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> Which Skills A Guitarist Needs Nowadays To Make It
klasaine
post Jul 26 2014, 05:09 PM
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Great points on the 'aggregation' of cheap mics and VSTs.
One of the things I learned real quick (1999) was that a dig emulation/modeling is cool for one or maybe two tracks but you gotta use a real amp and recording space (even it's just a tiny iso room with one mid-quality microphone) along with the models and VSTs if you want to get any real emotional content (movement, funk, grease, R&R weirdness - whatever you want to call it) into the track.

You want to make it as a guitar player? Understand that ^^^. Figure out how to 'sell' that to an artist or producer by showing them how good it sounds and you'll get some work. Why do you think guys like Pete Thorn, Carl Verheyen and Tim Pierce, etc. (guys that get paid everyday to play and record guitar) have an actual 'rig' and microphone and hardware pre-amp set up in their home studios?
One of the reasons I have 23 guitars and probably 60 pedals is so that when I am relegated to only 'in the box' recording, I really take control of at least the sound at the source - me. I never go a session w/o one really funky axe (that's why I have those Teisco Del Reys and the Jazzmaster). Nothing says 'real' better than a freaky Japanese guitar from the 60s! *All this is assuming you know how to play.

* I'll add that I feel that one of the MAIN reasons why the average dude and dudette on the street doesn't really give a crap about music anymore is because most of it available sounds like shite. *Not the writing or the playing ... the SOUND. It's just generally not that compelling now. Both the overall production as well as the delivery.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Jul 26 2014, 05:54 PM


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Cosmin Lupu
post Jul 27 2014, 05:25 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Jul 26 2014, 04:09 PM) *
Great points on the 'aggregation' of cheap mics and VSTs.
One of the things I learned real quick (1999) was that a dig emulation/modeling is cool for one or maybe two tracks but you gotta use a real amp and recording space (even it's just a tiny iso room with one mid-quality microphone) along with the models and VSTs if you want to get any real emotional content (movement, funk, grease, R&R weirdness - whatever you want to call it) into the track.

You want to make it as a guitar player? Understand that ^^^. Figure out how to 'sell' that to an artist or producer by showing them how good it sounds and you'll get some work. Why do you think guys like Pete Thorn, Carl Verheyen and Tim Pierce, etc. (guys that get paid everyday to play and record guitar) have an actual 'rig' and microphone and hardware pre-amp set up in their home studios?
One of the reasons I have 23 guitars and probably 60 pedals is so that when I am relegated to only 'in the box' recording, I really take control of at least the sound at the source - me. I never go a session w/o one really funky axe (that's why I have those Teisco Del Reys and the Jazzmaster). Nothing says 'real' better than a freaky Japanese guitar from the 60s! *All this is assuming you know how to play.

* I'll add that I feel that one of the MAIN reasons why the average dude and dudette on the street doesn't really give a crap about music anymore is because most of it available sounds like shite. *Not the writing or the playing ... the SOUND. It's just generally not that compelling now. Both the overall production as well as the delivery.


True words from a true pro smile.gif Well, when you are in the field so far as you have been, all this insight is clearly valuable and you prove as an example for our members who wonder what being a pro really means smile.gif

You have always provided an honest and no BS opinion on things - respect! I appreciate that very much wink.gif

I think we can count the folks who think and act like you do in the field in our country on the fingers of ONE of my hands..

QUOTE (tonymiro @ Jul 26 2014, 01:32 PM) *
Cosmin - rightly or not the course offered by SAE and their like aren't particularly respected by pro studios. The students just don't get anything like enough hands on studio time and far too often lack basic skills. At best I'd see someone who had been to SAE or a similar institution as just starting a proper studio apprenticeship. I know manypro engineers however who wouldn't even give them the time of day.

I agree about low cost with good quality - that's what i set my stall at - offering an effectiv and efficient mastering solution. There's always however a minimum charge below which one can not go or you just don't break even. My breakeven is based on things like facility and service costs - things like electricity, internet, business rates, accountant fees, social security and taxes. I charge very marginally above that so that I can have a wage and also so that I can reinvest in and maintain equipment etc.

