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> Mary Friedman Declares Sweeps "lame"
Todd Simpson
post Jun 25 2014, 02:13 PM
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Here we go again smile.gif Not to say he doesn't make some valid points, because he does smile.gif Just a bit more of the "Pot calling the kettle black" syndrome. I expect his next interview will be about how he now finds all of Metal to be "lame" and he's going to start a Fusion/Polka band instead smile.gif

http://geargods.net/video/marty-friedman-d...-sweep-picking/

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This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jun 25 2014, 02:17 PM


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TeoWulf
post Jun 25 2014, 04:59 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jun 25 2014, 01:13 PM) *
Here we go again smile.gif Not to say he doesn't make some valid points, because he does smile.gif Just a bit more of the "Pot calling the kettle black" syndrome. I expect his next interview will be about how he now finds all of Metal to be "lame" and he's going to start a Fusion/Polka band instead smile.gif
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He is 100% right. Sweeppicking arpeggios up and down is no more than a trick, and it's actually very boring, because we've all heard it a thousand times already. And I'd rather listen to polka fusion than yet another metal project.
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Mertay
post Jun 25 2014, 06:26 PM
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Its a technique not only used on guitar, think piano or violin...



But what I noticed is its considered something pretty cool among beginners, like -DUDE CAN YOU DO SWEEP? biggrin.gif

Overly fast it does become a "woop" sound thats for sure but work hard and everything can sound like that smile.gif

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bleez
post Jun 25 2014, 06:51 PM
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huh.gif I feel like Ive just been scolded by Marty Friedman! Its a bit like Homer simpson telling you not to eat a dounut.
each to their own. Its a cool video but I'll still be in my bedroom for the next five years trying to play stuff as fast as possible cool.gif Just like Marty did smile.gif


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Ben Higgins
post Jun 25 2014, 06:57 PM
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I agree totally with the point Marty is making in the video. I think the accompanying press deliberately made his stance sound more confrontational (hey, it gets people talking about it) but what he means is it's just a technique to be incorporated into music, not to be repeated up/down for whole sections of songs.

I also try to incorporate arpeggios (notice that we should focus on the use of arpeggios, not the sweep techniques itself) into my solos as musically as possible. I'll use part of an arpeggio to link to another lick in pretty much the same way Marty demonstrates in the vid. In fact, it would have been Marty's playing that got me into playing in this sort of 'cascading' sort of way, tumbling over the beat and letting things flow instead of setting up a load of sweeps starting from point A and lasting precisely until point Z.

He's just telling people that they'd be doing themselves more of a service if they used sweeping musically, not to cut/past loads of sweep shapes and call it a solo.

And yes, Cacophony............ but to be fair it was mainly the harmonised melody sections that had sweep arpeggios sections because the neo classical thing was all the rage but their actual solos still mixed it up and his soloing back then was still indicative of his current beliefs about arpeggio use.


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Todd Simpson
post Jun 26 2014, 12:02 AM
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As I mentioned previously, I"m not saying he's not making valid points. To be clear, he IS making some valid points. My post was intended just to point out the reoccurring hypocrisy Mr. Friedman seems to be going through of late. As anyone who's heard his body of work can tell you, he's more than guilty of being a bit of a sweep/arpeggio/scale nut, especially in his cacophony days as well as on his Solo albums. smile.gif

You are on your own though as far as listening to polka fusion smile.gif

QUOTE (TeoWulf @ Jun 25 2014, 11:59 AM) *
He is 100% right. Sweeppicking arpeggios up and down is no more than a trick, and it's actually very boring, because we've all heard it a thousand times already. And I'd rather listen to polka fusion than yet another metal project.


Well said!! smile.gif It's something that many (NOT "ALL" OF COURSE, BUT MANY...) beginners become obsessed with. It's almost like a stepping stone/badge of honor on the way to becoming a skilled player smile.gif "Can you sweep yet?"

Personally, I avoided learning sweeps. I rarely use them. It is possible to use them well, and they are as valid a technique as any, I was just never that in to it and i've heard it done so much, and often so badly, that it sorta turned me off to it.

QUOTE (Mertay @ Jun 25 2014, 01:26 PM) *
Its a technique not only used on guitar, think piano or violin...



