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Phil66
post Jul 9 2017, 09:17 PM
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Hello Gab,

I'm still here wink.gif

Been a tough week. I've not had much time so only been practising and not posting much on the forum or here on our thread. Been squeezing as many minutes into guitar as possible.

On a side note, I got THIS, I thought of using it for my last 20 minutes of practise each day to jam, have some fun etc. I will have to look up which chords to use in the key I pick so it can build a rhythm. Hopefully, I'll start to develop being able to improvise over each chord rather than just the main key of the song. I'll start with 2 chord rhythms and build from there.

Cheers buddy.


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jul 10 2017, 03:27 PM
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Hi mate!! Congrats on the new looper!!! I have mine here at my practice place. It's a beautiful tool for practicing, improvising, and creating. You'll enjoy that part of your sessions a lot. smile.gif


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Phil66
post Jul 10 2017, 07:42 PM
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Thanks Gab,

My guitar fire is re-igniting, it never really went out it was just kept at bay by the rocky road of life. I don't know if you're familiar that unit but it's a little bit more than just a looper. It's not an advanced looper like the Boss RC-300 but it does create simple bass and drum backing in the key you play your chord progression in.

Anyway it's a great bit of fun so I'm looking forward to using it more.

Cheers Gab

UPDATE:

After my practise tonight I had a go with the Trio+. I actually learned something. I looked up the chords for the key of A minor and recorded a simple chord progression Am, Dm, Em. I had it on the Rock setting and once it had come up with a rhythm I chose style number 2, it says in the manual that this style is "Driving British rock. Sounds best at tempos between 80-130. Bass sitting on root, with occasional 5th or octave jump. Hard rock drums with hats changing to cymbals in the high intensity section." which doesn't really mean much to me biggrin.gif

Here is the rhythm, no playing over this as I struggled to come up with anything. Also my strumming on chords sounds awful, I didn't realise it was so bad. When I recorded the loop I just played the root notes of the chords to make it easier to follow the changes. I don't know if my chord playing was good enough for it to detect the key I was attempting, my ear isn't up to that yet.
Rhythm track, no guitar.
https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/rhythm

What I learned tonight, was this. I thought I'd try to play A minor pentatonic over the Am chord, D minor pentatonic over the Dm chord and E minor pentatonic over the Em chord. I opened three web browsers and spread them on my screen and called each scale on the GMC Scale generator. I WAS AMAZED! The all have the same notes. To you Gab, this may be something so tiny and trivial that you are chuckling to yourself at my "discovery" but it totally blew me away.

This was one of the reasons for buying this "Band Creator", I knew it would force me to try and understand things. I realised that I don't really need to change scale position, just try to work around the root note of the current chord. I know it is ok to just play in the key of the "song" but I thought it would be better to try to play over each chord. This is what led to this "discovery".

Now I'm not saying I was successful with my playing but I actually learned something biggrin.gif

The Trio, for some reason, detected double tempo for what I played, that is the rhythm you hear on that Soundcloud but a quick press of the "alt time" button switched it to my original tempo, around 70bpm.

Anyway, I had to let you know, I am chuffed. I need to see the relationship with other i, iv, v chords and their relative pentatonic scales and the relationship between the scales. This is like arithmetic and I love arithmetic tongue.gif

Sorry to bore you with what you must deem fundamentals Gab but I'm all excited rolleyes.gif

Cheers buddy.

This post has been edited by Phil66: Jul 10 2017, 09:08 PM


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jul 12 2017, 04:21 PM
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Hi Phil! I'm sorry about my absence. My connection at home is still down. I'm now on some kind of Starbucks having lunch and using their connection.

I'm so glad of knowing that you are enjoying the looper. It's also cool that this one includes drums and bass so you are forced to practice your chords and rhythms over a band backing.

Let me know if I've understood well. You mean that those 3 Pentatonic scales are formed by the same 5 notes? If that's what you are saying, that's wrong. Please clarify it.