Where do I see things going?

Sadly I think we're going to lose an awful lot of studio facilities, experience and knowledge in the industry. What we'll end up with is a small number of large multi-room studios owned by major labels and/or digital aggregators. The latter will get a lot of digital mixing/mastering business from indie groups and charge what they want for so-so quality work simply as there will be a lack of competition. You can already see this happening with the 'in-house' mastering offered by digital (re)sellers/aggregators the mastering is really so-so These 'in-house' studios often treat non major names as over night cookie cutter work - so all the music is processed the same way via templates. Worst still they very often aren't even checked or verified before it goes to the pressing plant/put up on-line - I know of instances where work has been screwed by incorrect SRs because of this. One big 'in-house' spent months/years embedding incorrect and useless ISRCs in to a huge number of indie releases. Iif a band/label isn't happy though they have little, if any, redress as they are not the studio's client - the (re)seller is.

If you use an independent studio however your contract is direct with the studio. I provide revisions so that the client gets a product that they are happy with. I never cookie cut/use templates and I always listen, verify and check audio etc before I do anything. I very often let a band send remixes but don't charge any extra even though I should as a remix is usually regarded as additional/new work. I provide free help, advice, mix feedback whether or not a band uses my studio. If I screw up an ISRC etc I correct at my cost. All of that helps provide an effective service and is value added. More often than not though all that bands want is the cheapest solution and you get what you pay for.

You could say that major labels have always funnelled new talent towards their pet studios ona 360 contract. That's true in part but in the past the band still had some say and some redress about the quality of what came out of the studio. Now however...

So for all of you indie musicians, producers and labels your future will be a couple of large multis who will charge for indifferent work or DIY at home without the facilities and with limited skills. Most people won't care as they won't ever realise what's gone.

Is there a solution?
Yes.

Accept and budget for proper, professional recording/mixing and mastering. Bands seem happy to pay a graphic artist to do their cover art/tshirts and a video crew and post to film their music vid etc but then don't want to pay for professional recording/mixing/mastering. To me that is asinine as they are actually paying out on secondary things whilst skimping on what should be seen as important. Which is more important in the medium/long term - having a great looking album cover but a record that sounds crap or an ok one but with good/high quality audio? It's your choice. Use the independent pro studios or you will lose us.


We might be an isolated case, but we are usually looking forward to have the whole package and we have spent A LOT of money out of our pockets just to know that we have done whatever needed to be done, in order to:

- sound good
- look good
- gig comfortably
- be efficient in our logistics
- have the merch at the highest available quality

Of course, everything changes from one album to another, but we aim for the same things in the future smile.gif

Regarding the labels ... we were offered a contract with Universal, but guess what, we had to pay for the production of the album - they only pay for multiplying it in physical copies and that ties us up for a 3 year contract. Very bad - I said no almost immediately biggrin.gif

They basically give you nothing and want pretty much everything smile.gif

Unfortunately, I don't see a way out, by the looks of things...


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klasaine
post Jul 27 2014, 06:20 PM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Jul 27 2014, 09:25 AM) *
Regarding the labels ... we were offered a contract with Universal, but guess what, we had to pay for the production of the album - they only pay for multiplying it in physical copies and that ties us up for a 3 year contract. Very bad - I said no almost immediately biggrin.gif

They basically give you nothing and want pretty much everything smile.gif

Unfortunately, I don't see a way out, by the looks of things...


The 'distribution' deal.

That's always been an option with labels (especially indie labels). In fact, a lot of bands did and do seek that type of deal because they want complete control over the recording process (studio, producer, concept, etc.). Though that can go horribly wrong if the rec co (and they do - a lot) reject the master (the finished product) and now you're locked into your 2 or 3 year contract. *There are lots of ways around this during the contract negotiating period (write a 'sunset clause' for unreleased/undistributed product - totally normal though the rec co won't tell you that).

