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Todd Simpson
post Dec 7 2014, 06:25 PM
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Easy there big guy!! smile.gif Just chatting in a forum about guns and such smile.gif No need to get in a twisty.

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Dec 6 2014, 04:11 PM) *
you are saying things that are flat out not true
In rich's post # 53 there is a law about not letting those with known mental illnesses not possessing firearms of which I am fully in agreement with.but with our Laws , you are innocent until proven guilty .
You need to stop putting words in my mouth I did not say and don't think
There are numerous incidents were you fudged the Truth ( in this thread alone)
and saying Negatives that I did not say (which are impossible to disprove) , In my opinion, can easily mislead someone, who does not know me,and give them a negative impression of were I truly stand . A proven tactic of the Left is to smear and I have to say you are wondering pretty close to that cilff


I agree smile.gif GUNS are not the problem. Guns don't kill people, crazy people kill people. or those in a "crazed" state, from the look at the stats. I"m for trying to limit crazy people getting near assault weapons and maybe cutting down on mass shootings a bit?

QUOTE (fkalich @ Dec 7 2014, 09:50 AM) *
Read that list item by item, say go to the 50's and 60's and read each item. Then go to recent times and do the same. It should be clear to you that what we see today was rare to non-existent if you go back 40 or 50 years. Shootings occurred, but not mass shootings. They were personal disputes for the most part, or associated in committing some crime. not loony's deciding to take out as many random people as they do now, for no reason other than insanity.

The problem is not guns, we have always had guns. The problem is too much fantasy land entertainment (electronic media) in modern culture (including what we call the "news").


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AK Rich
post Dec 7 2014, 06:38 PM
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QUOTE (fkalich @ Dec 7 2014, 05:50 AM) *
Read that list item by item, say go to the 50's and 60's and read each item. Then go to recent times and do the same. It should be clear to you that what we see today was rare to non-existent if you go back 40 or 50 years. Shootings occurred, but not mass shootings. They were personal disputes for the most part, or associated in committing some crime. not loony's deciding to take out as many random people as they do now, for no reason other than insanity.

The problem is not guns, we have always had guns. The problem is too much fantasy land entertainment (electronic media) in modern culture (including what we call the "news").

There is also some concern about the side affects of Psychotropic drugs used to treat ADD/ADHD (Ritalin etc) such as psychosis and suicidal ideation. I believe it is known that over the years that these drugs have been over and misprescribed as well as abused.

https://healthwatcher.wordpress.com/2008/02...hool-shootings/
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Todd Simpson
post Dec 7 2014, 06:48 PM
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I'm sure they are not helping things!! Hopefully as we move forward as a Country we can all come to some sort of understanding and agreement on the dangers of allowing folks with serious mental illness to arm themselves. It's going to be a very thorny issue with lots off divided thought, but it's a conversation that I think our Country needs to have.


QUOTE (AK Rich @ Dec 7 2014, 01:38 PM) *
There is also some concern about the side affects of Psychotropic drugs used to treat ADD/ADHD (Ritalin etc) such as psychosis and suicidal ideation. I believe it is known that over the years that these drugs have been over and misprescribed as well as abused.

https://healthwatcher.wordpress.com/2008/02...hool-shootings/


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AK Rich
post Dec 7 2014, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Dec 7 2014, 09:48 AM) *
I'm sure they are not helping things!! Hopefully as we move forward as a Country we can all come to some sort of understanding and agreement on the dangers of allowing folks with serious mental illness to arm themselves. It's going to be a very thorny issue with lots off divided thought, but it's a conversation that I think our Country needs to have.

And it doesn't help that trust in Gov is arguably at an all time low, and not without warrant.
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Ben Higgins
post Dec 7 2014, 07:13 PM
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I finally found that link that I saw ages ago. http://www.rateyourrisk.org/

You click on the different buttons and go through some questions to assess how risk you are from the following crimes:

-serious assault
-murder
-burglary

You guys might find it interesting. It'll probably give you the sort of answers you would expect if you're a city dweller and clued up.

I think that, before people get all paranoid and go looking for self defense schools and weapons they should go through this type of process. Awareness and knowledge is just as important (or more so) than the hard skills.


