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SirJamsalot
post Nov 15 2014, 08:10 AM
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commercial song writing - what labels / consumers are looking for - pretty interesting.
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/14278128

edit:
Faster to read these than watch the video
Part 1
http://www.taxi.com/transmitter/1409/what-...pping-song.html

Part 2
http://www.taxi.com/transmitter/1410/what-...ing-song-2.html




This post has been edited by SirJamsalot: Nov 15 2014, 08:34 AM


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Nov 15 2014, 07:03 PM
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This is very interesting. I'll save it for reading later. Thanks a lot for sharing! smile.gif


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Cosmin Lupu
post Nov 15 2014, 07:16 PM
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I also added it to my 'watch later' list wink.gif Thanks for sharing this, mate!


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SirJamsalot
post Nov 15 2014, 09:00 PM
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Just an FYI - I'd actually read the links before bothering with the video. It sums it all up nicely.

The articles touch solely on being marketable - if you're an artist, don't bother. If you want be marketable to labels / t.v. / movies / ... etc., he explains these industries understand who the target audience is (via statistics), and what they expect to hear (Forms of writing).

This is a good insight into how the industry thinks, in terms of being profitable - not how the artist thinks (I just wanna play what I feel, and never be heard by more than my family smile.gif in the music business.

This post has been edited by SirJamsalot: Nov 15 2014, 09:03 PM


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PosterBoy
post Nov 16 2014, 08:51 AM
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Just to add don't join Taxi, a professional songwriting friend of mine told me they are a complete waste of time and money, not to say the video information isn't helpful just them as an organisation!


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Cosmin Lupu
post Nov 16 2014, 08:55 AM
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QUOTE (SirJamsalot @ Nov 15 2014, 08:00 PM) *
Just an FYI - I'd actually read the links before bothering with the video. It sums it all up nicely.

The articles touch solely on being marketable - if you're an artist, don't bother. If you want be marketable to labels / t.v. / movies / ... etc., he explains these industries understand who the target audience is (via statistics), and what they expect to hear (Forms of writing).

This is a good insight into how the industry thinks, in terms of being profitable - not how the artist thinks (I just wanna play what I feel, and never be heard by more than my family smile.gif in the music business.


I think that if you want to make a career in the business, it's important to know the recipies and the approaches, so this article is very welcome if you ask me wink.gif I would be curious to see if I am able to write a piece for a commercial or another more 'non-artistic' purpose smile.gif Just as a test, I think - have you guys been commissioned to do such a thing so far?


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klasaine
post Nov 16 2014, 03:35 PM
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QUOTE (PosterBoy @ Nov 16 2014, 12:51 AM) *
Just to add don't join Taxi, a professional songwriting friend of mine told me they are a complete waste of time and money, not to say the video information isn't helpful just them as an organisation!


I second this.
I've done a ton of demos over the years for guys and gals associated with TAXI. None of them ever had a song picked up. TAXI is a 'for profit' company. You pay a yearly membership fee ($300) and a per song submission fee ($5).

It's not a scam or anything like that and they do have verifiable success stories. it's just that they have literally tens of thousands of artists that they pitch for. They make their money off the few handfuls that they know consistently sell songs and the yearly membership fees of the other 30,000.

The best thing they do is send you (monthly) a list of artists, record cos, production cos, etc. that are looking for material and what it is that they think they might want.

The info about knowing what an artist or a movie/tv/record company wants is good (though very general).

In my experience, if you want to sell songs or get stuff placed in movies and TV you need to reside in an 'industry' town and you need to play out all the time. Go to open mics, meet people and get up with a guitar and sing your songs.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Nov 16 2014, 04:01 PM


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SirJamsalot
post Nov 16 2014, 06:42 PM
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I purchased and read Murphy's book (Murhpy's Laws of Songwriting) 2 nights ago. He's got a lot of interesting stories and plenty of good advice on writing lyrics - he goes over the 6 forms of song, but overall the book is really disorganized. I'm gathing all the parts into a synopsis. I'll post that when i finish it.