This is another thing that IMO is a casualty of the modern 'home recording' Renaissance (read; dark ages).
Band says, "oh yeah, we can make records at home for $1000 - so F off big labels".
The big labels say, "Awesome!, ya'll can make your records at home. Make us a record and we'll just distribute it ... *if we think it's good enough(?). If not - no dice. Less cash outlay for us. Oh and hey, that [i]master we just turned down - well it's actually ours for a few years"[/i]. Unless you wrote that 'sunset clause'(?).
BOTH sides of this attitude are ignorant and very short sighted, resulting in a lot of really mediocre sounding music.

Ultimately the band/artist ALWAYS pays for all the production costs of it's record, videos, etc. You either pay up front or you pay later out of your royalties. And now with the popularity of the 360 deal - concert tour money and even merchandise.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Jul 28 2014, 03:47 AM


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Mith
post Jul 28 2014, 06:32 AM
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Some really good information. Tho I agree with 99% of it. The amp moddling thing is a bit of a sore spot for me. cheap amp moddling is the same as a cheap amp but great high end moddling is a whole diffrent beast. But hey diffrent strokes for diffrent folks.

I think the major label got to big for itself and asking for too much money and exspecting too much from artists and thats where the home recording became a huge market. I think the market for pro studios will come back one day but I think that day is long on the horizon and I think it might end up being alot more digital and the real money being spent on room treatment and speakers.

Studios will end up more like botuique guitars. Might take a while to find a good one but when you find one that works well for you as an artist its amazing.

I just think there are alot of people behind the scenes in the music idustry making too much money for doing very little. I find it very hard to belive that there isn't someone making a discusting amount of money for selling a $30k compressor no matter how good it is. Is it the best one. It just might well be but for parts, labour and reserch some price tags are just stupid.


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Jul 28 2014, 11:17 AM
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Very true Ken.

Labels prefer in-house as it provides them complete control over cashflow and profit via internal cost transfer pricing.
A lot of recent poor commercial releases sound quality wise have been recorded/mxed and mastered in-house. It's almost as if they apply a lower quality standard when they do it themselves - ooo there's a surprise!

In 20-30 years ago when we come full circle and bands want to have their stuff recorded/mixed/mastered professionally I wonder where they will find the experienced engineers. Way things are I'd say in 5 years I wonder where...

-------------

Mastering hardware tends to be the most expensive hardware to buy new. The vast majoirty of pro end mastering grade comps are @£3000-5000 new. There are a couple from, for instance, Elysia that cost nearly £9000 but I'm not aware of any that are in the £30k band.

The vast majority of pro end mastering hardware is handmade and/or very short production runs by small engineering companies. They use high end components where a single indented rotary knob will cost them significantly more than the non-indented flimsy crap on prosumer gear. They also use a much higher level QA procedure than the mass market companies, which again costs considerably more. I'm not aware of any of them making vast amounts of money - just the opposite.

The market for mastering hardware is actually incredibly small and the profits slim. I know the sole owner at Gyraf and quite a few others and their annual production runs for a piece often barely exceed single figures. I know a few who only make to order and never make more than 10 untis a year. Sontec who are considered by a lot of mastering engineers as having produced one of the best mastering EQs nearly went bankrupt. It's a two person operation and just survived because of remortgaging. Nowadays they only produce individual units to order and the lead times are often around 6-18 months.. If you ring up Great River you can talk to the owner becuase it's not some big multinational. The same is true of pretty much all of these engineering companies.

The same can be said to a lesser extent for mixing, at least with regards to a pro end desk/console. It takes a lot of time and expertise and high end components to build a Neve 8080 or an SSL 9000. The vast majority are built to order and customised. The manufacturer nearly always does installation, set up and testing. The cost and risks involved in designing and bringing to market a new console is huge and can easily break a company. If you ever go on a factory visit to Prism, ATC, AMS Neve, SSL etc you'll find that the people who work there and own the companies aren't rich.


