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> Need Help From Luciana :p, Or just everyone, who can give me some advice:-P
Jakub Luptovec
post Jul 17 2007, 03:24 PM
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tongue.gif Luciana I would like to ask you something..
I consider my voice interesting, I have kinda good range (about two octaves) and I can also sing any note, just by listening the pitch... it feels natural for me (maybe, its because I am singing for about 10 years in a choir:P )

But the problem is, that when I scream (be it low pitch or mid pitch) I have feeling, like my voice is... 5 years younger than me.. When I am singing normally, its normal "manly" voice, but since I am singing metal, i need to add some crunch to my voice. Also, I have noticed, that when singing live, it sounds much better, than when recorded.. Dunno maybe its my inner complex or bad mixing of my voice?.. smile.gif

So to sum it up:
1) Will my voice, when screaming, change as I'll get older (my normal voice melody/color/basic range is pretty much set IMO..)? blink.gif
2) Is it normal, that singer just hates his voice? mad.gif
3) Can you give some lessons (or just advices) how to add "distortion effect" to voice properly? (maybe, I just don't know, how to scream unsure.gif )


Btw. I am 16 yrs old (I'll be 17 in 3 days tongue.gif )

Phoenix


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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 17 2007, 03:42 PM
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QUOTE (Jakub Luptovec @ Jul 17 2007, 10:24 AM) *
Also, I have noticed, that when singing live, it sounds much better, than when recorded..


This is fairly normal, for 2 reasons:

1. You hear yourself differently when you are singing- you get sound through your bones and a different tonal balance etc

2. Singing live is of the moment, listening to a recording is forever - you will hear every little imperfection which you would just miss when hearing yourself sing live. In fact I have this exact same problem on guitar. You jam , it sounds great. You play back the recording and you hear a lot of stuff you missed. For this reason, recording is about 20 times harder than most people would think!


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Luciana Segovia
post Jul 17 2007, 04:27 PM
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QUOTE (Jakub Luptovec @ Jul 17 2007, 03:24 PM) *
tongue.gif Luciana I would like to ask you something..
I consider my voice interesting, I have kinda good range (about two octaves) and I can also sing any note, just by listening the pitch... it feels natural for me (maybe, its because I am singing for about 10 years in a choir:P )

But the problem is, that when I scream (be it low pitch or mid pitch) I have feeling, like my voice is... 5 years younger than me.. When I am singing normally, its normal "manly" voice, but since I am singing metal, i need to add some crunch to my voice. Also, I have noticed, that when singing live, it sounds much better, than when recorded.. Dunno maybe its my inner complex or bad mixing of my voice?.. smile.gif

So to sum it up:
1) Will my voice, when screaming, change as I'll get older (my normal voice melody/color/basic range is pretty much set IMO..)? blink.gif
2) Is it normal, that singer just hates his voice? mad.gif
3) Can you give some lessons (or just advices) how to add "distortion effect" to voice properly? (maybe, I just don't know, how to scream unsure.gif )
Btw. I am 16 yrs old (I'll be 17 in 3 days tongue.gif )

Phoenix


Phoenix: *When you hate you voice is because you are insecure with it.. is normal..just take your time...*

it's very important to make a difference between singing in choir and singing metal...

if you have been singing in a choir about 10 years, your range is poor for me...I think that you should have three octaves at least.
and the breaks of your range, when you are in choir, is different.... Are you using falsetto when you scream?? because the screams of popular music, like metal are very different. You don't have to use the falsetto. Are you using it?


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Robin
post Jul 17 2007, 04:35 PM
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QUOTE (Jakub Luptovec @ Jul 17 2007, 02:24 PM) *
2) Is it normal, that singer just hates his voice? mad.gif

I hate hearnig myself more than anything else. Also, my cousin is an amazing singer and everyone says she is, but still she isnt really happy with her voice. I even hate hearing myself talk, uuuugh.


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Owen
post Jul 17 2007, 04:55 PM
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Luciana - What is the proper technique for a metal scream, what does it involve?

Because all I can figure at the moment is that if you shout, you build ulcers on your vocal chords = not good and if you use a raspy tone from the throught then your over vibrating the larynx which is also bad.

So how do you go about doing that harsh technique properly?


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Jakub Luptovec
post Jul 17 2007, 05:00 PM
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2 Luciana: To be honest, I dont like that kind of metal, where falesto is used:) So no, I do not use it:)
And my range is from d to C2 so its 3 actually otaves without one tone smile.gif - btw. these are in czech notation - we have H instead of B etc.... (to show it on scale, my range is like d,e,f,g,A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A2,B2,C2).
Anyway, I was singing basso everytime, so noone forced my to sing high tones.. maybe that is the reason.. also, choir on elementary school was like... very unproffesilonal:)
Hope, that this all makes sense..