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klasaine
post Nov 16 2014, 07:40 PM
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Anyone who wants to sell a song or be a professional musician should probably read these books ...

http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Record-P...n/dp/0879309482
http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Better-ab...keywords=kashif
http://www.amazon.com/You-Never-Give-Your-...e+me+your+money
http://www.amazon.com/Need-Know-About-Musi...Q2PPCDB7K094532
http://www.amazon.com/Platinum-Rainbow-Suc...latinum+rainbow

They were written by folks that actually had/have careers in the music business not only as music 'business people' but as artists/writers/producers. These are not always happy, 'feel good' books about how awesome it is that you're a creative person. They are not books that tell you how to tap into your inner warrior spirit and they will say a whole lotta crap you probably don't want to hear. But don't mistake that with negativity. These are people that made it. They just tell you the truth thru their experience in the business. Most of it in a very 'matter of fact' manner.
*It is assumed before you even open the text that 1) you are somewhat creative and can write a decent tune and 2) have a little of the warrior in you already.

Any source that tells you that there's 'one' way to do it or you 'have to do this' or 'these are the 7 things that all successful people/musicians do' - is completely full of shit. To his credit, Ralph Murphy even says that what he likes and what he thinks will sell are completely different things and over decades he's trained himself to differentiate between the two. There is no one way and there is no 'secret' formula to hit (sellable) songwriting. If there was then there'd be no Black Sabbath, No Beethoven, No Fugees or Lauryn Hill, No massive Ukelele resurgence, No Joe Satriani, No popular 'looper' artists like David Sheeran, No White Stripes, No Johnny Cash, No St. Vincent, No Rush, Pink Floyd, Jimi Hendrix or Metallica, etc. The only 'constant' is you gotta go out there (physically and via the internet) and meet people and present your material - any material ... CONSTANTLY! Nobody is looking for you or your songs. You have to show it to them.

People who make their living writing and selling songs/music do it every day.
You gotta write, record and submit a truck load of material before even just one thing gets 'picked up'. You cannot be discouraged by rejection (which is most of the time - nothing personal, that's business). There are a lot of folks out there that write, record and submit tunes constantly. They religiously read Variety, Billboard and the Hollywood Reporter to find out what and who are in production.

There are also music production companies that record what's known as 'library music'. Generally sound-a-like tracks that are usually instrumental and designed to sound like something that you know yet avoid any copyright infringement. They're used for cheap tv and radio commercials, training films, in-store/in-flight advertisement or entertainment, fake background music for a scene in movie (at the school dance or carnival for example), movie trailers (that's an entire separate industry), news programs, what used to called Muzak, etc.
Here's one of the biggest - Megatrax ... http://www.megatrax.com/browse.php
They will record 50 or more songs in a day as well as farm stuff out to smaller personal studios. Then submit literally hundreds of works per month to publishing companies, jingle houses, movie studios, etc. This is why it's called the music industry.

"You throw enough shit against the wall, some of it's bound to stick".

This post has been edited by klasaine: Nov 16 2014, 11:32 PM


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SirJamsalot
post Nov 17 2014, 02:13 AM
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I'm sure these books have some relevancy to the business side of things ~ you know, dealing with labels, etc. My topic was more along the lines of writing to a target audience, and why you might want to. The links I provide go into a comparison of all the #1 hits across a few decades to compare what they all have in common, and then delve into how to create songs using the structure that managed to make it to the top, consistently. The book I read went some interesting rabbit trails discussing that labels/movie producers, stores like KMart - actually do the research on human behavior for their stores, and look for music that best benefits their particular market. Just interesting stuff. Anyhoo, I'll post my synopsis of the book. Perhaps as a complementary post, you might like to post a synopsis of one of the books you read on the business side of things, just to round out the discussion a bit.

Chris!