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Jul 28 2014, 12:01 PM
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And on the subject of how much money we make...

I've mastered records that have gone gold, platinum etc. My daughter told me earlier today that a recent one of mine was in the top 5 of the download charts for over 4 weeks. I charged the same set price as I do for all the others. In the case of the download single that was 40 Euros plus IVA.

I 've been in sound for over 30 years and know how difficult it can be to make a living in this business, whether you're a musician or an engineer. I don't question or begrudge how much musicians earn or how succesful they are. Sadly the same professional courtesy isn't always shown to us engineers.


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Get your music professionally mastered by anl AES registered Mastering Engineer. Contact me for Audio Mastering Services and Advice and visit our website www.miromastering.com

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We use professional, mastering grade hardware in our mastering studo. Our hardware includes:
Cranesong Avocet II Monitor Controller, Dangerous Music Liasion Insert Hardware Router, ATC SCM Pro Monitors, Lavry Black DA11, Prism Orpheus ADC/DAC, Gyratec Gyraf XIV Parallel Passive Mastering EQ, Great River MAQ 2NV Mastering EQ, Kush Clariphonic Parallel EQ Shelf, Maselec MLA-2 Mastering Compressor, API 2500 Mastering Compressor, Eventide Eclipse Reverb/Echo.
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Mith
post Jul 28 2014, 03:18 PM
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oh I don't think you get paid enough, its alot of others that make you have to charge more and have higher overheads.

and my bad, it was just under 20k

http://ronansrecordingshow.com/2010/06/ana...670-recreation/

Just a idea for you tho. Maybe the avenue of making recordings isn't the most profitable for you. Maybe teaching people to record better might be a via path and not only do you preserve the knowledge you gained over the years your income might get better too?

Just a idea for you. As you said earlier losing that valuable information is the worst part.


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klasaine
post Jul 28 2014, 04:16 PM
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A little bit of a reality check on the 'money' being paid to record company (and music biz) execs.

Irving Azoff - a guy that's been in the business for over 40 years and still considered to be the most powerful person in the music industry, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Azoff and responsible for acts from Christina Agiulera to the Eagles to Van Halen and is now the CEO of 'Live Nation' made $34 million dollars last year. Which is a lot of money to me - but put into perspective ...

The CEO of McKesson Pharmaceuticals (John Hammergren) made $131,000,000.00


The record business (and certainly the music production business i.e., the making of the actual music) does not garner the same level of cash as other 'big' business does. Record execs never made the huge money say a CEO or VP on Wall Street made/makes.

* If the music business ever had a financial 'hey day' ... and that's a big 'if' (relatively speaking) - it lasted maybe 20 years from the early 70s to the early 90s.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Jul 28 2014, 05:02 PM


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Bogdan Radovic
post Jul 29 2014, 11:17 AM
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Thinking more about all this, maybe one of the most essential skills a guitarist needs to have is mixed knowledge of lots of stuff. Same as airline pilots which don't necessarily know by heart what to do in details for every possible scenario when something goes out of the routine with the aircraft, but what they know extremely well is where to find the necessary information - fast. I have met some musicians/guitarists who do not have much knowledge of what is involved in music production/recording, marketing, gear etc etc. In example - in most cases they do not know what mastering does exactly. This can be the root problem as if they don't, they might settle for less (for example: small recording/mixing studio doing mastering they are not equipped to do). The one doesn't necessarily need to know how to do something by himself, but it surely helps a lot to know what is involved in the task and who should know how to do it and what is the best/most efficient way to get it done. Also, having this background can also help assess if one can handle the task by himself or not (not referring to mastering here).

Young bands and musicians usually don't have those skills built in as they come from the experience and I did see lots of them waiting for stuff to fall out of the sky for them (gigs, promos, online presence etc etc) - starting with me and my band doing the same thing, waiting to get asked (discovered?) to play on a huge stage smile.gif What I find as the best resource to get those "street skills" is to just hang out with as many musicians as possible and also to join online guitar/musician forums. The information you absorb this way can make a big difference in comparison to being isolated.