But what I noticed is its considered something pretty cool among beginners, like -DUDE CAN YOU DO SWEEP? biggrin.gif

Overly fast it does become a "woop" sound thats for sure but work hard and everything can sound like that smile.gif


BINGO!!! smile.gif My point exactly. Marty telling folks not to sweep is about like Marty telling folks not to play instrumental music (remember that from last time?)

QUOTE (bleez @ Jun 25 2014, 01:51 PM) *
huh.gif I feel like Ive just been scolded by Marty Friedman! Its a bit like Homer simpson telling you not to eat a dounut.
each to their own. Its a cool video but I'll still be in my bedroom for the next five years trying to play stuff as fast as possible cool.gif Just like Marty did smile.gif


I agree smile.gif But again, per my first post, I wasn't asserting that he isn't making valid points. He is making a valid point. My assertion was simply that Marty has become a bit of HUGE hypocrite of late.
Having listened to his early work, solo work, and band work, It's really hard not to notice the fact that he's used/abused/overused sweeps/arpeggios/scales to an INSANE degree. So to hear him essentially telling everyone else to spare him and skip all that, again smacks of when he told people to stop playing instrumental music wink.gif

QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Jun 25 2014, 01:57 PM) *
I agree totally with the point Marty is making in the video. I think the accompanying press deliberately made his stance sound more confrontational (hey, it gets people talking about it) but what he means is it's just a technique to be incorporated into music, not to be repeated up/down for whole sections of songs.

I also try to incorporate arpeggios (notice that we should focus on the use of arpeggios, not the sweep techniques itself) into my solos as musically as possible. I'll use part of an arpeggio to link to another lick in pretty much the same way Marty demonstrates in the vid. In fact, it would have been Marty's playing that got me into playing in this sort of 'cascading' sort of way, tumbling over the beat and letting things flow instead of setting up a load of sweeps starting from point A and lasting precisely until point Z.

He's just telling people that they'd be doing themselves more of a service if they used sweeping musically, not to cut/past loads of sweep shapes and call it a solo.

And yes, Cacophony............ but to be fair it was mainly the harmonised melody sections that had sweep arpeggios sections because the neo classical thing was all the rage but their actual solos still mixed it up and his soloing back then was still indicative of his current beliefs about arpeggio use.


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jun 26 2014, 12:05 AM


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jstcrsn
post Jun 26 2014, 01:25 AM
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and next he will say Paul Gilbert doesn't pick correctly
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PosterBoy
post Jun 26 2014, 07:49 AM
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When did Marty start playing PRS, did I miss the announcement?


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Ben Higgins
post Jun 26 2014, 08:44 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jun 26 2014, 12:02 AM) *
Marty telling folks not to sweep is about like Marty telling folks not to play instrumental music (remember that from last time?)


I didn't get that from this video, maybe I blanked it out. rolleyes.gif But I don't think Marty is telling people not to sweep (because he is clearly using economy picking / sweeping to play those short examples) he is telling people not to overuse it in a boring up/down/up/down way.

Just running through arpeggios from top to bottom is not as musical as using them as part of a phrase. That was the ultimate point he was getting to. Maybe he laid it on a bit thick to get his point across but it gets people listening and I still agree with him.

So, to try and clarify, he's not calling sweep picking 'lame', he's calling what many people do with sweep picking 'lame'.

Just like I wouldn't call alternate picking 'lame', but I would call overusing alternate picking and playing nothing but scalar runs 'lame.' But then, next thing you know I'm being quoted out of context as saying that 'ALTERNATE PICKING IS LAME - DON'T USE IT' which is not accurate.

I do think you have a point with his previous remark about instrumental music maybe but on this occasion I think he's being portrayed as saying something that he isn't.

This post has been edited by Ben Higgins: Jun 26 2014, 08:47 AM


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Mertay
post Jun 26 2014, 08:51 AM
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QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Jun 26 2014, 12:25 AM) *
and next he will say Paul Gilbert doesn't pick correctly


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Todd Simpson
post Jun 26 2014, 01:28 PM
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Very true smile.gif he's saying what most people do with it is a bit lame. smile.gif

I gotta again point out though, the pot calling the kettle black. Per his instructional vid which I included, as well has wads of solos on his solo albums, not to mention his work in Cacophony and Megadeth, he's been the guilty party in terms of using the very approach he's condemning so often that it just smacks of hypocrisy IMHO sad.gif Thus my original post.

The other bit I mentioned is from a previous interview that got wads of press where he said that players should avoid making instrumental music. In the same breath, he promoted his new instrumental album.