QUOTE (klasaine @ Nov 16 2014, 11:40 AM) *
Anyone who wants to sell a song or be a professional musician should probably read these books ...

http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Record-P...n/dp/0879309482
http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Better-ab...keywords=kashif
http://www.amazon.com/You-Never-Give-Your-...e+me+your+money
http://www.amazon.com/Need-Know-About-Musi...Q2PPCDB7K094532
http://www.amazon.com/Platinum-Rainbow-Suc...latinum+rainbow

They were written by folks that actually had/have careers in the music business not only as music 'business people' but as artists/writers/producers. These are not always happy, 'feel good' books about how awesome it is that you're a creative person. They are not books that tell you how to tap into your inner warrior spirit and they will say a whole lotta crap you probably don't want to hear. But don't mistake that with negativity. These are people that made it. They just tell you the truth thru their experience in the business. Most of it in a very 'matter of fact' manner.
*It is assumed before you even open the text that 1) you are somewhat creative and can write a decent tune and 2) have a little of the warrior in you already.

Any source that tells you that there's 'one' way to do it or you 'have to do this' or 'these are the 7 things that all successful people/musicians do' - is completely full of shit. To his credit, Ralph Murphy even says that what he likes and what he thinks will sell are completely different things and over decades he's trained himself to differentiate between the two. There is no one way and there is no 'secret' formula to hit (sellable) songwriting. If there was then there'd be no Black Sabbath, No Beethoven, No Fugees or Lauryn Hill, No massive Ukelele resurgence, No Joe Satriani, No popular 'looper' artists like David Sheeran, No White Stripes, No Johnny Cash, No St. Vincent, No Rush, Pink Floyd, Jimi Hendrix or Metallica, etc. The only 'constant' is you gotta go out there (physically and via the internet) and meet people and present your material - any material ... CONSTANTLY! Nobody is looking for you or your songs. You have to show it to them.

People who make their living writing and selling songs/music do it every day.
You gotta write, record and submit a truck load of material before even just one thing gets 'picked up'. You cannot be discouraged by rejection (which is most of the time - nothing personal, that's business). There are a lot of folks out there that write, record and submit tunes constantly. They religiously read Variety, Billboard and the Hollywood Reporter to find out what and who are in production.

There are also music production companies that record what's known as 'library music'. Generally sound-a-like tracks that are usually instrumental and designed to sound like something that you know yet avoid any copyright infringement. They're used for cheap tv and radio commercials, training films, in-store/in-flight advertisement or entertainment, fake background music for a scene in movie (at the school dance or carnival for example), movie trailers (that's an entire separate industry), news programs, what used to called Muzak, etc.
Here's one of the biggest - Megatrax ... http://www.megatrax.com/browse.php
They will record 50 or more songs in a day as well as farm stuff out to smaller personal studios. Then submit literally hundreds of works per month to publishing companies, jingle houses, movie studios, etc. This is why it's called the music industry.

"You throw enough shit against the wall, some of it's bound to stick".



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Cosmin Lupu
post Nov 17 2014, 09:14 AM
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Great input here guys - Jams, I am looking foward to read your thoughts on that book - maybe I'll get it too if it's good enough. I don't mind sumarizing things up for myself - it's usually how I learn anyway wink.gif


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klasaine
post Nov 17 2014, 04:15 PM
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For me, the Kashif book had the best info in it. What publishing companies actually do. What an actual contract (publishing, licensing, distribution, etc.) really has in it. How licensing cos. work. What all the various 'standard' clauses in a contract really mean, etc.

No hit songwriter or performer ever read a book about how to write a 'hit' song.
As musicians we have the most accessible, pertinent and concrete information at our fingertips for free, 24/7/365 ... other hit songs. Copy them, tear them apart, study them. That's what successful songwriters did/do. It's no accident that most every new hit artist (in all genres) in the beginning of their career sound at least a little bit and many times a lot like someone else or some other band. The truly good ones then evolve into their own thing ... eventually to influence and be 'copied' by someone else.

I think that pure pop sensibilities have to be exactly that - sensibilities in that they have to be sensible (what are folks into now?) and authentic (do you dig what you're trying to do?). I don't believe that you can write a pop song by the numbers and sell it. You have to believe it ... so that other folks will believe it.

*In my own personal experience I've always worked with and for artists that were I guess the 'exception to the rule' but some how seemed to sell records and fill a venue. Also, as a freelancer my musical eccentricities and quirky leanings are the things that get me gigs - go figure.