Being "informed" can make a huge difference and getting that information as its obtained through socializing is fun smile.gif


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Jul 29 2014, 12:37 PM
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QUOTE (Mith @ Jul 28 2014, 02:18 PM) *
oh I don't think you get paid enough, its alot of others that make you have to charge more and have higher overheads.

and my bad, it was just under 20k

http://ronansrecordingshow.com/2010/06/ana...670-recreation/

Just a idea for you tho. Maybe the avenue of making recordings isn't the most profitable for you. Maybe teaching people to record better might be a via path and not only do you preserve the knowledge you gained over the years your income might get better too?

Just a idea for you. As you said earlier losing that valuable information is the worst part.


Professional mastering doesn't easily lend it self to teaching people and particularly not quickly via 10 week courses and the like. Professional mastering means that you treat every project as individual and make no decisions at all until you have critically listened to it. After that there are 'no rules' regarding how you process it sonically - you do whatever you do to get a result. Sometimes you place an eq before a comp, sometimes after, sometimes side chain and so on provided you get what you wanted. You can really only demonstrate all of the different things you do as the work comes in and when it's required. That's one reason why I put the trainnees that I take on through an 18 month, or more, training period. They don't even get to touch the hardware until they've spent way more than 6 months just listening to music, thinking and watching.

In common with a lot of other pro mastering studios I do supplement the work but by doing post. I'm even talking to my business partner and accountant at the moment about whether we should invest heavily in a new room and a 7.2 monitoring system to do surround post. That would be a big investment though as the monitoring alone would be over £250k.


====================================================

QUOTE (klasaine @ Jul 28 2014, 03:16 PM) *
...


The record business (and certainly the music production business i.e., the making of the actual music) does not garner the same level of cash as other 'big' business does. Record execs never made the huge money say a CEO or VP on Wall Street made/makes.

* If the music business ever had a financial 'hey day' ... and that's a big 'if' (relatively speaking) - it lasted maybe 20 years from the early 70s to the early 90s.


Very, very true Ken. The majority of us who work in the industry professionally could probably earn as much if not more doing a very similar role in a different industry. Whilst most of us make a reasonable living very few of us are what you would call rich or are ever likely to be.

Just with regards to the economics of an idependent studio and why banks don't see us as a good investment:

A professional mastering studio, including land costs, is more than £400k to build. You can then add at least another £100k for facilities, acoustic treatment consultant fees, and the treatment. A minimum of equipment - mastering console, 2 eqs, 2 comps, limiter, AD/DA. 3 way mid/far field monitoring will add another £100k. So call it a nice round £600k invest to set up a mastering studio (many cost more). I charge about £400 including taxes to master a 10 track album. You need to do a lot of work to even break even. Banks see that and the music industry in general as a bad investment and high risk.


--------------------
Get your music professionally mastered by anl AES registered Mastering Engineer. Contact me for Audio Mastering Services and Advice and visit our website www.miromastering.com

Be friends on facebook with us here.

We use professional, mastering grade hardware in our mastering studo. Our hardware includes:
Cranesong Avocet II Monitor Controller, Dangerous Music Liasion Insert Hardware Router, ATC SCM Pro Monitors, Lavry Black DA11, Prism Orpheus ADC/DAC, Gyratec Gyraf XIV Parallel Passive Mastering EQ, Great River MAQ 2NV Mastering EQ, Kush Clariphonic Parallel EQ Shelf, Maselec MLA-2 Mastering Compressor, API 2500 Mastering Compressor, Eventide Eclipse Reverb/Echo.
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Cosmin Lupu
post Jul 29 2014, 05:49 PM
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QUOTE (Bogdan Radovic @ Jul 29 2014, 10:17 AM) *
Thinking more about all this, maybe one of the most essential skills a guitarist needs to have is mixed knowledge of lots of stuff. Same as airline pilots which don't necessarily know by heart what to do in details for every possible scenario when something goes out of the routine with the aircraft, but what they know extremely well is where to find the necessary information - fast. I have met some musicians/guitarists who do not have much knowledge of what is involved in music production/recording, marketing, gear etc etc. In example - in most cases they do not know what mastering does exactly. This can be the root problem as if they don't, they might settle for less (for example: small recording/mixing studio doing mastering they are not equipped to do). The one doesn't necessarily need to know how to do something by himself, but it surely helps a lot to know what is involved in the task and who should know how to do it and what is the best/most efficient way to get it done. Also, having this background can also help assess if one can handle the task by himself or not (not referring to mastering here).

