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> Chris S. Guitar Development Lab
Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 27 2014, 03:47 PM
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Hey matey smile.gif Most likely, out of what I am deducing here, you are playing in the key of Dmajor but since you are using a B minor chord to begin with, you have an Aeolian progression on your hands here. Or a natural minor scale based progression. If you want to figure out the chords, here's a good process:

- what's the note played in the bass?
- what relationship do all the other notes in the chord have with this one? Which note is a third for the root note, which one is the 5th and so on? I gave you the lesson with the triads, so that you may be able to understand the way in which chords are being derived from a major scale, through the harmonizing process.

Give it a try and I will help along the way wink.gif So let's see what your assumptions are, based on what you have learned in the triads lesson - deal?

About the vibrato - by wider and rounded, I mean that vibrato needs to be executed smoothly and not rushed - it is pretty difficult to explain in words, because it has to be seen in order to be understood, that's why, I would like to introduce you to this lesson here - for the time being, watch Ben as he executes the vibrato and see the beauty in the execution and the expression - his lesson sums up what I meant smile.gif

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Bens-Vibrato-Odyssey-5/

Yes, the notes work well with the chords - that's the exact idea wink.gif You have derived the chords from a major scale and the notes in the solo from the same major scale biggrin.gif

QUOTE (Chris S. @ Oct 25 2014, 03:36 AM) *
Thanks!

I understand that "wider" means I should be bending the string to get a higher pitch with the vibrato but what do you mean by "more rounded" ? Slower?

Didn't realize how bad my vibrato was until you started to help me out - and here I thought I've been doing it right all these years dry.gif tongue.gif



Well there are 3 chords and then I add an extra note to two of them:

CODE
E|-----|--------|--2--3--|
B|--3--|--2--3--|--3-----|
G|--4--|--2-----|--2-----|
D|--4--|--2-----|--0-----|
A|--2--|--0-----|--------|
E|-----|--------|--------|


So I know that the root of the first chord is a B note (so it must be some sort of B chord?) and the other notes would be F#, another B but an octave up and finally a D.

The second chord I know is an A chord because it's one of the few open chords I know:

A E A (one octave higher) and C# but then I hammer on the C# to a D and then I don't know what it becomes.

And finally the last chord is a basic open D chord:

D A D (one octave higher) and F# but then I play the same chord with the F# being a G instead and I don't know what the chord becomes.

So all together:
CODE
E|-----|--------|--F#-G--|
B|--D--|--C#-D--|--D-----|
G|--B--|--A-----|--A-----|
D|--F#-|--E-----|--D-----|
A|--B--|--A-----|--------|
E|-----|--------|--------|




A B C# D E F#

So now that I have actually figured out all notes from the chords and scales they match! So does this mean they do work well with each other?

It took me a while to figure the notes out but the fact that I even did shows that I'm already getting better!

So now that we figured the notes out, how do I know the names of the chords I made (other than the ones I know) and what scale?

Thanks boss man! cool.gif

And on a lighter note:




Hehe! I just read this now - you are on the right track mate - keep going and about the A D E with A as the root, will give you a Asus4 chord - D is not a flat 5th or sharp 4th but a perfect 4th and D is the 5th, so that gives us a 1 4 5 formula - Asus4

You are doing good - please let me know if things are clear with the Asus4, ok?


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Chris S.
post Oct 28 2014, 02:03 AM
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I think I'm finally getting it!

This whole time I've been using the intervals for D Major for each chord when I'm supposed to be using the major scale of each chord root!

CODE
B Major

B  C# D# E F# G# A#

I am playing B D F# which would be I, flat III, V therefor B minor!


CODE
A Major

A  B  C# D  E  F# G#

I am playing A C# E which would be I, III, V therefor A major!


Is I IV V always a sus4?

A D E would be I, IV, V therefor Asus4

CODE
D Major

D  E  F# G  A  B  C#

I am playing D A F# which would be I, III, V therefor D major!

and

D A G which would be I, IV, V therefor Dsus4!


Did I do it right?! laugh.gif

This post has been edited by Chris S.: Oct 28 2014, 02:04 AM
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Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 28 2014, 08:54 AM
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Bullseye!! Good going mate biggrin.gif

You got them figured out perfectly! wink.gif How's the triad lesson coming along?