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Todd Simpson
post Dec 7 2014, 08:14 PM
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Well said!! smile.gif There are plenty of parts of town where you really don't need a gun. Most folks here that live in the "Burbs" and have guns, have them for the "idea" of defense, even though there may have been zero breakin/burglary in the area.

It goes to the "better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it" frame of mind. Many folks here just feel safer with a gun in or several in the house.

Personally, I enjoy shooting at the range and really don't own my gun for "defense". My hood has virtually zero crime. So I don't feel threatened here at all. I think one can enjoy guns/shooting, without being a survivalist nut or paranoid. Hopefully smile.gif Trying not to name drop here. Ahem.


QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Dec 7 2014, 02:13 PM) *
I finally found that link that I saw ages ago. http://www.rateyourrisk.org/

You click on the different buttons and go through some questions to assess how risk you are from the following crimes:

-serious assault
-murder
-burglary

You guys might find it interesting. It'll probably give you the sort of answers you would expect if you're a city dweller and clued up.

I think that, before people get all paranoid and go looking for self defense schools and weapons they should go through this type of process. Awareness and knowledge is just as important (or more so) than the hard skills.


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Spock
post Dec 8 2014, 12:16 AM
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When it comes to thugs with guns - that's why you stay armed. If we were in another country there would be thugs with knives or thugs with sarin gas.

Speaking of which, did I just read a headline somewhere that said Britain wants people to give up their knives now? If so, what's next? Spoons? Spoons don't kill people, people with spoons kill people without spoons. Always pack a spoon with ya - because the bad guys are gonna have their spoons.

I say - kill them all, and let God sort 'em out...

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Todd Simpson
post Dec 8 2014, 08:59 AM
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Hear Ye, Hear Ye!! GIVE UP YOUR SPOONS!!!! smile.gif

QUOTE (Spock @ Dec 7 2014, 07:16 PM) *
When it comes to thugs with guns - that's why you stay armed. If we were in another country there would be thugs with knives or thugs with sarin gas.

Speaking of which, did I just read a headline somewhere that said Britain wants people to give up their knives now? If so, what's next? Spoons? Spoons don't kill people, people with spoons kill people without spoons. Always pack a spoon with ya - because the bad guys are gonna have their spoons.

I say - kill them all, and let God sort 'em out...



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Ben Higgins
post Dec 8 2014, 10:44 AM
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Did anyone go through that risk assessment link at all ? If so, what was your risk level ?

QUOTE (Spock @ Dec 8 2014, 12:16 AM) *
Speaking of which, did I just read a headline somewhere that said Britain wants people to give up their knives now? If so, what's next? Spoons? Spoons don't kill people, people with spoons kill people without spoons. Always pack a spoon with ya - because the bad guys are gonna have their spoons.


That was quite a long time ago, if we're thinking of the same thing. There was a knife amnesty or something where people were encouraged to ditch their knives into allocated bins around the country. I guess it was a way of allowing people to ditch their weapons anonymously. Several cities had them and they lasted for an amount of weeks.

But to clarify, it was aimed at actual weapons, not everyday household knives.


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Spock
post Dec 8 2014, 11:38 AM
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QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Dec 8 2014, 04:44 AM) *
Did anyone go through that risk assessment link at all ? If so, what was your risk level ?



That was quite a long time ago, if we're thinking of the same thing. There was a knife amnesty or something where people were encouraged to ditch their knives into allocated bins around the country. I guess it was a way of allowing people to ditch their weapons anonymously. Several cities had them and they lasted for an amount of weeks.

But to clarify, it was aimed at actual weapons, not everyday household knives.



I got ya.

Well just like with guns, the only difference between

this...




and this...





is the intent.


I just looked over the link and went through my threat assessment. The first thing that stood out was the test was created in 1995, which the world was a far different place then than now. This latest generation of kids have grown up on video games, pop culture and the internet more than any generation before now. This has bred an attitude of entitlement.