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Phil66
post Jul 12 2017, 08:13 PM
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Hello Gab,

Yes the looper is great. The real beauty of it is that it generates a backing from the chords you play. Not just the key, but also the rhythm. You can play the same three chords differently and it generates a different backing for you.

I am so embarrassed about my "discovery" with the three scales. As usual, because I am always trying to do too much and running around like a headless chicken I can only assume that I spotted a couple of notes that were the same in each, noticed there were no sharps or flats and wrongly assumed everything was the same. You must think I'm a brainless twerp rolleyes.gif

Having reassessed I now see that the notes are all from the C major/A minor scale which I still find very interesting.

Sent you a PM

Cheers buddy

Phil



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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jul 13 2017, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jul 12 2017, 04:13 PM) *
Having reassessed I now see that the notes are all from the C major/A minor scale which I still find very interesting.


Now we are talking! biggrin.gif

A major scale contains those 3 pentatonic minor scales as well as 3 pentatonic major scales, in this case C, F and G.


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Phil66
post Jul 13 2017, 09:27 PM
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Thanks Gab,

Had a little play with my looper. I played a blues thing and it came up with this, my rhythm guitar is on there too this time. Can you guide me how to work out what key it is in please. The roots of the diads are A, D, A, E, D, A and E, Looking at those notes it looks like it could be A minor but when playing the A diad, there's an E which would fit and an Gb, the Gb isn't in A minor. The notes when playing the D diad are all in A minor, and when playing the E diad there is a Db.

The only scale I can find with those notes in is B minor but as the rhythm starts on A, and there is no diad with a B root, how would it all fit together in a key?? I haven't made that chord progression up, it's from an old Troy Stetina thing I used to practise way back in the olden days wink.gif

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/12-loopy-bars

Thanks Gab


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jul 14 2017, 02:59 PM
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Hi Phil, that a typical Blues Progression. Blues has its own harmonic nature so you won't be able to relate it to a scale in the way we do with diatonic chord progressions.

The most common progression is what's called the 12 bars blues progression and it's build with 3 dominant chords: I7, IV7 and V7. In this case these are A7, D7 and E7. In many cases these dominant chords are reduced to Major triads so it would be A, D and E, as it happens in your case.

The cool thing and what makes blues funny and a good first step to get into more advanced rock improvisation, jazz or fusion is that you have many possibilities to solo over this progression. It's not the idea at this point to learn all the scales and possibilities and master them, but I'm explaining this because my answer to your question would sound weird or contradictory.

As I've said, there are lots of possiblities, and that's why guys like Scott Henderson or Robeen Ford play blues and sound that rich.

Here are some ideas that you can try:

- Using A Blues scale over the three chords would work ok, but in some cases you won't sound totally connected with the chords.

- Using A major pentatonic over A chord, and A blues scale over D and E.

- Using Dominant arpeggios for each chord: A dominant arpeggio over A, D dominant over D and E dominant over E.

- Playing the Mixolydian mode of each chord.


Those are the most typical, and most of the blues players improvise combining those 4 possibilities, and sometimes even more.






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Phil66
post Jul 14 2017, 09:40 PM
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Thanks for that Gab, that video is very interesting and tricky to understand at the same time.

I thought I knew what arpeggios are but I didn't, I know what arpeggiating is.

This video clarified it and also made a lot of sense about playing over a 12 bar but I can't remember it all, it's a whole subject on its own huh.gif I think maybe I've jumped too far.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o3lWAnWCig


I need to learn more scale shapes, as in both videos it discourages jumping around the neck to the next box shape. I think I should make another 12 bar loop much much slower to concentrate on different pentatonic and blues scale shapes. I'm feeling daunted to be honest rolleyes.gif I need small steps with small introductions to new things, this will be my little and of practise mission so any tips/videos will be gratefully received. I know you're very busy though mate so don't put too much attention on it wink.gif

One other question. Why play the A major pentatonic over A instead of the minor pentatonic? I guess I suck at this theory stuff sad.gif

While searching for arpeggio information I found this video, it blew me away, I couldn't listen to it all day but it is amazing. You may find many faults but I was amazed. He's from Buenos Aires so you may know him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqBL5vGhNFQ


Cheers Gab, I'm still practising the Jack White lesson smile.gif



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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jul 16 2017, 09:09 PM
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Hi Phil, that Justin's video explains exactly what I've said about the use of Dominant arpeggios. That's what you should do. I can off course guide you with small steps to approach improvisation in this way since this is the way to improvise over any style.