Here's another book that tracks one hit songwriter's personal development (what 'he' did - not necessarily what you should do) and he does discuss some nuts and bolts of song 'form' and even a bit of basic music theory.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/614772.Tunesmith
It's particularly interesting because this guy had at least 20 top ten singles, a dozen platinum selling singles, two Grammys for best song and wrote for artists as diverse as Frank Sinatra, Toto and Johnny Cash.
None his hits follow the 'rules' of pop songwriting (other than just being great songs). Sometimes they're long. Some have odd-time measures. Non symmetrical bar structure. No chorus. All chorus. Weird key changes. Title never mentioned in the song (a ton of Dylan and Neil Young tunes do that too), etc., etc., etc.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Nov 17 2014, 07:06 PM


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SirJamsalot
post Nov 18 2014, 12:57 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Nov 17 2014, 08:15 AM) *
For me, the Kashif book had the best info in it. What publishing companies actually do. What an actual contract (publishing, licensing, distribution, etc.) really has in it. How licensing cos. work. What all the various 'standard' clauses in a contract really mean, etc.

No hit songwriter or performer ever read a book about how to write a 'hit' song.


Below you kind of negate this statement by giving examples of top-artists who employ writers to write their material. The artists haven't read the books, but the writers I'm sure have, or at least study what has been succesful in the past. Here are some more #1 hits that employ other writers.

Wind Beneath My Wings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_Beneath_My_Wings

This is How We Roll
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Is_How_We_Roll


QUOTE
As musicians we have the most accessible, pertinent and concrete information at our fingertips for free, 24/7/365 ... other hit songs. Copy them, tear them apart, study them. That's what successful songwriters did/do. It's no accident that most every new hit artist (in all genres) in the beginning of their career sound at least a little bit and many times a lot like someone else or some other band. The truly good ones then evolve into their own thing ... eventually to influence and be 'copied' by someone else.

I think that pure pop sensibilities have to be exactly that - sensibilities in that they have to be sensible (what are folks into now?) and authentic (do you dig what you're trying to do?). I don't believe that you can write a pop song by the numbers and sell it. You have to believe it ... so that other folks will believe it.

*In my own personal experience I've always worked with and for artists that were I guess the 'exception to the rule' but some how seemed to sell records and fill a venue. Also, as a freelancer my musical eccentricities and quirky leanings are the things that get me gigs - go figure.

Here's another book that tracks one hit songwriter's personal development (what 'he' did - not necessarily what you should do) and he does discuss some nuts and bolts of song 'form' and even a bit of basic music theory.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/614772.Tunesmith
It's particularly interesting because this guy had at least 20 top ten singles, a dozen platinum selling singles, two Grammys for best song and wrote for artists as diverse as Frank Sinatra, Toto and Johnny Cash.
None his hits follow the 'rules' of pop songwriting (other than just being great songs). Sometimes they're long. Some have odd-time measures. Non symmetrical bar structure. No chorus. All chorus. Weird key changes. Title never mentioned in the song (a ton of Dylan and Neil Young tunes do that too), etc., etc., etc.


Makes sense, though I'm betting you can categorize Sinatra/Toto and Cash as following one of the 6 song writing forms. I'll break apart a song from each and try to demonstrate it, if I'm right, or serve to knock down the theory if I'm wrong smile.gif

Also, Murphy in his book makes the case that live performances at night-time are not the same as drive-time audiences. Night time audiences look for intimate settings, and really don't care so much about the song as the environment. He did a study on how people actually rate a night at a live event -

1. Cool personality on stage
2. great food
3. You're a great singer!
4...
5... nice song.

Drive-by audiences have a different expectation and criteria for listening than those at a bar at night.

I'm of the opinion so far that studying what other writers have done to result in top-hits will give you "those sensibilities", in so much as they were successful to create a hit smile.gif That's basically my premise for investigating Murphy's book.

