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> The Crowdfunding Thing
Ben Higgins
post Oct 4 2014, 12:15 PM
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I wanted to post about this because I'm interested in what you all think.

I'm sure you all know what crowd funding is by now.. if any of you follow certain metal news sites you've probably seen an ongoing story involving Wintersun. To try to sum it up, the band's main man has complained of being in a sort of deadlock with his label Nuclear Blast and has declared the only way he can move forward is by using crowd funding to build a studio. Not a spartan style studio with the bare essentials but a proper, plush studio complete with absolute life essentials like... a sauna, for example. You know, those things that we couldn't function without otherwise we'd die.

I don't know much about the band but I like their music, or what I've heard of it. But anyway, you can catch up with the full story here with some handy links to fill you in on previous instalments. Warning: You might want to grab a coffee and sit down, there's a lot of words.

http://www.metalsucks.net/2014/10/03/winte...ssed-made-nice/

I'm not gonna slag off Wintersun or Jari. But all I will do is say how I personally feel about a hypothetical crowdfunding scenario if it applied to me.

I don't think it is anybody's responsibility but mine to sort out my life and get to where I want to be.

Even if I'm poor. Which I am. Probably a lot poorer than Jari and certainly less well known with less contacts or opportunities in the music industry. Even then, I would not allow fans in their innocently naive enthusiasm to endlessly post things on my wall declaring that they will send me money to my Paypal account. And this isn't just the occasional fan. It's loads of them. Ready to throw their money at it.

Now, even if I didn't take them up on their offer (which Jari may or may not have done) I would still (out of basic human decency) publicly thank them but kindly refuse their offer of help. Because I wouldn't want them to feel like it's their responsibility to make the project happen. I certainly wouldn't let them just say all that stuff and say nothing in return.

It's like when someone sees you're upset about something and you let them worry about you instead of reassuring them that they don't have to worry. If you allow people to fawn over you and you enjoy the attention, you're probably being an a**hole. That's how I feel about fans offering to send money to musicians and musicians allowing them to feel like they should.

I'm not really big on the whole crowd funding thing anyway. Even for small things. But maybe it's because I'm a dinosaur when it comes to certain outlooks on life. Maybe I'm too honest, too responsible. Maybe I'm not willing to use people enough in this dog eat dog world. Or maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way. I don't think it's an issue of pride either. It's just common sense and decency in my eyes. I chose this life. If it's not easy it's because that's what goes with the territory. But the choice was mine.

There's a difference between allowing people to help you in life and a lack of responsibility. When it comes to crowd funding I just can't help but see the latter.

I try to be open minded so I'm prepared to look at other sides of the story as always. What do you guys think about this Wintersun situation and crowd funding in general ?



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Mith
post Oct 4 2014, 12:25 PM
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I'd have to agree, It seems like its backwards. I know of bands crowd funding for a album. Its like hey pay for a CD that you have no idea how good its going to be.With today technology it really isn't that hard to make recordings and sell them and if your smart you put that money away and make better recordings and then make more money.


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bleez
post Oct 4 2014, 01:38 PM
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I dont mind the crowd funding thing at all but I wouldnt touch the wintersun thing with a pole, its one thing to fund an album but to ask your fans outright to fund a custom built studio / business is another thing. You obviously dont need your own personal studio to make a good album, you may need to 'use' one but you really dont need to own one. Maybe he feels like he's due his own studio because he's super awesome.
I helped crowd fund Lascaille's Shrouds second album, it was effectively like a pre-order and the pledges were fair. I have no problem with supporting stuff like that.

I also pledged to the Banger films Metal evolution series. They were funding a 'lost episode' on extreme metal. I liked the original series and wanted to see the extreme one so that was cool but after about a month of it coming out they released it for free. I thought that was a bit lame. I probably wont pledge on their next thing. Although it was a good episode tbf rolleyes.gif

so yeah, crowd funding in general is fine with me, I dont mind throwing in some cash for an album ( or whatever ) I think will be worth buying if the pledges seem reasonable to me. The wintersun one? ..... nope.


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PosterBoy
post Oct 4 2014, 02:00 PM
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I like the idea of Crowdfunding for Albums, I've helped a few artists that I like do it by essentially buying the album and maybe a t shirt or a cd of the demos before the album is recorded.

Helping a band build a studio with sauna etc what do I get out of that?