I appreciate Marty as a player. I just don't appreciate his recent "do as I say not as I do" approach. sad.gif Thus calling him out on it.





QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Jun 26 2014, 03:44 AM) *
I didn't get that from this video, maybe I blanked it out. rolleyes.gif But I don't think Marty is telling people not to sweep (because he is clearly using economy picking / sweeping to play those short examples) he is telling people not to overuse it in a boring up/down/up/down way.

Just running through arpeggios from top to bottom is not as musical as using them as part of a phrase. That was the ultimate point he was getting to. Maybe he laid it on a bit thick to get his point across but it gets people listening and I still agree with him.

So, to try and clarify, he's not calling sweep picking 'lame', he's calling what many people do with sweep picking 'lame'.

Just like I wouldn't call alternate picking 'lame', but I would call overusing alternate picking and playing nothing but scalar runs 'lame.' But then, next thing you know I'm being quoted out of context as saying that 'ALTERNATE PICKING IS LAME - DON'T USE IT' which is not accurate.

I do think you have a point with his previous remark about instrumental music maybe but on this occasion I think he's being portrayed as saying something that he isn't.



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wrk
post Jun 26 2014, 02:30 PM
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Marty always was an unconventional player and these straight up/down high speed sweep arpeggios is not what he is particularly know for. Of course if you search you will find within his lifetime repertoire, but it’s far away of being “used/abused/overused .. to an INSANE degree”.

Even if so, if everything what people say/do throughout life has to be coherent, without the right to evolve and think/act differently today or simply adapt to todays standard .. then everything and everybody is hypocrite.

Btw, moderate words are preferably used in any discussion, if it's supposed to be a discussion(?) .. feels a tiny bit like bashing actually. Especially when harsh words are repeatedly used multiple times against the same person. I don’t understand what are your intentions of doing so?

So yeah, here we go again .. wink.gif


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Ben Higgins
post Jun 26 2014, 04:51 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jun 26 2014, 01:28 PM) *
I appreciate Marty as a player. I just don't appreciate his recent "do as I say not as I do" approach. sad.gif Thus calling him out on it.


I don't mind T-Master, you don't have to defend your opinions to me.. these discussions are fun ! smile.gif



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klasaine
post Jun 26 2014, 06:00 PM
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I like Marty Friedman.
I don't dig his music but I like him. He doesn't censor himself too much. He's just talking. He doesn't care what a bunch of guitar players think about his comments and he doesn't 'draft' every answer so that folks feelings don't get hurt. Too many artists censor themselves so much that they have virtually zero personality in an interview and never really say anything about anything - everything is awesome, everything is great. No! Give me Ginger Baker any day!
I don't really like Bruce Springsteen much but I never miss an interview - he's got great insights and is very entertaining in print and in person.

Like with the 'don't do instrumental music' quote, so it goes with sweeping ...
If you're gonna do it, think hard about exactly what it is that you're trying to accomplish musically with the technique (or genre) - ?

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Todd Simpson
post Jun 26 2014, 09:05 PM
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I'm a big fan of his playing so I gotta say I stand behind my statement of him abusing the very thing he's talking about. I've listened to every album he's played on and yes he's quite guilty of it. But he admits in another interview that he is basically a hypocrite so at least he admits it smile.gif

Also, not saying he doesn't have the right to say whatever he wants, he has every right smile.gif Just calling it like I see it. Not trying to bash, just saying my bit smile.gif To all those who are fans of Marty as a player or person, please do not take offense.

After all, this is just a post in a forum. The good news is that it's doing what forum posts should do, generating response/interest smile.gif

QUOTE (wrk @ Jun 26 2014, 09:30 AM) *
Marty always was an unconventional player and these straight up/down high speed sweep arpeggios is not what he is particularly know for. Of course if you search you will find within his lifetime repertoire, but it’s far away of being “used/abused/overused .. to an INSANE degree”.

Even if so, if everything what people say/do throughout life has to be coherent, without the right to evolve and think/act differently today or simply adapt to todays standard .. then everything and everybody is hypocrite.

Btw, moderate words are preferably used in any discussion, if it's supposed to be a discussion(?) .. feels a tiny bit like bashing actually. Especially when harsh words are repeatedly used multiple times against the same person. I don’t understand what are your intentions of doing so?

So yeah, here we go again .. wink.gif


Well said smile.gif I think you should work in PR, maybe for Marty smile.gif I agree all the way that the best take away from all this is to be thoughtful when approaching writing/playing.