And to be fair to the artist - I don't believe that adhering to a writing form hampers an artist's ability to create art. Shakespear could have written his works in any form and still accomplished amazing work because of his word-choices, and imagery, humor, irony, story telling, etc... not because of his paragraph structure.

People (listeners) have grown to expect certain song formulas (rhyme schemes, what happens after a solo, etc.) - and they feel a little less comfortable when a song steps outside of the what they have grown to expect. That doesn't mean you can't have a #1 hit - people are quirky, but historically speaking - it's rare - you just don't find it in #1 hits.

Just because you write in #1 hit form doesn't mean you'll have a #1 hit - that's also not my premise. But to contend for a #1 hit, it will need to conform to some rules, which is what my post is about.

Cheers!

So I did a quick survey of Toto - they had a top hit - Africa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa_(Toto_..._certifications

it adheres to the 4th (or 5th? can't remember without my notes!) form, almost verbatim

Vers/prechorus/chorus (title)/Bridge/chorus->out

It also adheres to the rule that the verse rhyme scheme is different than the chorus rhyme scheme, and that chorus (title line) not rhyme with anything in the chorus or verse - so that it stands out.

The rhyme scheme is:
Verse: ABAB
PreChorus: C
Chorus: AABC


I hear the drums echoing tonight
But she hears only whispers of some quiet conversation
She's coming in twelve-thirty flight
Her moonlit wings reflect the stars that guide me towards salvation

I stopped an old man along the way
Hoping to find some old forgotten words or ancient melodies
He turned to me as if to say:

Pre-Chorus
"Hurry boy, it's waiting there for you"

[Chorus:]
It's gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
There's nothing that a hundred men or more could ever do
I bless the rains down in Africa -- Title - no rhyme
Gonna take some time to do the things we never had

The wild dogs cry out in the night
As they grow restless longing for some solitary company
I know that I must do what's right
Sure as Kilimanjaro rises like Olympus above the Serengeti
I seek to cure what's deep inside, frightened of this thing that I've become

[Repeat chorus]

[Instrumental break]

Hurry boy, she's waiting there for you

[Repeat chorus]

This post has been edited by SirJamsalot: Nov 18 2014, 01:04 AM


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klasaine
post Nov 18 2014, 01:28 AM
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QUOTE (SirJamsalot @ Nov 17 2014, 04:57 PM) *
Below you kind of negate this statement by giving examples of top-artists who employ writers to write their material. The artists haven't read the books, but the writers I'm sure have, or at least study what has been succesful in the past.


The writer who wrote the hits for the artists I mentioned absolutely studied 'songwriting' it's just that there weren't any books about it back then wink.gif (other than volumes on classical 'form'). General (popular) song form hasn't changed too much since the late 19th century. Verse, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Verse, Chorus and out - or some slight variant of that.

I completely agree that studying hit songs and hit songwriters is advantageous to improve your writing. I don't agree though that you need to read books about it. You just need to study the songs themselves. I also find that the truly great ones whether they hit No. 1 or only make it to No. 23 have something unique, even if it's just one little drum fill or a measure of 3/4 (Joan Jett's 'I Love R&R') that you'd never notice unless you ripped it apart. Playing in a top 40 band has it's 'educational' benefits.

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SirJamsalot
post Nov 18 2014, 02:23 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Nov 17 2014, 05:28 PM) *
The writer who wrote the hits for the artists I mentioned absolutely studied 'songwriting' it's just that there weren't any books about it back then wink.gif (other than volumes on classical 'form'). General (popular) song form hasn't changed too much since the late 19th century. Verse, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Verse, Chorus and out - or some slight variant of that.

I completely agree that studying hit songs and hit songwriters is advantageous to improve your writing. I don't agree though that you need to read books about it. You just need to study the songs themselves. I also find that the truly great ones whether they hit No. 1 or only make it to No. 23 have something unique, even if it's just one little drum fill or a measure of 3/4 (Joan Jett's 'I Love R&R') that you'd never notice unless you ripped it apart. Playing in a top 40 band has it's 'educational' benefits.


Playing in a band definitely does! The Beatles did just that! And they play what they grew up playing!

Well, I'm not saying anyone needs to read books about it - but I think you should!