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Ben Higgins
post Oct 4 2014, 02:11 PM
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QUOTE (bleez @ Oct 4 2014, 01:38 PM) *
I helped crowd fund Lascaille's Shrouds second album, it was effectively like a pre-order and the pledges were fair. I have no problem with supporting stuff like that.


Yes, that's where crowd funding seems fair and it works. Essentially a pre order but your money is part of the funding process to getting it to the public. I know that's what C. funding is essentially supposed to be.

It's when the balance between the ask and the reward are so out of proportion it's unreal. Or if the asker is somebody who could, in reality, do more to be responsible for their project.

I read about Rob Zombie crowd funding a movie. Not sure if that's still going or not but that seemed way off to me.

QUOTE (PosterBoy @ Oct 4 2014, 02:00 PM) *
Helping a band build a studio with sauna etc what do I get out of that?


If you read the Wintersun fan comments they'll tell you stuff like "Jari has a dream and a vision blah blah blah... he's a genius... anything I can do to make it real etc.."

He has a dream ?

Don't we all ?

To be fair, I think it's the fans delusion and naivety that annoys me more than what the band are asking. After all, people couldn't get away with stuff if people weren't allowing themselves to buy into it



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bleez
post Oct 4 2014, 02:17 PM
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QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Oct 4 2014, 02:04 PM) *
It's when the balance between the ask and the reward are so out of proportion it's unreal. Or if the asker is somebody who could, in reality, do more to be responsible for their project.

I read about Rob Zombie crowd funding a movie. Not sure if that's still going or not but that seemed way off to me.

yes, the wintersun and ones like that are way out of proportion, its ridiculous. The Rob Zombie one is the same. I remember thinking that the rewards were totally lame and the money he wanted was over the top. Also, I think crowd funding should be used by people who actually need it. I dont believe rob zombie does not have the resources to get a movie backed, he has access to money and already has some decent movies under his belt.

This post has been edited by bleez: Oct 4 2014, 02:18 PM


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klasaine
post Oct 4 2014, 05:28 PM
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I'm on the fence about it.
For an artistic project I can understand it. 'Artists' (and researchers) of all types have always been subsidized by those with more influence and more cash (benefactors, the church, a university, governments, the military, a corporation). But it seems to getting out of hand. I've seen crowdfunding requests for first time mortgages and new cars.

At this point I pay less and less attention to the kickstarter notifications I get. I've even gone so far as to inquire where my record was from an artist (that I know personally) who hasn't delivered. Hey, I delivered the $25.00 pledge on time, WTF?

*I have been involved in one 'Kickstarter' project (that I'm aware of). Raise $3,500.00 to master and press vinyl.


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Todd Simpson
post Oct 4 2014, 05:48 PM
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Hmm.. Well, if a band wands to make an album, and people want to pay it forward to help them do it, I don't see a problem? For most bands it doesn't work simply because they don't have enough traction. But for the bands that can make music this way, more power to em smile.gif

As for getting fans to fund your Sauna, wow. That's EXTREME alright. Music or otherwise. But again, it's just a request. Fans can vote with their wallet. BAD ROCK STAR NO SAUNA!! YOU IDIOT!!! Would be my personal response but to each his own smile.gif


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Oct 4 2014, 05:50 PM


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klasaine
post Oct 4 2014, 05:58 PM
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Also, it's pretty much a one time thing. I have yet to be solicited by a band/artist a second time ... and I def would not contribute a second time. The thinking is, "if they get no traction what's the point" and if they "get traction, then they don't need my money at the start".

*I feel we've reached or almost reached 'peak' Kickstarter.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Oct 5 2014, 03:43 PM


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Bogdan Radovic
post Oct 6 2014, 12:43 AM
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I'll just add that I know few "new" bands thinking in the following terms about the Crowdfunding thing: "Hey, I heard that you can just post an entry online and get money so that you can record your album. We should do it!". Those were bands with no traction whatsoever, no materials ready for the album and no PLAN.

I think this is just another "new thing online" that might blow out soon (or not!). People will always try to bring things to extreme and there will always be people who find it cool and follow up and fuel it. So it is not surprising to me to see "Fund me to buy new shower curtains" or other setups. People WILL try to find the funniest, most original and weird funding projects for sure.