Acts of violence are more random now, for instance, in that test the questions asked were essentially on how you presented yourself and allowed yourself to be an open target for violence. Where as today the only reason for an attack is so it can be captured on video and uploaded to World Star Hip Hop.

I hate to say it - but you run the risk of being attacked now, just for being white. I know many in the U.K would not understand this, and the liberally minded would scream "RACIST REMARK" with elitist indignation. But the facts are the facts. Thug culture has swept our country and violence has turned into a sport. In my city alone, which is not even a major U.S. city, we have had numerous occurrences in the past 10 years of gangs of youths (of a certain ethnic persuasion) which have wreaked havoc in areas where people congregate for leisure. There has even been a curfew instilled in our downtown area for anyone under 18 without adult supervision. I'm not sure if that has been lifted yet.

But imagine this place where families go to relax, walk through the streets and visit shops, or in the park with their children and pets, eating at the locally owned restaurants, enjoying the local brewery's or watching one of the many bands or outside plays be performed...



Suddenly gets turned on it's head by a gang of frenzied youths out for nothing but mayhem. Well, it's happened enough times that the city has had to step in, and if you want to at least attempt to insure your safety, you won't naively go anywhere like this thinking it's Andy Griffith's Mayberry in the late 50s. The sort of violence people need to be most vigilant about now days is not inner city - but random acts of thuggery.
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klasaine
post Dec 8 2014, 03:08 PM
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I took the first test - 'Risk of Assault' - my risk level was 23 (low risk).
As I've mentioned before I live in the L.A. metro area.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Dec 8 2014, 03:08 PM


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Todd Simpson
post Dec 10 2014, 01:33 AM
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I took it smile.gif I'm a "cautious" guy smile.gif
**(0 to 50) This score shows a low risk of assault. You are either highly cautious or a poor target. You should not be foolishly overconfident however. Keep up the precautions and take the test again next month and don't fudge on your points.

QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Dec 7 2014, 02:13 PM) *
I finally found that link that I saw ages ago. http://www.rateyourrisk.org/

You click on the different buttons and go through some questions to assess how risk you are from the following crimes:

-serious assault
-murder
-burglary

You guys might find it interesting. It'll probably give you the sort of answers you would expect if you're a city dweller and clued up.

I think that, before people get all paranoid and go looking for self defense schools and weapons they should go through this type of process. Awareness and knowledge is just as important (or more so) than the hard skills.



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AK Rich
post Dec 12 2014, 07:30 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Dec 6 2014, 11:06 AM) *
Getting rid of ALL gun rights for citizens is clearly just out of the question unless we remove the second ammnd to the Constitution. So that seems a bit of a straw man yeah?


Not at all. In the history of this country there are numerous examples of Gov. and the Supreme Court skirting the Constitution.Many have been struck down, many have not. Here is an example of a violation of the 4th Amendment.

http://original.antiwar.com/andrew-p-napol...e-constitution/

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/1...-communications

Need more examples? There are plenty concerning many of the Amendments to the Constitution.
You don't need a Constitutional Convention to change or amend the Constitution when you have a Supreme Court that will misinterpret it. Or simply rule against it. This in itself is unconstitutional.

http://constitutionality.us/SupremeCourt.html

The specific problem is addressed here. Taken from page 3 of the above.

A Summary of the Problem

If you have followed the links to the left which precede this page ('A Proposal'), then you have read my thoughts on the Constitutionality Crisis facing the United States of America. I have explained that:

There are many unconstitutional laws on the books
It is far too easy to pass unconstitutional laws. We must make it harder to do.
It is practically impossible to repeal or overturn unconstitutional laws. We must make it easier to do.
The Supreme Court has been a willing accomplice to the federal government's unceasing expansion of power. As a branch of the federal government itself, permitting the Supreme Court to review laws for constitutionality is letting the fox guard the hen house.
The power of Judicial Review is a power that was usurped by the Supreme Court; it is not a power granted to the court by the Constitution.
Reviewing laws for constitutionality, upholding the constitutional ones and striking down the unconstitutional ones, is a power retained by The States and the people, per the Tenth Amendment.
Unconstitutional laws are, in effect, unauthorized amendments to the Constitution which have not had to undergo the rigorous scrutiny and debate which would accompany proper, proposed amendments before adoption nor have they been approved by the states. Because unconstitutional laws have the very same effect as unauthorized constitutional amendments, legislation of questionable constitutionality should be given close scrutiny and review, and require super-majorities to pass, much like actual proposed amendments.
The Constitution and the federal government are creations of the states. It's time for the states to regain control of the Constitution and therefore, the federal government.