About your question regarding why we use A Pentatonic Major instead of Minor. Both scales can be used over a Dominant chord, being the major the theoretically correct since it's a Major chord, you can also try A Pentatonic minor because we are used to that sound in Blues. The co existence of major and minor 3rd interval is the sound of blues. Our ear is used to this. Do this experiment, play over an A dominant chord the minor third (C note) and bend it slowly to the major third (C# note). How does it sound? Doesn't it sound bluesy?

That guy is very popular here, I've seen him many times, he is a street musician. Once, he was discovered by Roger Waters in the streets and he ended playing with him!


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Phil66
post Jul 17 2017, 02:09 PM
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Thanks Gab,

I'll have a play around. Could the fact that the major and minor is the sound of the blues come from the idea that the early blues players didn't actually know much theory so they mixed and mashed it all together and it became a signature sound that was then passed on to other players? I mean, the early blues players were mostly uneducated slaves.

I find it all very very interesting but I struggle to remember it all and apply it to my improvisation. I need to have a gradual learning curve but it's something I'm working on slowly as part of my last 20 fun minutes with my looper smile.gif

I need the lessons on GMC to study and practise my technique wink.gif That JW ascending run is still troublesome for me, I actually played just that lick for 20 minutes last night, I got quite clean with it then, when I played it along with the rest of the lesson, it went rubbish again laugh.gif I'll crack though, one day. wink.gif

Cheers

Phil


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post Jul 17 2017, 03:54 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jul 17 2017, 10:09 AM) *
I'll have a play around. Could the fact that the major and minor is the sound of the blues come from the idea that the early blues players didn't actually know much theory so they mixed and mashed it all together and it became a signature sound that was then passed on to other players? I mean, the early blues players were mostly uneducated slaves.


That's how the fresh music appears, by experimenting and breaking the laws of theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_blues


QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jul 17 2017, 10:09 AM) *
I find it all very very interesting but I struggle to remember it all and apply it to my improvisation. I need to have a gradual learning curve but it's something I'm working on slowly as part of my last 20 fun minutes with my looper smile.gif


Yeah, it takes some time to get used to these shapes and been able to apply it naturally. You need to start with a few elements and repeat them diary. As Justin showed in the video, start with 1 dominant arpeggio shape for maybe a week or more. Then introduce a new one.


QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jul 17 2017, 10:09 AM) *
I need the lessons on GMC to study and practise my technique wink.gif That JW ascending run is still troublesome for me, I actually played just that lick for 20 minutes last night, I got quite clean with it then, when I played it along with the rest of the lesson, it went rubbish again laugh.gif I'll crack though, one day. wink.gif



Sure! GMC lessons make you work on technique and learn theory in a simil real music situation.


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post Jul 17 2017, 09:01 PM
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Thanks for your help Gab,

I'll certainly be looking into it but it is only going to be a sideline thing for fun but it all helps.

Tonight I surprised myself, I put the material up for the Volbeat collab, I couldn't remember what I played first time around, I had to "transcribe" it, my ears must be getting better because it only took me 15 minutes. I guess it helps being something I've done myself and know that I would have stuck to the notes in the key but there was a time not long ago that I would have really struggled wink.gif I left the original in the mix too, I think it sounds pretty mean having twin lead smile.gif

I wated to get it done because I'm off to the South of France on Friday morning for two weeks.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Menton&am...15&bih=1052

Cheers buddy.