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Chris S.
post Oct 28 2014, 07:36 PM
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YES!!! This is how I feel after figuring it out:



tongue.gif

As far as the triad lesson goes, I feel like my timing has improved since the last take. Do you think I am ready to move on to the next lesson yet?

Take Three:
https://soundcloud.com/stortzmusic/major-tr...sson-take-three

Also:

I've been trying to slow my vibrato down so its not so rushed and I came up with this while messing around:

https://soundcloud.com/stortzmusic/egyptian-idea

Keep rockin'

EDIT:

I've been reading into modes and some things are starting to click but I still have a long way to go.

So I know that each interval gets its own mode:

I = Ionian
II = Dorian
III = Phyrgian
IV = Lydian
V = Mixolydian
VI = Aeolian
V = Locrian

And since the root of the B minor chord is obviously B, and the interval for B in D major is VI - the VI mode is Aeolian

So I would be playing B Aeolian over the B Minor chord.

So I'm basically starting with D Major - and the first position of the scale relates to D Ionian.

Now when I play the second box position of D Major starting with E, those notes match up to the second interval which would be E Dorian.

And when I move to the third box position that pattern relates to F# Phyrgian and so on and so forth.

Am I on the right track? Because the biggest thing that confuses me is when do I use the modes? Like I'm playing a B minor chord so do I have to use the Aeolian mode over that chord and as soon as I switch to the A major chord do I then switch to the Mixolydian mode and then back to the Aeolian mode, etc?

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Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 29 2014, 03:37 PM
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Hey mate! Hehe! That song is the backing track of hope and success! biggrin.gif

Great playing and tone here, in the triads take! biggrin.gif I loved it! It's clear that you made progress, but there's a shape around 0:08 which sounds a little funny to me - what happened there? smile.gif I would now, go for a video and then straight to the REC zone! What do you think? wink.gif

About the modes - you are on the right track and all your assumptions are correct! The idea with modes is that it's very misleading to look at them as shapes or positions. They should be regarded as flavors occuring due to the relationship between notes and the chords that they are being played over.

For instance - check out the theme in Simpsons:



Try to emulate the first three notes played by the vocal line smile.gif Tell me what you get - use the guitar to find them! Deal? I promise you that you will look at modes totally different than you would've before, if you will do this biggrin.gif

About the Egyptian idea - it is nice and it can be developed into a theme, but please take care with the pitches as sometimes, you are not vibrating into pitch - the vibrato has to be consistent and it should stay in pitch and feel very confident and full of intention. It's not easy to develop this sort of a skill, but with time and perseverence, it will get there.

Please let me know about the Simpsons theme biggrin.gif


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Chris S.
post Oct 29 2014, 04:50 PM
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QUOTE
It's clear that you made progress, but there's a shape around 0:08 which sounds a little funny to me - what happened there?


The intonation of my guitar is pretty bad - I hadn't even noticed until now rolleyes.gif

I just had to put four new tires on my car so it may be a few weeks until I can afford to have a setup dry.gif

QUOTE
I would now, go for a video and then straight to the REC zone! What do you think?


https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...showtopic=53293

QUOTE
Try to emulate the first three notes played by the vocal line


Are the first two notes C and E? My ear training is pretty poor, I've never listened to piece and tried to play it just by ear I have always went right to the internet to try and find tabs (something I would like to change!).

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Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 30 2014, 09:37 AM
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Hehe! Graded ya! You got a 9 from me, because of the intonation issue - let's see what the other guys have to say, but hey, as I said in the REC zone, if we would compare the first take with this one, it's a HUGE improvement from every perspective, so congrats once again!

Ear training is one of the most important aspects in one's musical development smile.gif I will stress this out and throw things at you as much as possible, so yes, the first note is C but the second is not E - but it's pretty close wink.gif Will you give it another try? Use a tuner and let's see which notes are the second and the third, deal? biggrin.gif


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Chris S.
post Oct 30 2014, 08:44 PM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Oct 30 2014, 08:37 AM) *
Hehe! Graded ya! You got a 9 from me, because of the intonation issue - let's see what the other guys have to say, but hey, as I said in the REC zone, if we would compare the first take with this one, it's a HUGE improvement from every perspective, so congrats once again!