When it comes to music, it does bring in a new dimension. It allows to engage the band fans in an entirely new dimension - make them part of the process itself. Basically, they support their band in the process of making music (or recording the end result). When these projects have good returns for the supporters (like CDs, Autographs, Tshirts etc) - it can be fun for everyone. This is something which surely allowed many artists to get the needed funds which they for this or that reason wouldn't manage on their own, locally etc.

I would think that artists who make creative funding projects and succeed at getting support by their fans are actually still "doing it on their own and deserving" in a way? They are not getting funds from their parents or relatives (or found them fall from the sky) so in fact they are doing it on their own following life possibilities they have on their hands. But as Ken mentioned, there are artists who managed to pass the "support part" but failed on delivery which kills the whole thing so it is not enough just to get the support.

I think I'm going to read more about this (crowd funding) in general. I have seen many creative projects and even revolutionary ones (technology etc) but I really wonder - how many of them really delivered and made something great and accessible to ordinary people?

Do I think fans should pay artists to produce music? (in advance)
Not really unless motivated and part of bigger strategy.

Do I think good quality and creative artists should be able to find way to their fans no matter what their circumstances are?
Yes. Every artist should be able to achieve what they dream of as long as they set their goals realistically and work hard towards it. Especially in this age when ANYONE can upload music online and get "discovered" that way.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 6 2014, 08:50 AM
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I think that crowdfunding, like a lot of other so called 'controversial' things/instruments on the internet can be a good thing, if you learn to use it wisely and responsibly.

Look at Sevendust for instance - they are a big band out there, trying to make a living. They are not big enough to stop worrying, but not small either. They resorted to crowdfunding for their latest album - Time travelers and bonfires - a completely acoustic album, half with new tunes and hafl with old ones that had no previous acoustic versions. They set a deadline and a limit of 200 000 bucks. They got 285 000 bucks, because they have a big following around the world! I was really happy to see them make it because their music is worth it for certain and they seem to be amazing and down to earth.

I think that crowd funding should be limited to a certain type of project, but it's up to the public to decide what they wanna spend their money on and what they believe in. I say that if someone believes in something hard enough and manages to make others believe as well, chances are that that project will succeed. I for one would never dare to ask money to build a big house for comfort laugh.gif because that's how it seemed in the description tongue.gif But if I would want to build a school, I would certainly ask money for that smile.gif


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 6 2014, 02:10 PM
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Hey guys! This is a nice topic and I would like to share my humble opinion. I wonder if you guys have seen this documental...



Music industry is very hard for musicians, even for those that anytime sold million of albums. I think that every idea that can be a tool for musicians to increase their music and recordings quality is a great idea. Nobody is obliged to send money here, it's just for people that want to support a project that captures their heart, and for any or other reason feels that want to be part of it.

Honestly, I cannot see a bad side of this type of initiatives. This doesn't work as a sect, this is not a scam, it's just artists that present project ideas and fans that decide to support it. What's the difference between paying some kind of pre-order with special presents to support a band that I like and paying many dollars for a ticket for a concert? Just that I pay in advance, well, maybe, but nobody is obliged to do it....

Let's put it closer, let's say that Cosmin decides to start a project for his band, to record their next album in the best studio at Europe. I can say that I would be really happy to help, and maybe, if many people helps, they won't not only record a great sounding album, they will be able to record video and share the whole experience with us... that's wonderful.

On the other hand, if a band that I like has a project that I feel it's not right... let's say that Motley Crue says, "hey guys! Out project is to get very expensive cars and get party at Los Angeles", I will say, ok, work for it! hahahaha. tongue.gif But, it's my decision to help for it or not, I won't judge them, or judge the cowdfunding idea.


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klasaine
post Oct 7 2014, 08:46 AM
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This one's rather interesting ... https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/164937...a-close-goodbye
A kickstarter fund for a guy that's quitting music.


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Cosmin Lupu
post Oct 7 2014, 03:32 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Oct 6 2014, 01:10 PM) *
Hey guys! This is a nice topic and I would like to share my humble opinion. I wonder if you guys have seen this documental...



Music industry is very hard for musicians, even for those that anytime sold million of albums. I think that every idea that can be a tool for musicians to increase their music and recordings quality is a great idea. Nobody is obliged to send money here, it's just for people that want to support a project that captures their heart, and for any or other reason feels that want to be part of it.