This post has been edited by AK Rich: Dec 12 2014, 07:53 PM
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Todd Simpson
post Dec 13 2014, 12:32 AM
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With watchdogs like you I don't think they will be able to get away with too much smile.gif Honestly though, I think we are in greater danger of World War III being started by Martians than we are in danger of the Govt. striking down the 2nd Amendment.

I just don't believe that we are in any real danger of losing our right to keep and bear arms. Despite the enormous amount of grinding on fox news and by Rush Limbaugh and others on the farrrrrrr opposite of left leanings, I just don't buy it. I have seen nothing, yes nothing in terms of proposed legislation,(especially none could pass and get signed) that even comes close.

So I think we are probably safe for now with our weapons smile.gif But I do hope we manage to find a way to reduce the number of CRAZY People that get access to guns.

TO WIT!!!! yet ANOTHER "nut job" shoots up the place yet again. This time in PORTLAND OREGAN.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/12/us/portland-....html?hpt=hp_t1



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AK Rich
post Dec 13 2014, 03:34 AM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Dec 12 2014, 03:32 PM) *
With watchdogs like you I don't think they will be able to get away with too much smile.gif Honestly though, I think we are in greater danger of World War III being started by Martians than we are in danger of the Govt. striking down the 2nd Amendment.

I just don't believe that we are in any real danger of losing our right to keep and bear arms. Despite the enormous amount of grinding on fox news and by Rush Limbaugh and others on the farrrrrrr opposite of left leanings, I just don't buy it. I have seen nothing, yes nothing in terms of proposed legislation,(especially none could pass and get signed) that even comes close.

So I think we are probably safe for now with our weapons smile.gif But I do hope we manage to find a way to reduce the number of CRAZY People that get access to guns.

TO WIT!!!! yet ANOTHER "nut job" shoots up the place yet again. This time in PORTLAND OREGAN.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/12/us/portland-....html?hpt=hp_t1



Attached Image


Well, I agree something of that sort is probably not going to happen over night. These things are done, and have been done incrementally,
and with backdoor methods that simply make it tougher and more expensive to own guns and ammo. There really is no argument against the fact that there has been a slow erosion of rights and the Constitution in this country.

I heard about the recent shooting today, and most likely in this case , as in most of these events, the perpetrator was in possession of a firearm illegally. So most likely there was already a law on the books that was supposed to stop this. And then after things like this happen , the answer our lawmakers come up with has more effect on responsible law abiding gun owners than it does anyone else.
Laws or mandatory testing for ownership doesn't stop a bad guy with a gun , a good guy with a gun does.
Instead of diminishing gun rights, maybe we should be trying to diminish the reasons and circumstances that lead to gun violence?
I don't have the answers but it seems to me the approaches taken or attempted are flawed.

This post has been edited by AK Rich: Dec 13 2014, 03:57 AM
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fkalich
post Dec 13 2014, 05:11 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Dec 8 2014, 09:08 AM) *
I took the first test - 'Risk of Assault' - my risk level was 23 (low risk).
As I've mentioned before I live in the L.A. metro area.


I don't have to check out Johnson County Kansas, in the top 2% of the country in per capita income. Not me, I'm poor. But I inherited my house and it is in a good neighborhood. So I know I am in no danger. I walk the streets past midnight, walking my dogs, never give it a second thought.

But I still like my gun. Even if you are pretty safe, don't be so sure that some time in the future things we take for granted, such as police protection, will not disappear for awhile do to some event, at least for awhile. There are several scenarios where this could happen, people just assume that the world will always be safe for them. Bad assumption.