Thanks a lot Cosmin! I couldn't have done any of this without you, my friend. biggrin.gif

Shall I begin working on the vibrato lesson you showed me, or did you have something else in mind?

QUOTE
Ear training is one of the most important aspects in one's musical development smile.gif I will stress this out and throw things at you as much as possible, so yes, the first note is C but the second is not E - but it's pretty close wink.gif Will you give it another try? Use a tuner and let's see which notes are the second and the third, deal? biggrin.gif


C D# E?
'

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Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 31 2014, 01:27 PM
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Hehe! Nothing to it Chris!

As I told you, you are a very hard working dude and I like working with you!

Now, please do proceed with the vibrato lesson indeed smile.gif You need to get your vibrato in great shape, in order to become a refinde lead player wink.gif

About the notes, I will tell you: C F# G - what do you notice in respect to the relationship between these notes? How do F# and G relate to C?


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Chris S.
post Oct 31 2014, 05:29 PM
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I shall channel my inner BB King and become a vibrato virtuouso!

And for the notes:

From the key of C:

C F# G would be I, bV, V?

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Cosmin Lupu
post Nov 1 2014, 07:21 PM
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Yes please! I would be very interested in seeing a first recording, as soon as you will learn it wink.gif

Good shot with the relationship between the notes, with one little observation: I would look at F# as it is the raised 4th rather then the flat 5th - now, tell me what is the formula of the Lydian mode? smile.gif And what are the notes in the C lydian mode?


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Chris S.
post Nov 2 2014, 01:31 AM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Nov 1 2014, 06:21 PM) *
Yes please! I would be very interested in seeing a first recording, as soon as you will learn it wink.gif

Good shot with the relationship between the notes, with one little observation: I would look at F# as it is the raised 4th rather then the flat 5th - now, tell me what is the formula of the Lydian mode? smile.gif And what are the notes in the C lydian mode?

Would it be a raised 4th because you don't want two of the same intervals? (Raised IV, V instead of Vb, V)

Similar to how you wouldn't have Gb and G so you would call Gb F#?

And from what I have read Lydian is one of the major modes so the formula would be the same as a major scale and the key of C has all naturals so:

C D E F G A B = C Lydian?

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Cosmin Lupu
post Nov 2 2014, 10:18 AM
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Hey Chris!

COrrect assumptions until you stated the formula smile.gif The correct formula for the Lydian mode is 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 8 - applied to the key of C, we get -> C D E F# G A B C

The Lydian mode features a raised 4th in comparison to the major scale, whose formula is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

So knowing these, you must also know that each mode has a characteristic scale degree - that is that one/two note(s) which give that particular mode, it's flavor so to say smile.gif

So far, I think you have already deduced that you are FAR better understanding the structure of a mode and it's particular sounds rather then learning positions on the neck - am I right? biggrin.gif So, to sum up the thing with the Simpsons theme - the C F# and G notes are particularly important in emphasizing the Lydian mode - C is the root, F# is the raised fourth - both of them are crucial in establishing the mode used and its key, while the fifth concludes the phrase smile.gif

Let's see what your thoughts are and we'll take it from there - I will send you more examples to train your ears biggrin.gif


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Chris S.
post Nov 2 2014, 12:42 PM
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So basically instead of memorizing shapes and patterns of modes, I should memorize the tonal characteristics? (Example being that Lydian has a raised fourth)?

And to use them in songwriting I would just take the major scale and come up with a lick or something in say C Major - and if I wanted to hear how that sounds in Lydian I would just raise the fourth?

Is that a more practical way or does it focus more on what chords/rhythm is being used? Because I know that with the Hear Our Cries snippet I came up with was in D Major, but since I'm starting with a B chord instead of D it would have been more practical to call it B Aeolian.

It kinda seems like there are different uses for modes and how to apply them, that's really the most confusing aspect of them to me.

Thanks boss man! cool.gif

EDIT:

WOW! 6-ish years of doing vibrato completely wrong is a bad habit that is going to be hard to break!

