit confused about modes, so let us know if that thread shared by Klasaine clarifies it.


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Ben Higgins
post Jun 7 2014, 07:05 PM
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The guys have already explained it.

Regards to the sharp 4th... when you're playing the Lydian mode, you will be playing a sharp 4th (same as flat 5th).

But this applies to the key in which you're actually playing the Lydian mode in. If you're playing C Lydian for example, then you will play an F#, which is the 4th interval of that mode. That's the sharp 4th.




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enlo22
post Jun 8 2014, 02:28 AM
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yeah the postings did help. I understand the concept so if I play c major chord, then i just play c major with a raised 4? but someone was helping me and they said that if I play C major scale and there's an F major chord behind it would be lydian?? that's what's throwing me off, he said to learn thing harmonicly instead of in shapes so right now my brain is in a knot and i can't figure it out!


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Jim S.
post Jun 8 2014, 02:56 AM
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QUOTE (enlo22 @ Jun 7 2014, 09:28 PM) *
yeah the postings did help. I understand the concept so if I play c major chord, then i just play c major with a raised 4? but someone was helping me and they said that if I play C major scale and there's an F major chord behind it would be lydian?? that's what's throwing me off, he said to learn thing harmonicly instead of in shapes so right now my brain is in a knot and i can't figure it out!


Here is my take on it. In C maj each note has it's own unique quality of sound against C. If you start and end on each of those tones then you will have 7 different patterns having unique qualities because the tonality shifts in and out of maj/min/diminished ect. Example playing C to C you have big intervals M3 M7 but playing say B to B you don't have those intervals anymore. You have min3rd and dim7ths which makes a dark minor tonality.

As for F Lydian or playing f to f you have M3 and a #4 " meaning compared to the maj scale." So basically because of the way the notes are arranged 1 scale can have many different intervals that evoke a certain sound.

If your playing over a c maj chord and play f Lydian over it you would emphasize the #4 which is B. B is also the M7 of C. If you play f Lydian over F maj your just playing a #4 and it would have no other meaning.

F Lydian over Emin which is another chord in C maj. The #4 would be the natural 5 of e which would just add to the natural chord But F over E would evoke a ninth sound or Min 2nd.

So many configurations to choose from and some work better than others it's all about experimentation.
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jstcrsn
post Jun 8 2014, 03:06 AM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jun 7 2014, 03:55 PM) *
Klasaine clarified this perfectly. The only way to get the lydian sound over C maj chord is playing C Lydian: C D E F# G A B.




You are a bit confused about modes, so let us know if that thread shared by Klasaine clarifies it.

what other chords will/can we use to keep this in c lydian
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Jim S.
post Jun 8 2014, 03:25 AM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jun 7 2014, 10:06 PM) *
what other chords will/can we use to keep this in c lydian


You can use any chord in G maj to an extent. Amin Bmin Cmaj D7 Emin F#dim

But if you take the chord tones of C with the #4 you could easily play e min, f# dim which has every chord tone of c maj with c's #4, every chord in G maj is somehow connected to Cmaj7.
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Cosmin Lupu
post Jun 8 2014, 07:52 AM
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The best way to approach this, in my opinion is to understand modal theory thoroughly at first:

- how the modes are formed
- the characteristic scale degrees for each mode
- learn to hear the flavor of each mode, especially when playing the notes of that mode against chords
- learn to see modes as being structures based on the major and minor pentatonic scales
- the parallel and the derivative approach
- parallel - creating each mode from the same root - choose a root - C for instance, and apply the formula of each mode starting from C - observe the differences - minor modes versus major modes
- derivative - seeing each mode as being derived from a step of the natural major scale (the premisses you started the discussion on)
- understand the formula of each mode and the relationship with the chords it can be played on - major chords go well with major modes and minor modes go well with minor modes
- learn to harmonize each mode and tackle as many modal chord progressions as possible
- understand the idea in which you play using modes by following chord changes (a context in which a chord lasts longer and you have the time to deploy several modes over the same chord for instance)
- understand the idea in which you play key centered - you have a modal progression and you play using the same mode over the whole progression, maybe highlighting that mode's characteristic scale degree.

The discussion can go for miles, but in my opinion, these are the most important things to take into consideration smile.gif

Have you thought about these, or have you studied any of these aspects so far? Let the questions begin smile.gif


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Ben Higgins
post Jun 8 2014, 09:34 AM
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QUOTE (enlo22 @ Jun 8 2014, 02:28 AM) *
yeah the postings did help. I understand the concept so if I play c major chord, then i just play c major with a raised 4? but someone was helping me and they said that if I play C major scale and there's an F major chord behind it would be lydian?? that's what's throwing me off, he said to learn thing harmonicly instead of in shapes so right now my brain is in a knot and i can't figure it out!


Yes, taking a major scale and sharpening the 4th would make it Lydian. But I can see where you're getting confused.

What you were told is true... if you were to play the notes of the C Major scale over an F chord it could technically be called F Lydian. Both the F Lydian and C Major scales contain the same notes but the name of the scale/mode comes from what key you're starting from. You could also derive G Mixolydian from the same notes.