Honestly, I cannot see a bad side of this type of initiatives. This doesn't work as a sect, this is not a scam, it's just artists that present project ideas and fans that decide to support it. What's the difference between paying some kind of pre-order with special presents to support a band that I like and paying many dollars for a ticket for a concert? Just that I pay in advance, well, maybe, but nobody is obliged to do it....

Let's put it closer, let's say that Cosmin decides to start a project for his band, to record their next album in the best studio at Europe. I can say that I would be really happy to help, and maybe, if many people helps, they won't not only record a great sounding album, they will be able to record video and share the whole experience with us... that's wonderful.

On the other hand, if a band that I like has a project that I feel it's not right... let's say that Motley Crue says, "hey guys! Out project is to get very expensive cars and get party at Los Angeles", I will say, ok, work for it! hahahaha. tongue.gif But, it's my decision to help for it or not, I won't judge them, or judge the cowdfunding idea.


Thank you man! I would most likely do the same for Cirse, if you guys would ever decide to start a campaign. It's clear to me, that the purpose of each campaign is the one that decides what the followers will instinctively do smile.gif Imagine that if 5000 people would give 1 dolar - a band would have 5000 dollars. There's a lot you can do with that sort of money!


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Oct 7 2014, 03:39 PM
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QUOTE (Cosmin Lupu @ Oct 7 2014, 11:32 AM) *
Thank you man! I would most likely do the same for Cirse, if you guys would ever decide to start a campaign. It's clear to me, that the purpose of each campaign is the one that decides what the followers will instinctively do smile.gif Imagine that if 5000 people would give 1 dolar - a band would have 5000 dollars. There's a lot you can do with that sort of money!



Definitely! If my band would receive that kind of support, we would be able to record best sounding albums, more often, make more produced gigs, tour on other countries... this means that thanks to the fans support, a band can become better, and me, not only as a musician, also as a fan of music, think that it's great!


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SirJamsalot
post Oct 7 2014, 08:35 PM
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As with all things, research what you're going to invest in. If you don't want them to have a sauna on your dime, don't givem a dime smile.gif In many/most cases they won't tell you what they intend to do with ALL the money, but you have the right to contact them. If you can't get an answer, then don't.

I love the crowdfunding idea - I see no problem with people asking for help. Those requesting money, though, ought to be transparent on how the money is intended and actually spent. But not everyone thinks about that. It's your money til you give it away, so do your research first!

My opinion smile.gif
Cheers!

This post has been edited by SirJamsalot: Oct 7 2014, 09:05 PM


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post Oct 7 2014, 09:50 PM
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I've thought about crowd funding just because I want to retire.

Just be blatantly honest as hell...

The Make Spock Rich Fund...
I need money so I can pay my house off and quit my job to pursue other interest. Please give me some money and get out of my face. Thanks for your generosity - with your help, I can be independently wealthy.


Hope it goes viral.

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Saoirse O'Shea
post Oct 8 2014, 12:14 PM
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I think that there are two separate issues:

1/ crowdfunding a record release

I have little isue with this provided that the artist does release the record and that any funds are properly accounted for and used as stated for the production and release of the project.


and

2/ 'buy me a professional studio'

Do the same as every professional studio and work to establish your business either to be able to buy equipment etc outright or be able to get a mortgage. Whilst he's at get the 30 odd years experience I have as a mastering engineer and the 1000s of releases that I've been involved in and pay your dues. Stop expecting a free lunch and stop insulting the experience of pro engineers and pro studios.


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SirJamsalot
post Oct 8 2014, 07:20 PM
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QUOTE (tonymiro @ Oct 8 2014, 04:14 AM) *
I think that there are two separate issues:

...

2/ 'buy me a professional studio'

Do the same as every professional studio and work to establish your business either to be able to buy equipment etc outright or be able to get a mortgage. Whilst he's at get the 30 odd years experience I have as a mastering engineer and the 1000s of releases that I've been involved in and pay your dues. Stop expecting a free lunch and stop insulting the experience of pro engineers and pro studios.


Well said.

(1:05 - couldn't find a short snippet for one of my favorite quotes by Jack Burton)


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Todd Simpson
post Oct 9 2014, 04:24 AM
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Fine pull sir smile.gif Best. Movie. Ever..

QUOTE (SirJamsalot @ Oct 8 2014, 02:20 PM) *
Well said.

(1:05 - couldn't find a short snippet for one of my favorite quotes by Jack Burton)



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