Reading doesn't replace playing - it supplements it. It's not a zero sum game. If you're an artist who wants to make money, you have to make a product that people want. If you want to sell to an Indie record that wants you to break the rules, that works! Go for it. People who study and know the rules can always break them. However people who don't know the rules, will never be able to produce what is expected because they never studied them.

Playing in a band doesn't teach you what people want - learning from others who have succeeded (their descriptions of what works and what doesn't) is much better than spending years re-inventing the wheel and falling in the same holes they did. I'm not saying you can't make money doing things your own way, but I am saying that based on what I've been reading lately, it seems apparent that those with the deepest pockets expect certain things because they tend to a market that expects it that way. You limit your potential market by not studying that market.

Tearing apart songs is essential to learn how to write them - if you have no intention of writing music for Walmart, or the next BlockBuster movie, you just wanna be an indie player that doesn't stoop to the big capitalist agenda, I hear that. But if you can do both, one has a better chance of supporting the other financially wink.gif

smile.gif

Also - per your statement

"General (popular) song form hasn't changed too much since the late 19th century. Verse, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Verse, Chorus and out - or some slight variant of that."

the 1930's format was Verse/Chorus.
Rudolph the RedNosed Reindeer, and songs like that. Vastly different in format because it tended to how professional song writers meshed with the business model. Back then, writers (Walt Disney, firms like that) employed song writers who had office hours, and they would write the chorus first. If the chorus worked, they were told to "finish it", in which case they would support the chorus with the opening verse.

That doesn't mean the V2CV2C didn't exist, it just means that what was popularized was due to what the industry expected - and people grew to expect in turn.



QUOTE (SirJamsalot @ Nov 17 2014, 06:02 PM) *
Playing in a band definitely does! The Beatles did just that! And they play what they grew up playing!

Well, I'm not saying anyone needs to read books about it - but I think you should!

Reading doesn't replace playing - it supplements it. It's not a zero sum game. If you're an artist who wants to make money, you have to make a product that people want. If you want to sell to an Indie record that wants you to break the rules, that works! Go for it. People who study and know the rules can always break them. However people who don't know the rules, will never be able to produce what is expected because they never studied them.

Playing in a band doesn't teach you what people want - learning from others who have succeeded (their descriptions of what works and what doesn't) is much better than spending years re-inventing the wheel and falling in the same holes they did. I'm not saying you can't make money doing things your own way, but I am saying that based on what I've been reading lately, it seems apparent that those with the deepest pockets expect certain things because they tend to a market that expects it that way. You limit your potential market by not studying that market.

Tearing apart songs is essential to learn how to write them - if you have no intention of writing music for Walmart, or the next BlockBuster movie, you just wanna be an indie player that doesn't stoop to the big capitalist agenda, I hear that. But if you can do both, one has a better chance of supporting the other financially wink.gif

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klasaine
post Nov 18 2014, 04:13 AM
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QUOTE (SirJamsalot @ Nov 17 2014, 06:23 PM) *
the 1930's format was Verse/Chorus.
Rudolph the RedNosed Reindeer, and songs like that. Vastly different in format because it tended to how professional song writers meshed with the business model. Back then, writers (Walt Disney, firms like that) employed song writers who had office hours, and they would write the chorus first. If the chorus worked, they were told to "finish it", in which case they would support the chorus with the opening verse.

That doesn't mean the V2CV2C didn't exist, it just means that what was popularized was due to what the industry expected - and people grew to expect in turn.


Agreed. The simple 'verse/chorus' (no bridge) was a very popular variation at different times throughout the last 100 years and even now there's plenty of V/C only hits. I think what I was getting at is that the general arrangement of verses/choruses/bridge or something using those parts in combination is and has been ubiquitous in popular music for a long time.

*Here's one of the exceptions from the '30s ...
'Night and Day' by Cole Porter, No.1 in 1932 (Bing Crosby singing) and again in '34 and still a 'standard' today.
48 bars, divided into 6 sections of 8 bars - A B A B C B - with C representing the bridge.