This is how modes are formed. Depending on what interval of a scale you start on, whether it be the 2nd, 3rd etc.. that gives you a new mode.

If you pick the C Major scale and play it starting from the note of C, you would think of it as the C Major scale. But if you then play the 2nd interval of the C Major scale ( a D note) and play through the same scale starting on the D and using that as your root note (and new key) then that gives you the D Dorian mode. If you kept going through and starting on each interval but playing through the same notes, you will get a new mode starting on each new interval.

However, this is just how modes are derived. In order to apply a particular mode to a particular key you still have to know the shapes for that mode and how it sounds.

So if you want to play with the Lydian mode, pick the key first.. for example, C. Then learn the C Lydian mode. Don't mix it up with other chords just yet.


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jun 8 2014, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE (enlo22 @ Jun 7 2014, 10:28 PM) *
yeah the postings did help. I understand the concept so if I play c major chord, then i just play c major with a raised 4? but someone was helping me and they said that if I play C major scale and there's an F major chord behind it would be lydian?? that's what's throwing me off, he said to learn thing harmonicly instead of in shapes so right now my brain is in a knot and i can't figure it out!


Ben clarified this. I recommend you to see the modes as they are called. It's clearer to play C Lydian, and think it as C Lydian to be able to visualize the root of the mode, the 3rd, the 5th, and even most important the #4 which is the characteristic note. This is the best way to get the most of the modes and their vibes. Check out Cosmin list where he shared many tips to practice modes.


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enlo22
post Jun 9 2014, 05:07 AM
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so it's starting to make sense, but I don't get how lol I watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMYUt-OmQLU
and I tried it and it's very lydian sounding, if he plays E major7 then a b minor scale it works perfect, is there a certain concept to that so I can apply it to other keys? cause so far this is what makes the most sense even though from E- B it's 5 steps up? so how is it the 4th mode??
sorry for dragging this out it's just still confusing to my brain lol


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klasaine
post Jun 9 2014, 07:14 AM
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1) When we say 'lydian' is the 4th mode what we mean is that if you're thinking the modes of the major scale ... ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, locrian - the lydian mode is the 4th mode from the PARENT major scale.

2) In the Vai lesson video he's using the E lydian scale/mode which is all the same notes as a B major scale: E F# G# A# B C# D#. *E lydian is the 4th mode of B major (the 'parent' major scale/key).

3) Forget about that wink.gif ohmy.gif Seriously, when you're trying to get a particular 'modal' sound (in this case lydian) know what an E lydian scale is - what notes make up the E lydian mode. Don't even worry (for now) about all the theory. Just try to get the sound of the mode.

4) It is very confusing if you don't have your plain old major scale harmony and theory down cold.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Jun 9 2014, 07:19 AM


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Cosmin Lupu
post Jun 9 2014, 08:18 AM
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QUOTE (enlo22 @ Jun 9 2014, 04:07 AM) *
so it's starting to make sense, but I don't get how lol I watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMYUt-OmQLU
and I tried it and it's very lydian sounding, if he plays E major7 then a b minor scale it works perfect, is there a certain concept to that so I can apply it to other keys? cause so far this is what makes the most sense even though from E- B it's 5 steps up? so how is it the 4th mode??
sorry for dragging this out it's just still confusing to my brain lol


Hey man smile.gif EM7 is E G# B D# - 1 3 5 7 normally, you could play E Lydian over it - that is E F# G# A# B C# D# E - that actually being a mode derived from the B MAJOR scale not the B minor. I just applied the Lydian formula having E as the root and knowing that the Lydian mode is the 4th mode for a certain major scale, I asked the following question: For what major scale is E a perfect 4th? B major of course smile.gif There ya go wink.gif

Hope it's clear smile.gif


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klasaine
post Jun 9 2014, 05:42 PM
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This may help ...

Attached Image

The first column has the 'modal' name sharing the same root.
The last column gives you the 'parent' major scale that the mode is derived from.

*Example: C dorian is a minor (type of) scale but all of it's notes are derived from the Bb major scale. So Bb is the parent major for C dorian.
C aeolian is also a minor scale (though slightly different than dorian) and all of it's notes come from the Eb major (parent) scale.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Jun 11 2014, 08:26 AM
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Great addition here by Ken smile.gif If you guys can have this table in mind, you won't have that much trouble knowing what modes come from where, but don't forget to also learn how to hear the modes so that you may get your ears acquainted to the sounds.


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klasaine
post Jun 11 2014, 04:30 PM
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Here's another good chart that gives you chords that define the precise modal 'sound'.
*At the bottom is second chord color (sus) for the fifth mode, mixolydian.

This chart relates nicely to what Cosmin just mentioned about knowing the sound of the mode.

Attached Image


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Cosmin Lupu
post Jun 12 2014, 08:28 AM
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Nice addition man! I think this thread is very likely to become a focal point on modal theory and tricks which would be very useful for everyone. Marco, how about you man? Is this stuff clearing up your questions? smile.gif


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enlo22
post Jun 12 2014, 11:17 PM
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so far I understand the whole if you play in c major and start with f you're in lydian? but honestly i dont get the steve vai video about starting in B, or where the f sharp comes from :/


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