My preferred gun is what I have, a .357 Magnum 7 shot S&W. Why? Well it is pretty for one thing, shiny. You only have to shot them once, it won't break your wrist, and it can shoot .38 special ammo as well if you run out of .357. I like a revolver over an automatic. Why? You have to think with a revolver. And just cocking the thing may be enough to make them run like a rabbit. Shotguns are good for that effect as well, "ka-chunk" and they take off with their tail between their legs. I want that extra second to think about what I am up against, to make sure that the guy has a weapon before I would unload. And 7 shots is nice, because you can say "did I fire 5 or 6...do you feel lucky, well do you punk?". And either way they get blown away, the chamber holds 7, so the joke was on them.
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Arpeggio
post Dec 17 2014, 03:13 PM
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Finland is similar to the US in that it has a high amount of gun ownership, but no where near the same amount of shooting massacres.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Finland

US also has (if you search for these): "Stolen Tank rampage" and "Killdozer".

More US soldiers die of suicide outside the combat zone.

http://www.thewire.com/national/2013/01/us...des-2012/60985/

~

The Finnish mental health system is decentralized and medication is very low on their list of priorities

http://www.mindfreedom.org/kb/mental-healt...d-open-dialogue






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AK Rich
post Dec 17 2014, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE (Arpeggio @ Dec 17 2014, 06:13 AM) *
Finland is similar to the US in that it has a high amount of gun ownership, but no where near the same amount of shooting massacres.

Not trying to diminish the fact that there is a problem with gun violence here but I am not sure that this is a good comparison since the population of the greater Los Angeles area alone appears to be 2 to 3 times greater than the entire population of Finland.

"The City of Los Angeles has an estimated population in 2013 of 3,862,839, and it's the most populous city in the country. It also sits in one of the most ethnically diverse counties in the United States. The City of Angels is a global city, and the Los Angeles Combined Statistical Area (CSA) is the third largest in the world, after Greater Tokyo and New York. It's also the 48th most populous city in the world."

"The greater Los Angeles area is much larger, though, and its metropolitan area has a population of 12.8 million, with 17.7 million living in the CSA."

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries...and-population/

"Estimates are released in the country on an annual basis and it is claimed that the Finland population in 2012 had reached 5,404,956 and in 2014, 5.44 million, making this the 116th most populous country on the planet."

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries...and-population/

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Todd Simpson
post Dec 17 2014, 06:31 PM
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HERE WE GO AGAIN!!! I can't even reply to a post before yet ANOTHER crazy man goes on a shooting spree. Ex marine, probably PTSD influenced.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/15/us/pennsylva...ings/index.html

(CNN) -- Police in Pennsylvania mounted an intense search Monday in the Philadelphia suburbs for a man suspected of killing his ex-wife and five former in-laws, the district attorney for Montgomery County, Pennsylvania, said at a Monday night press conference.

Bradley William Stone of Pennsburg killed his ex-wife and her mother, grandmother and sister, as well as the sister's husband and 14-year-old daughter, said District Attorney Risa Vetri Ferman.

But Stone didn't harm his two daughters, who were living with his ex-wife. He took them to a neighbor's residence in Pennsburg, the last place he was seen, Ferman said.






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REPLY TO RICH:

We are actually on the same page on a few things here smile.gif In the Oregon case we are talking about, it looks to be "gang related" and gangs don't buy guns through regulated channels nearly as much as one would like. Also, the shooter appears to have been quite young. So unless his father bought him a gun, it's probably a "street weapon".

The laws on the books do very little to deal with illegal guns nor will they ever be very good dealing with illegal guns much the same way they are not very good dealing with illegal drugs or anything for which there is an active black market.

What this particular case seems to be about in terms of policy, is a lack of security at our nations schools. Personally, I"d vote for and pay local taxes for a bill that puts metal detectors at every entrance and every exit on school grounds. THese should be built in from initial construction IMHO. But that's a separate issue really from what we have been going on about here.