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SirJamsalot
post Nov 18 2014, 06:57 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Nov 17 2014, 08:13 PM) *
Agreed. The simple 'verse/chorus' (no bridge) was a very popular variation at different times throughout the last 100 years and even now there's plenty of V/C only hits. I think what I was getting at is that the general arrangement of verses/choruses/bridge or something using those parts in combination is and has been ubiquitous in popular music for a long time.

*Here's one of the exceptions from the '30s ...
'Night and Day' by Cole Porter, No.1 in 1932 (Bing Crosby singing) and again in '34 and still a 'standard' today.
48 bars, divided into 6 sections of 8 bars - A B A B C B - with C representing the bridge.


I'll give a listen and add that to my exceptions section where I show deviations from the norm that made it smile.gif
Love Bing Crosby biggrin.gif I'm a sucker for some of the oldies.

Cheers!


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klasaine
post Nov 18 2014, 07:35 AM
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Here's something (I find interesting) to look into in your research ...

Many of the 'old' tunes, for example Embraceable You, At Last, Bewitched, Have you Met Miss Jones, Autumn Leaves, It Had to be You, Come Fly w/Me, As Time Goes By, etc. have been pared down to only the chorus sections since they first appeared (many times in musicals). They called it the refrain (chorus). When performed as 'stand-alone' songs what they originally referred to as the 'verse' is rarely performed anymore. *Some cabaret singers will do the original verse in order to set up lyrically the point of the Chorus (refrain). What we now think of as those standard songs is many times just the chorus.

That sort of falls in line with "don't bore us, get to the chorus".

*I had no idea about this until I backed up a cabaret singer in the early 90s and started doing musicals in the pit band.
This tome has all the 'verses' to a ton of those tunes ... http://www.shermusic.com/new/1883217091.shtml
I think you can find a free PDF of it on-line

This post has been edited by klasaine: Nov 18 2014, 07:02 PM


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SirJamsalot
post Nov 18 2014, 09:02 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Nov 17 2014, 11:35 PM) *
Here's something (I find interesting) to look into in your research ...

Many of the 'old' tunes, for example Embraceable You, At Last, Bewitched, Have you Met Miss Jones, Autumn Leaves, It Had to be You, Come Fly w/Me, As Time Goes By, etc. have been pared down to only the chorus sections since they first appeared (many times in musicals). They called it the refrain (chorus). When performed as 'stand-alone' songs what they originally referred to as the 'verse' is rarely performed anymore. *Some cabaret singers will do the original verse in order to set up lyrically the point of the Chorus (refrain). What we now think of as those standard songs is many times just the chorus.

That sort of falls in line with "don't bore us, get to the chorus".

*I had no idea about this until I backed up a cabaret singer in the early 90s and started doing musicals in the pit band.
This tome has all the 'verses' to a ton of those tunes ... http://www.shermusic.com/new/1883217091.shtml
I think you can find a free PDF of it on-line


Fascinating. I know that radio has a slightly different criteria than other mediums - in part because listeners come and go, and coming in mid-way into a song, they need to retain the "chorus" in "don't bore us" factor smile.gif

I'll look up the pdf.

It's funny, I'm trying to write a summary of what I learn, but the summary is turning into an essay - I've already 3 pages in. I'll add pictures and sample videos though, to make it more fun/interactive to read.

Chris!


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Cosmin Lupu
post Nov 19 2014, 10:43 AM
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QUOTE (SirJamsalot @ Nov 18 2014, 08:02 PM) *
Fascinating. I know that radio has a slightly different criteria than other mediums - in part because listeners come and go, and coming in mid-way into a song, they need to retain the "chorus" in "don't bore us" factor smile.gif

I'll look up the pdf.

It's funny, I'm trying to write a summary of what I learn, but the summary is turning into an essay - I've already 3 pages in. I'll add pictures and sample videos though, to make it more fun/interactive to read.

Chris!


Isn't it funny how it always ends up this way? We try to write something short, but our experience turns out to be so much more and our thoughts add up and hey - there we go, we have an essay biggrin.gif Looking forward to read it, man smile.gif


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