QUOTE (klasaine @ Jun 26 2014, 01:00 PM) *
I like Marty Friedman.
I don't dig his music but I like him. He doesn't censor himself too much. He's just talking. He doesn't care what a bunch of guitar players think about his comments and he doesn't 'draft' every answer so that folks feelings don't get hurt. Too many artists censor themselves so much that they have virtually zero personality in an interview and never really say anything about anything - everything is awesome, everything is great. No! Give me Ginger Baker any day!
I don't really like Bruce Springsteen much but I never miss an interview - he's got great insights and is very entertaining in print and in person.

Like with the 'don't do instrumental music' quote, so it goes with sweeping ...
If you're gonna do it, think hard about exactly what it is that you're trying to accomplish musically with the technique (or genre) - ?


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Jun 26 2014, 09:21 PM


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wrk
post Jun 27 2014, 11:52 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jun 26 2014, 10:05 PM) *
I'm a big fan of his playing so I gotta say I stand behind my statement of him abusing the very thing he's talking about. I've listened to every album he's played on and yes he's quite guilty of it. But he admits in another interview that he is basically a hypocrite so at least he admits it smile.gif

Also, not saying he doesn't have the right to say whatever he wants, he has every right smile.gif Just calling it like I see it. Not trying to bash, just saying my bit smile.gif To all those who are fans of Marty as a player or person, please do not take offense.

After all, this is just a post in a forum. The good news is that it's doing what forum posts should do, generating response/interest smile.gif


Well, all right then .. it’s just not in my nature to go hard on the person himself when i don’t agree with what he say.

I guess this is one of the interviews where you base your hypocrite theory on:

http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/marty-fri...im-a-hypocrite/

I still think he has valid points to say what he said. To take the hypocrite sentence out of the context and apply it wherever it fits isn’t convincing IMO.



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jstcrsn
post Jun 27 2014, 12:00 PM
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to say any style, any learned technique, any developed skill is irrelevant is a little on the foolish side .
Almost like discrediting one style of music cause its not your cup of tea , especially when Becker used to use it alot, and quite honestly I really never seen Marty ( as good and influential as he is)use it. Kinda like a young guitar player who hasn't mastered it yet, so he bashes it.

Everything is good in it's place in the proper context( Not saying I am capable of doing that dry.gif )
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klasaine
post Jun 27 2014, 12:16 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jun 26 2014, 01:05 PM) *
Well said smile.gif I think you should work in PR, maybe for Marty smile.gif I agree all the way that the best take away from all this is to be thoughtful when approaching writing/playing.

That may actually be his clumsy attempt at saying just that ...
"If you absolutely must play inst music and you must sweep - regardless of what I say - then go for it".

Which is not an unheard of teaching method. Its pretty old school and doesn't work with everybody but it can be an effective pedagogical technique.


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Todd Simpson
post Jun 27 2014, 05:33 PM
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Yup!!! That's the interview indeed smile.gif Good find!! I also agree that he is making valid points and that people often overuse/abuse sweeps, just as they might do with alt picking, (been guilty of that myself) and other bits.

Some very spirited discussion in this thread btw which is always welcome smile.gif

Todd

QUOTE (wrk @ Jun 27 2014, 06:52 AM) *
Well, all right then .. it’s just not in my nature to go hard on the person himself when i don’t agree with what he say.

I guess this is one of the interviews where you base your hypocrite theory on:

http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/marty-fri...im-a-hypocrite/

I still think he has valid points to say what he said. To take the hypocrite sentence out of the context and apply it wherever it fits isn’t convincing IMO.


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Ben Higgins
post Jun 27 2014, 07:37 PM
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I think a lot of the problem with not only this topic that Marty's brought up, but sweeping in general is:

People are identifying too much with the technique itself: sweeping

and not the musical application that sweeping is applied to, which is:

Arpeggios

A technique, in and of itself, can not be crap or lame. A technique is just a technique.

If guitarists forget the obsession with the damn technique used to play arpeggios and just think about how arpeggios can be used effectively then maybe they'll start thinking of other things instead of walls of BLOOOP, BLOOOOP, BLOOOOP, BLOOOOOP.

Regardless of whether Marty's guilty of a touch of hypocrisy the overall message he is now promoting is solid advice and I'd encourage anyone serious about composing to take it on board and try it out smile.gif



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