2 Andrew: Thanks.. I think, you tottally nailed it :-D And also, the more I hear myself, the more fails I see.. First time, when I heard our record I was like "WoW.. we rock!", during tenth play.. I just had to stop the record, because I felt totally embarased:-D

2 Robin: I feel the same! I even hate myself recorded when taliking.. :-D

Btw. Luciana what you mean by brakes of range? its the distance between normal and falsetto range?


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Kaneda
post Jul 17 2007, 05:32 PM
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I'd say - and Luciana may correct me - that you don't want to do commonplace screaming - as in overloading your vocal chords by straining your throat and forcing a sound out. That's sure to damage your voice rather quickly.

You'd probably rather want to combine use of the diaphragm ("stomach") - which you surely already know from choir practice (and which you hopefully use when singing outside choir too wink.gif) - with glottal fry. The sound of glottal fry is in the yawn you make when your annoying brother/sister wakes you up at 5 in the morning, and you really don't want to get out of bed - the sound of your voice breaking up, because you actually give it too little air to hit a precise note at the volume you want. You also hear it when you try to go lower than your lowest note. The vocal bands alternately let air through and then close at irregular intervals, which causes your voice to "turn off" in the middle of the note - making it sound raspy.

It's easier to do at first with the lowest notes in your main register, and at as low volume as possible. Actually, to find it, sing a deep "aaaaah" at as low volume as you can. When you've trained applying it to the low notes, you can move it all over the register. Good for vocal stylings in the mid register, for growls at the low register, for screams in the high (non-falsetto, non-flageolet) register.

One note of caution: You do not want to practice this exclusively, or you'll find it increasingly difficult to sing without it, which means sacrificing your clear tone at all times smile.gif

Another technique is using the smaller vocal cords, but that's so much harder to explain, that I won't try - besides, wouldn't recommend doing it (and feeling safe doing it) from an explanation on the internet wink.gif

This post has been edited by Kaneda: Jul 17 2007, 05:38 PM
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Luciana Segovia
post Jul 17 2007, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE (Jakub Luptovec @ Jul 17 2007, 05:00 PM) *
2 Luciana: To be honest, I dont like that kind of metal, where falesto is used:) So no, I do not use it:)
And my range is from d to C2 so its 3 actually otaves without one tone smile.gif - btw. these are in czech notation - we have H instead of B etc.... (to show it on scale, my range is like d,e,f,g,A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A2,B2,C2).
Anyway, I was singing basso everytime, so noone forced my to sing high tones.. maybe that is the reason.. also, choir on elementary school was like... very unproffesilonal:)
Hope, that this all makes sense..

Btw. Luciana what you mean by brakes of range? its the distance between normal and falsetto range?


ohmy.gif
2 Jakub Luptovec: The break is just the point when you voice left the chest voice and begin to use falsetto...
when you study in choir, like in lyric singing the break is before than in popular singing...
I have students that sing melodic songs and i can feel there's no weight in his voices. They sing beautiful, but the words doesn't say anything, so i try to explain them that in popular singing it's important to use more air.......... without foce your vocal cords.....Increasing the air for a better vibrating of your vocal cords. be careful!!! if you lose the pich is for increase to much air.... control it.... this can be the new way to sing for you... do not sing without weight, almost in middle piches...
Maybe you are afraid when you scream, so you lose air when you have to use it.-
There has to be a balance, a kind of equilibrium-
Did you study how to breathe?

btw: cool.gif three octaves!! great! cool.gif


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Owen
post Jul 17 2007, 05:43 PM
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QUOTE (Kaneda @ Jul 17 2007, 05:32 PM) *
I'd say - and Luciana may correct me - that you don't want to do commonplace screaming - as in overloading your vocal chords by straining your throat and forcing a sound out. That's sure to damage your voice rather quickly.

You'd probably rather want to combine use of the diaphragm ("stomach") - which you surely already know from choir practice (and which you hopefully use when singing outside choir too wink.gif) - with glottal fry. The sound of glottal fry is in the yawn you make when your annoying brother/sister wakes you up at 5 in the morning, and you really don't want to get out of bed - the sound of your voice breaking up, because you actually give it too little air to hit a precise note at the volume you want. You also hear it when you try to go lower than your lowest note. The vocal bands alternately let air through and then close at irregular intervals, which causes your voice to "turn off" in the middle of the note - making it sound raspy.

It's easier to do at first with the lowest notes in your main register, and at as low volume as possible. Actually, to find it, sing a deep "aaaaah" at as low volume as you can. When you've trained applying it to the low notes, you can move it all over the register. Good for vocal stylings in the mid register, for growls at the low register, for screams in the high (non-falsetto, non-flageolet) register.

One note of caution: You do not want to practice this exclusively, or you'll find it increasingly difficult to sing without it, which means sacrificing your clear tone at all times smile.gif

Another technique is using the smaller vocal cords, but that's so much harder to explain, that I won't try - besides, wouldn't recommend doing it (and feeling safe doing it) from an explanation on the internet wink.gif



Thanks Kaneda, as comprehensive as ever. laugh.gif smile.gif Much appreciated.