But even if we did put metal detectors in schools, kids could still shoot each other outside, in the park, etc. So just securing the school grounds won't stop this kind of violence against children. In cases like this, where you have a minor, with an illegal gun, policy is feckless imho. He's too young to be prosecuted as an adult, he can buy a guy or borrow one on the street, there's very little policy can do here IMHO. What the child appears to need is better parenting or perhaps any parenting. Before they are adults, it really is up to the parents imho. Children raised in loving homes by loving parents (sans mental illness) are typically not on the shooter list. This is different than children raised in wealth homes who are "latchkey kids". These kids somehow do end up on the shooter list without benefit of mental illness it seems.

The entire "gun thing" is a thorny issue. All we can do is try to work with the structures/laws/policies, as voters, in a way that encourages the outcomes we desire. The balance between our liberties and our laws is perpetually in flux. So we have to remain vigilant smile.gif



QUOTE (AK Rich @ Dec 12 2014, 10:34 PM) *
Well, I agree something of that sort is probably not going to happen over night. These things are done, and have been done incrementally,
and with backdoor methods that simply make it tougher and more expensive to own guns and ammo. There really is no argument against the fact that there has been a slow erosion of rights and the Constitution in this country.

I heard about the recent shooting today, and most likely in this case , as in most of these events, the perpetrator was in possession of a firearm illegally. So most likely there was already a law on the books that was supposed to stop this. And then after things like this happen , the answer our lawmakers come up with has more effect on responsible law abiding gun owners than it does anyone else.
Laws or mandatory testing for ownership doesn't stop a bad guy with a gun , a good guy with a gun does.
Instead of diminishing gun rights, maybe we should be trying to diminish the reasons and circumstances that lead to gun violence?
I don't have the answers but it seems to me the approaches taken or attempted are flawed.


GREAT POST!! These are really important points here. They go to show the real issue at stake in our country which is a systemic, cultural, violent impulse. Other countries have guns, lotsa guns. But it's we here who have the crazy high soldier suicide rate, school shooting rate, rampage rate, etc. Many of these issues stem from deeeeeeep cultural values and policy as a reflection off those.

QUOTE (Arpeggio @ Dec 17 2014, 10:13 AM) *
Finland is similar to the US in that it has a high amount of gun ownership, but no where near the same amount of shooting massacres.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Finland

US also has (if you search for these): "Stolen Tank rampage" and "Killdozer".

More US soldiers die of suicide outside the combat zone.

http://www.thewire.com/national/2013/01/us...des-2012/60985/

~

The Finnish mental health system is decentralized and medication is very low on their list of priorities

http://www.mindfreedom.org/kb/mental-healt...d-open-dialogue


The issue is really "guns per capita" rather than overall numbers though. Just take finland and scale it up. You can get a better look at the comparison that way if you want even numbers.

QUOTE (AK Rich @ Dec 17 2014, 12:08 PM) *
Not trying to diminish the fact that there is a problem with gun violence here but I am not sure that
...
http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries...and-population/


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Dec 17 2014, 06:37 PM


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AK Rich
post Dec 17 2014, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE (Todd Simpson @ Dec 17 2014, 09:31 AM) *
REPLY TO RICH:
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What this particular case seems to be about in terms of policy, is a lack of security at our nations schools. Personally, I"d vote for and pay local taxes for a bill that puts metal detectors at every entrance and every exit on school grounds. THese should be built in from initial construction IMHO.

The issue is really "guns per capita" rather than overall numbers though. Just take finland and scale it up. You can get a better look at the comparison that way if you want even numbers.


Sounds good to me. those things, as well as adding armed security could go a long way to lowering the numbers of school shootings I think.

I am not sure that scaling Finland's population up would offer a fair comparison either considering population density and other related factors. But even as that is. Instead of using a hypothetical, how about if you just compare school shootings in a city in the US that has a similar population as the country of Finland? Do you think numbers would be closer? I do, it may even be that Finland's number would come out higher. The point is that these "per capita" comparisons do not necessarily reflect reality.

I have read that if you compare Europe to the US per capita that the numbers of mass shootings are very close. You probably won't like the source, but what about the content?

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/Lott-guns-...2/15/id/467903/

http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myths...ther-countries/

Another thing to consider is that even while gun manufacturing and ownership has continued to rise, gun crimes have actually fallen. Although gun suicides have unfortunately gone up.

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