This is my first attempt at the lesson unsure.gif

https://soundcloud.com/stortzmusic/bens-vibrato-odyssey-5-first-attempt

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Cosmin Lupu
post Nov 3 2014, 09:09 AM
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As usual, your assumptions are correct - mate, you have a very clear way of understanding things already, so all you need to do here is go on and take your time wink.gif Don't let yourself be frustrated or stuff like that because of not knowing 'enough'. Rejoice on knowing that you have a good understanding power and use it smile.gif

Now, yes, I would say that this is the right way to understand modes, as a principle and not as a bunch of positions smile.gif

The principle revolves around the idea of understanding the relationship between chords and certain notes and the sound results that we get when we use them smile.gif After that, finding them on the neck, is a matter of exercise, but you need to understand WHAT you should exercise and WHY - correct? smile.gif

There are two ways in which you can look at modes - the relative and the parallel approach. I like the second one, because it reveals the true nature and characteristics of each mode. Out of a sheer occurence (is it? biggrin.gif), the way in which you looked at building a lick using the major scale and then altering the 4th to make it a raised fourth, is the parallel approach smile.gif Now, you must know that the chord or chord progression over which you are playing the idea makes a big difference - it must be a Lydian progression or a major chord, if it's just a chord, spanning over a larger number of bars.

Now, about the recording - please try to practice and record against the original recording done by Ben, now that you have the structure under your thumb. Why? Well, you need to address two important aspects:

- pitches - when you execute the vibrato, most notes don't reach the intended pitch
- timing - some phrases are not in good timing

Trying the approach described above, will allow you to listen in a comparative manner - both recordings side by side and see the spots in which your recording differes from Ben's, then isolate that specific part and work on it until it matches Ben's smile.gif Do we have a deal?


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Chris S.
post Nov 3 2014, 08:07 PM
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Sounds good, Cosmin! I will apply your advice to the lesson and will post an update by the end of the week.

Is there anything else you would like me to work on as well? A new theory topic or something?

cool.gif
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Cosmin Lupu
post Nov 4 2014, 05:54 PM
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Hey mate! I am looking foward to hearing your new take and in the mean time smile.gif Please try to analyze each mode as we did with the Lydian. Let's start with the Dorian, since we have already talked about the major scale which is the Ionian mode - tell me, which is the Dorian formula and which is the characteristic scale degree in your opinion and out of the theory you have read so far? I will tell more, but I like the way in which your intuition functions and I think it's very heathy to push it to new limits all the time biggrin.gif


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Chris S.
post Nov 4 2014, 06:43 PM
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I love the challenge! cool.gif

So Lydian has a raised fourth and from what I read Dorian had a flat 3rd and Flat 7th.

So C Dorian would be:

C D Eb F G A Bb ?

One question that I have is while I reading about modes and the major scale I'm a little confused about about intervals.

I understand major and minor but what about perfect?

Like in C Dorian there is a perfect 4th and perfect 5th?



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Cosmin Lupu
post Nov 4 2014, 07:44 PM
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Hey Chris - yes, in C Dorian you have a perfect 4th and a perfect 5th and the major 6th is the chracteristic scale degree - why not try to play the major 6th - the A note against a C minor chord - see how it sounds wink.gif

Another question, if you compare the formulas for the Dorian, Aeolian and Phrygian modes - what notes do they have in common? smile.gif


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Chris S.
post Nov 5 2014, 02:56 AM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Nov 4 2014, 06:44 PM) *
Hey Chris - yes, in C Dorian you have a perfect 4th and a perfect 5th and the major 6th is the chracteristic scale degree - why not try to play the major 6th - the A note against a C minor chord - see how it sounds wink.gif

Another question, if you compare the formulas for the Dorian, Aeolian and Phrygian modes - what notes do they have in common? smile.gif

The A over the C minor, to my ears, has a sort of sinister sound to it (listened to it with MIDI though)?

So Dorian has a flat 3rd and flat 7th:

C D Eb F G A Bb

Aeolian has a flat 3rd, flat 6th and flat 7th:

C D Eb F G Ab Bb

Phrygian has a flat 2nd, flat 3rd, flat 6th and flat 7th:

C Db Eb F G Ab Bb


So looking at all of the notes - C Dorian, C Aeolian and C Phrygian all share C, Eb, F, G and Bb - what would be the importance of these shared notes?

This is fun! cool.gif
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