This post has been edited by Phil66: Jul 18 2017, 07:15 AM


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post Jul 18 2017, 02:47 PM
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That's a very beautiful place! Enjoy your vacation!! smile.gif

And well done with the collab take. It's great to have you on this one.


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post Jul 18 2017, 08:42 PM
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Thanks Gab,

Are you going to use the twin lead or the single?

Still getting nowhere. This was the best take tonight. I was hoping to get another REC in before I go on holiday. Doesn't look like that will happen mad.gif
https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/jw-18072017


Is this the kind of thing you mean with arpeggios? I played a very simple A major chord pattern and played an A major arpeggio over it. I did play a "wrong" note but I'm happy that I recognised it. On one of my attempts I was a couple of frets down playing the same pattern and it jump out at me as being "wrong". As I said, I do think my ears are getting a little bit better these days smile.gif

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/a-major-arpeggio-exercise

Cheers buddy.

This post has been edited by Phil66: Jul 18 2017, 09:16 PM


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post Jul 19 2017, 04:51 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jul 18 2017, 04:42 PM) *
Are you going to use the twin lead or the single?



Not sure yet. I'm still giving shape to the track since we are luckily getting some more takes!


QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jul 18 2017, 04:42 PM) *
Still getting nowhere. This was the best take tonight. I was hoping to get another REC in before I go on holiday. Doesn't look like that will happen mad.gif
https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/jw-18072017



Don't worry. I think that it's time to enjoy your well deserved vacation!



QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jul 18 2017, 04:42 PM) *
Is this the kind of thing you mean with arpeggios? I played a very simple A major chord pattern and played an A major arpeggio over it. I did play a "wrong" note but I'm happy that I recognised it. On one of my attempts I was a couple of frets down playing the same pattern and it jump out at me as being "wrong". As I said, I do think my ears are getting a little bit better these days smile.gif

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/a-major-arpeggio-exercise



Hi Phil, that's a good way to practice arpeggios, get the sound of the notes, and learn the shapes all along the fretboard. The best way to practice is like that guy justin explained for the blues. That's exactly what I meant.


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post Jul 19 2017, 08:25 PM
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Thanks Gab,

Hopefully we can enjoy our holiday without worrying about things at home too much. Luckily my wife has a brother and sister who can take the load while we're away.

I used this page for the major arpeggios. I am going to learn those shapes gradually, until I don't have to think about it, just in A major for now. I will repeat in my head when I play the ROOT, THIRD and FIFTH (without saying note names) to instil it to my brain. If you know the notes on the bass E and A string you're halfway there as there are only two strings left as the high E is the same wink.gif. Then, correct me if I am wrong; when playing a minor arpeggio, the shape is exactly the same EXCEPT you drop the THIRD down a fret.

Who would have thought that just 4 of the available 12 notes could be so confusing? laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif This is why I need to take baby steps.

I then need to know when I should play a major or a minor arpeggio, there's only one note difference though biggrin.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif biggrin.gif wink.gif

Cheers buddy.


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post Jul 20 2017, 01:50 PM
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Hi Phil!

Yeah! That's the difference between Major and Minor arpeggios, it's the same as Triads. These are the structures:

Major arpeggio: Root - Major 3rd - Perfect 5th

Minor Arpeggio: Root - Minor 3rd - Perfect 5th


Once you are comfortable with A major, the idea is that you start working in other keys. The first step is to be able to play over any "One Chord Backing", until you start experimenting with "2 chords backing tracks". The backings can be obviously replaced by your loop pedal.



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post Jul 21 2017, 11:07 AM
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Thanks Gab,.

I'll work on it slowly but surely. The looper is great because when I get to more than one chord, I can select simple and very simple bass. The very simple bass just plays the root note which will help at first as there is so much to think about.

My ultimate aim is to be able to play the various shapes in similar areas of the neck to prevent jumping around the fretboard. That's a long way off yet though.

Speak soon buddy

This post has been edited by Phil66: Jul 21 2017, 05:36 PM


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post Jul 21 2017, 03:42 PM
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That sounds perfect Phil. Go for it. wink.gif


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