Young bands and musicians usually don't have those skills built in as they come from the experience and I did see lots of them waiting for stuff to fall out of the sky for them (gigs, promos, online presence etc etc) - starting with me and my band doing the same thing, waiting to get asked (discovered?) to play on a huge stage smile.gif What I find as the best resource to get those "street skills" is to just hang out with as many musicians as possible and also to join online guitar/musician forums. The information you absorb this way can make a big difference in comparison to being isolated.

Being "informed" can make a huge difference and getting that information as its obtained through socializing is fun smile.gif


Staying informed and learning is pretty much the way to survive in any field, but some people don't really care THAT much - as long as they see it as a hobby, they want the instant gratification and not too much effort to go along with it... and then they get bummed, because... 'Hey, it didn't work out!!' Some get back to the drawing board and are patient, some float around waiting for the Golden Goose's eggs biggrin.gif and a lot just quit.

The questions is simple - How much does it matter and how much are you willing to invest in time spent researching, learning, practicing and making connections? smile.gif

I think it all relates to that and in the end, regardless of how much everyone says - I WANT TO LEARN/ I WANT TO SOUND GOOD/ I WANT TO GIG BIG/ I WANT TO BE EXPOSED! - only those that take the time, seize the opportunity and truthfully, have some luck to be at the right place at the right time, get to reap the fruits smile.gif


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Todd Simpson
post Jul 30 2014, 07:13 AM
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Just a thought smile.gif One trend I've read about, happening in the L.A. post scene, is that the bigger shops that have bought in to 7.x systems can't book them solid and have empty space that they sell at a discount to outsiders. I don't know if there are any such operations where you are located TONYMIRO, but if such facilities exist, it may be worth at least looking at subletting until you get enough steady clientele to justify the expenditure of that magnitude. Or if it's more profitable to sublet, maybe never build at all.

Of course, assuming that there are such facilities close buy where you are. Which I have no idea if such exist or not sad.gif

Todd

[quote name='tonymiro' date='Jul 29 2014, 07:37 AM' post='692911']
Professional mastering doesn't easily lend it self to teaching people and particularly not quickly via 10 week courses and the like. Professional mastering means that you treat every project as individual and make no decisions at all until you have critically listened to it. After that there are 'no rules' regarding how you process it sonically - you do whatever you do to get a result. Sometimes you place an eq before a comp, sometimes after, sometimes side chain and so on provided you get what you wanted. You can really only demonstrate all of the different things you do as the work comes in and when it's required. That's one reason why I put the trainnees that I take on through an 18 month, or more, training period. They don't even get to touch the hardware until they've spent way more than 6 months just listening to music, thinking and watching.

In common with a lot of other pro mastering studios I do supplement the work but by doing post. I'm even talking to my business partner and accountant at the moment about whether we should invest heavily in a new room and a 7.2 monitoring system to do surround post. That would be a big investment though as the monitoring alone would be over £250k.


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Jul 30 2014, 03:28 PM
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I take your point and I think you're right that the market is pretty saturated where you are Todd. It's a bit different here though and the market research that we've done, although basic as we're still just at the initial phase, has the nearest 7.2s in Madrid and Barcelona - there's some studios doing post here but none are 7.2 and to be honest some of them are pretty basic. In the last 18 months we've turned down about 30ks worth of work as we're not set up for it and whilst that's not a lot we haven't looked for any. If we go ahead we'd run the 2 studios at least initially as a sinlge operation albeit dual premises and so one of our big issues is finding something local that meets our needs regarding size of room and facilities. But it's early days and we're still number crunching.