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Kaneda
post Jul 17 2007, 06:00 PM
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QUOTE (Owen @ Jul 17 2007, 06:43 PM) *
Thanks Kaneda, as comprehensive as ever. laugh.gif smile.gif Much appreciated.


You're welcome, as ever smile.gif

Not even remotely a fan of Linkin Park, but Chester Bennington is always a good example of well developed glottal fry. That's how you scream for 15 seconds without losing your breath or ruining your voice for days wink.gif

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HuBAjK0ul0

(The clean high notes aren't what we're talking about - you'll know when you hear it - around 2:00 and on)

This post has been edited by Kaneda: Jul 17 2007, 06:04 PM
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Luciana Segovia
post Jul 17 2007, 06:07 PM
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sad.gif I have to go away now, but please leave all your doubts here and I am going to be answering one to one... smile.gif


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Kristofer Dahl
post Jul 17 2007, 08:09 PM
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This might be off topic - but when I understood how to use the stomach when singing/screaming, it was like a whole new world opened up... All of of sudden it was rock and not just false! biggrin.gif


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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 17 2007, 08:12 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Jul 17 2007, 03:09 PM) *
This might be off topic - but when I understood how to use the stomach when singing/screaming, it was like a whole new world opened up... All of of sudden it was rock and not just false! biggrin.gif


Yes, breathing is key, and its one thing that beginners rearely figure out for themselves - I would expext Luciana to cover this soon as a beginners technique smile.gif


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Kristofer Dahl
post Jul 17 2007, 08:14 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 17 2007, 09:12 PM) *
Yes, breathing is key, and its one thing that beginners rearely figure out for themselves - I would expext Luciana to cover this soon as a beginners technique smile.gif


Are you human?

That topic is coming up tomorrow! blink.gif

laugh.gif


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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 17 2007, 08:18 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Jul 17 2007, 03:14 PM) *
Are you human?

That topic is coming up tomorrow! blink.gif

laugh.gif


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif I just know my stuff Kris - didn't know I was a singer as well did you??? Actually I'm not, but I did get lessons for 6 months a couple of years ago so I know some of the basics smile.gif


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Bjoerne
post Jul 17 2007, 08:24 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Jul 17 2007, 09:14 PM) *
Are you human?

That topic is coming up tomorrow! blink.gif

laugh.gif


I'm better of to bed then so i can learn how to sing when i wake up ^^
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Pantalaimon
post Jul 17 2007, 08:32 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 17 2007, 02:12 PM) *
Yes, breathing is key, and its one thing that beginners rearely figure out for themselves - I would expext Luciana to cover this soon as a beginners technique smile.gif


Andrew is right - Breathing is key.

It would be wise to train your ear so that you know THE CORRECT TIMES TO BREATHE when singing. It's actually quite a bit harder than one might think, but once you get the hang of it, it's like second nature. Usually the goal is to take breaths at the end of thoughts (phrases or sentences or lines in the poem/lyrics). It is also smart to know where you are going with the song so that you can breathe in preparation for difficult notes or runs in advance.

I could write pages on breathing, but I'll keep it to that for now. smile.gif


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Kaneda
post Jul 17 2007, 09:57 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 17 2007, 09:12 PM) *
Yes, breathing is key, and its one thing that beginners rearely figure out for themselves - I would expext Luciana to cover this soon as a beginners technique smile.gif


Indeed - I was a bit surprised first off, that we skipped straight to actual singing, but on the other hand, most don't learn to hold the guitar in a relaxed way the first day - we want to get down to making some "noise" as quickly as possible smile.gif

I'd say that the most important thing to get down at the beginning is the use of the "stomach" as Kris mentioned. You can't expect to have a consistent and flexible voice until you use the muscles right.

Basically, you'll want the stomach to expand freely when you take in air (that would actually be the diaphragm moving down, right under the lungs, pressing other organs aside). Allowing the stomach to expand stretches the diaphragm as much as possible, which allows it to very precisely control the stream of air when you breathe out/sing. If your shoulders move up in order to breathe in quickly, that's one sign that you're doing it wrong. The less the diaphragm is stretched, the less you'll have control over the air stream, causing inconsistent volume, bad intonation, "running out of air" (which really means "losing control over the air that's left") etc.

One way to practice that I remember, is to lie down on a bed and focus on your breathing there, since people mostly breathe right when they're lying down. Maybe place your hands flat on the stomach, to focus on its movement.
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Luciana Segovia
post Jul 18 2007, 12:57 AM
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Be patients guys!!!

the answer will be tomorrow! wink.gif

in the new lesson!


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Travelin' Man
post Jul 18 2007, 04:11 PM
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Andrew IS right...breathing is key....that constant in and out...once that pattern stops, your life is over laugh.gif


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