This post has been edited by tonymiro: Jul 30 2014, 05:32 PM


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klasaine
post Jul 30 2014, 04:30 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 29 2014, 11:13 PM) *
One trend I've read about, happening in the L.A. post scene, is that the bigger shops that have bought in to 7.x systems can't book them solid and have empty space that they sell at a discount to outsiders.


Definitely, though it's always been common here for studios - any type of studio including motion picture sound stages - to 'rent' their down time. Usually considerably cheaper than their prime time for the major and mid-level labels/clients. Tons of great 'first' records (by now famous bands) were recorded on down time for cheap at great studios *(with really good engineers and producers who believed in the band and got the down-time deal).

This is how you can read on the credits of a tiny independent release - 'recorded at Capitol A in Hollywood' or 'mixed at Sunset Sound'.

*Slightly OT for these last couple of posts but related to the topic in general ...
Just because an album is physically recorded and mixed at one of the 'Temples of Sound' doesn't mean it was recorded or mixed by a guy or gal that has any idea what they're doing or knows how to use the board.
I've done many sessions at many of the legendary rooms here for projects that would have been equally or even better served at smaller (read: way cheaper) facilities or even in a tiny bedroom studio.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Jul 30 2014, 04:35 PM


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Todd Simpson
post Jul 31 2014, 12:25 AM
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So running down to Madrid for a down time session probably not gonna work. sad.gif Sounds like you'd be the only facility in your area with 7.2? That's pretty spiff smile.gif Would give you an edge over all the other post houses doing sound in your neck of the woods. smile.gif

Have you considered just adding speakers and processors to your current facility to test market the demand for 7.2 before risking the outlay for expansion? I know it would be far from perfect, but you could at least test the idea and get some surround mixes out the door to get the word out and keep your current facility commute smile.gif

Just a thought.

Todd

QUOTE (tonymiro @ Jul 30 2014, 10:28 AM) *
I take your point and I think you're right that the market is pretty saturated where you are Todd. It's a bit different here though and the market research that we've done, although basic as we're still just at the initial phase, has the nearest 7.2s in Madrid and Barcelona - there's some studios doing post here but none are 7.2 and to be honest some of them are pretty basic. In the last 18 months we've turned down about 30ks worth of work as we're not set up for it and whilst that's not a lot we haven't looked for any. If we go ahead we'd run the 2 studios at least initially as a sinlge operation albeit dual premises and so one of our big issues is finding something local that meets our needs regarding size of room and facilities. But it's early days and we're still number crunching.


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Saoirse O'Shea
post Jul 31 2014, 10:18 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Jul 30 2014, 03:30 PM) *
Definitely, though it's always been common here for studios - any type of studio including motion picture sound stages - to 'rent' their down time. Usually considerably cheaper than their prime time for the major and mid-level labels/clients. Tons of great 'first' records (by now famous bands) were recorded on down time for cheap at great studios *(with really good engineers and producers who believed in the band and got the down-time deal).

This is how you can read on the credits of a tiny independent release - 'recorded at Capitol A in Hollywood' or 'mixed at Sunset Sound'.

*Slightly OT for these last couple of posts but related to the topic in general ...
Just because an album is physically recorded and mixed at one of the 'Temples of Sound' doesn't mean it was recorded or mixed by a guy or gal that has any idea what they're doing or knows how to use the board.
I've done many sessions at many of the legendary rooms here for projects that would have been equally or even better served at smaller (read: way cheaper) facilities or even in a tiny bedroom studio.


Very true Ken. Out of hours/over nights is done by most of the mastering multirooms and if you look at the contract they state that you have no say over who the mastering engineer is. You may get a name engineer but it is much more likely that you will get someone who is part way through their training. A potentially bigger issue is that some tend to batch process.


QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Jul 30 2014, 11:25 PM) *
So running down to Madrid for a down time session probably not gonna work. sad.gif Sounds like you'd be the only facility in your area with 7.2? That's pretty spiff smile.gif Would give you an edge over all the other post houses doing sound in your neck of the woods. smile.gif

Have you considered just adding speakers and processors to your current facility to test market the demand for 7.2 before risking the outlay for expansion? I know it would be far from perfect, but you could at least test the idea and get some surround mixes out the door to get the word out and keep your current facility commute smile.gif

Just a thought.

Todd


Our mastering room is big enough for 2.1 with our mid fields but is too small for 7.2 with far fields. It's an on-going debate between me and my business partner as to whether or not we do some surround work now before we're properly set up to test the water or wait until we have a facility that is equipped or at least very nearly equipped.* You can probably guess which side I'm arguing cool.gif

Processing is pretty much all in hand by the way. The main thing that we'd have to do there is just do a minor change to our Cranesong monitor controller and add an additional switiching unit to change it from 2.1 to full 7.2. That's easy enogh and is only about $2000 plus a bit for the cabling. Our mastering daw is already fully spec'ed for post and surround so all the control switching to fully sync AV at frame rate is already there. Has to be really as we do 2.1 post anyway.


* there are some studios who do do 7.2 surround but really do not have the room and monitoring set up to be able to do it properly. That's understandable as you do need a very large room and that with the far field mastering grade monitors is a big investment.


--------------------
Get your music professionally mastered by anl AES registered Mastering Engineer. Contact me for Audio Mastering Services and Advice and visit our website www.miromastering.com

Be friends on facebook with us here.

We use professional, mastering grade hardware in our mastering studo. Our hardware includes:
Cranesong Avocet II Monitor Controller, Dangerous Music Liasion Insert Hardware Router, ATC SCM Pro Monitors, Lavry Black DA11, Prism Orpheus ADC/DAC, Gyratec Gyraf XIV Parallel Passive Mastering EQ, Great River MAQ 2NV Mastering EQ, Kush Clariphonic Parallel EQ Shelf, Maselec MLA-2 Mastering Compressor, API 2500 Mastering Compressor, Eventide Eclipse Reverb/Echo.
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Todd Simpson
post Aug 1 2014, 02:07 AM
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You and your biz partner are BOTH right of course smile.gif But maybe you can both be right and just take turns being right? If you let him be right for a little while at first, before making the BIG investment, you can start gauging the demand, dipping in to surround work, developing the process, making contacts etc. without the big capital risk. smile.gif

If it goes well, and you guys make some extra scratch, then it's your turn to be "right" and invest in what is clearly a new revenue stream for the business smile.gif See what I mean? Basically, make do with the minimum, spending as little as you can, dig in to the surround market, then expand once you have the revenue to support it smile.gif

I can't tell you how many times in the past I have spent money on gear/software in expectation of work/gigs and then said work/gigs fell apart, never happened, etc. These days, I work on "float". I buy some new gear, immediately put it up for sale, and try to improve it a bit and make a little money on it. When it sells, I've already picked out what I wanna try next. That way I don't get stuck holding gear that can't be justified on the balance sheet. IT's just a temporary asset soon to generate revenue smile.gif

Todd


QUOTE (tonymiro @ Jul 31 2014, 05:18 AM) *
Very true Ken. Out of hours/over nights is done by most of the mastering multirooms and if you look at the contract they sta.. switiching unit to change it from 2.1 to full 7.2. That's easy enogh and is only about $2000 plus a bit for the cabling. Our mastering daw is already fully spec'ed for post and surround so all the control switching to fully sync AV at frame rate is already there. Has to be really as we do 2.1 post anyway.


* there are some studios who do do 7.2 surround but really do not have the room and monitoring set up to be able to do it properly. That's understandable as you do need a very large room and that with the far field mastering grade monitors is a big investment.



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