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MickeM
post Jul 18 2007, 12:55 PM
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I'm fumbeling in the dark here but I think I have an idea for a lesson or a little bigger measure.
I'd like to learn how to write a descent song. Made my tries but can't seem to make them interesting enough.

It's usualy
Intro
verse
chorus
verse (copy paste of first verse)
bridge
chorus (copy paste of first chorus)

and copy & past it until it's at the least 3-4 minutes.

The result is usualy a song thats not so exciting since it sounds as if it repears itself... which it infact does.


So my idea here is to take a bigger grip around "how to write a song" with the help of teachers here.

The first example lesson could be, since we're guitarists, to add a rhythm guitar and solo to a predefined track and we'd run it as a project.

I'm dropping some names as example.

The project group decides on a genre and a brief description of the song - Rock, 120 bpm
Song build up as Intro, verse chorus verse bridge chorus chorus outro - length 2 minutes
Someone contributes with a text.
When all the basics for the song was set maybe Pavel could sontribute with a drum track suitable for the arrangement.
Someone adds a bass
Next, Luciana adds vocals (not the order I'd do it but for the lesson maybe neccessary)

Andrew suggests appropriate theory lessons if possible.

And then we get to work, each of us with our own backing track so to say, we keep a thread for discussions on how to proceed, what to tink about, suggestions, tips, tricks etc
We have out freedom to make whatever we can in order to make a good and interesting song.
Afterwards we present the result to instructors or publicly in the tread to recieve critisism on what to improve. Maybe we should stick to critisism on what to improve in order not to make it an admire-thread, it's an all skills are welcome lesson, of course, and noone should feel that some get positive response, others nothing and others only critisism on what to improve.
The final result could be moved to another thread for adminration laugh.gif


The point is to learn how to write songs and to make them interesting with enough variation for someone to enjoy a full length song. Would aquire a computer and a sequencer (Reaper is free) + soundcard where you can connect a mike or guitar.
And I see how this could expose people when posting their songs in public, so maybe we should strictly keep these threads in the private forum so everyone feel they can take part.

As a first step everything is served on a silver plate, drums, bass and vocals. Coming lessons could leave for us to add drums, bass and vocals ourselves.

I understand this takes some effort from Kris to arrange this with the teachers but I'm confident that's managable.

Does anyone but me think this is doable? And fun too maybe? I'm sure we all could benefit a lot from learning how to write songs.
Perhaps not exactly the way I suggested but with a discussion I'm positive we can come to a final concept that works.


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Hemlok
post Jul 18 2007, 01:06 PM
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It certainly sounds like a great idea! Very fun, sounds doable to me for sure.laugh.gif good suggestion MickeM

Off topic.. Tapping, so how are you going Mick? You replied only once to the topic you started, and i wasn't convinced you were threatened enough. tongue.gif Hope practicing went well, Gabriel's lesson was a fun and good sounding tapping lesson to play.


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This post has been edited by Hemlok: Jul 18 2007, 01:10 PM


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Jakub Luptovec
post Jul 18 2007, 01:21 PM
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Hmm.. the list, that you have written is basicly just normal song smile.gif Just change lyrics in 1st and 2nd verse, put there some crazy solo. If you add some interesting outro, you have solid song smile.gif Main thing, behind a hitmaking, is some crazy and powerful chorus. Something, that just goes to your head and you just MUST sing it. (CHIHUAHUA, know, what I mean? tongue.gif) Be it strong lyrics, melody or just the fact, that "it sounds good!".
Btw. just take a look on Collection of sins and its form smile.gif Its killer song, and it has this standart form smile.gif

This Intro,verse1,chorus,verse2,chorus,solo,chorus,outro is standart, which is used by almost all mainstream, pop, rock, heavy, trash, speed.... metal bands (with only a few exceptions), so there is nothing bad, to write song like this.

However, your first songs (same for everyone...) should be like that - you have an easy-to-follow guidelines and you can concentrate more, to make killer lyrics, riffs, and make it interesting. Later, you can start thinking about some unordinary and original way, how to compose songs ohmy.gif) Anyway, 95% of todays songs are unoriginal so... you dont have to worry smile.gif

-------------------------------------------------

And now to your idea:) You have my full support, and if anybody wants, I can surely create some lyrics:)
In the end, every member of GMC, will have to add this song to his first CD:-P

As I said, we may want to create song from standart form or we can make something original:) (think of ballads... they usually dont go like start/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/end...)

PS: Hope, that my post does at least a bit of sense biggrin.gif I was on party last night, so I am not fully conscious biggrin.gif Ow... my stomach... :-! biggrin.gif

Phoenix

This post has been edited by Jakub Luptovec: Jul 18 2007, 01:24 PM


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Kaneda
post Jul 18 2007, 01:46 PM
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Very good idea. I was actually thinking about a week ago, that the one thing GMC is lacking is song writing/composing lessons.

Since the actual helpful stuff is mostly theory (though theory mostly isn't where the inspiration for a song comes from, a video lesson of someone trying out chords on a guitar etc., humming into a dictaphone etc. isn't really generally helpful wink.gif), I considered doing some posts with various commonplace methods and (relatively) new ideas for making interesting music.

Commonplace methods like modulation, experimenting with chords, rhythm etc. "New ideas" like alternatives to the verse/chorus form - sonata form, fugues etc. are so rare in modern music - maybe because people think they have to be fully composed (as in played note by note) - but they can be combined with improvisation, just as easily as verse/chorus. Of course, as Jakub says, in the end, content will always be able to make up for using the same form ("content over form"), but it doesn't hurt to have more forms to put your content into smile.gif

In other words, theory lessons, but with focus on composing rather than playing solos/improvising (which is to some extent composing, of course, but still). The groundwork is already there in lots of Andrew's lessons.

But a composition workshop is a great idea also smile.gif

This post has been edited by Kaneda: Jul 18 2007, 01:51 PM
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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 18 2007, 04:14 PM
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Great idea smile.gif The challenge is to get it to work well. I would suspect that this would work best if it was split into several sub projects with someone taking the lead on each. Maybe we have a thread, or even a new board in which potential leaders can pitch their idea, so that others of a like mind can join in:

Pitch - Death Metal, 190bpm, Shredding, Advanced

Pitch - Blues Shuffle, 90 bpm, intermediate

Pitch - Classical, Nylon acoustic


Etc - now part of the fun would be in picking a genre that you have little experience in so you can learn more. Each sub project would need maybe 4 - 5 people with the appropriate talents between them. Then there would be the recording logistics - that's a hard one because it involves shipping large amounts of data over the net - potentially many 100s of megabytes for a finished song. There are ways around that which we can get into (I wrote a magazine article on this in fact and I'm awaiting acceptance for publishing).

Does that sound workable, does anyone have a different idea?

And on a different subject, Kaneda, I would be very interested in your proposed posts about composition, I think they would add a lot to GMC - a kind of practical theory, something we don't have covered as you said. If you wrote a series, I for one would be reading it avidly!


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sillyman
post Jul 18 2007, 05:32 PM
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sounds like a really fresh idea i really need help wit my songwritin huh.gif


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Jakub Luptovec
post Jul 18 2007, 06:21 PM
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I would like to subscribe as lyricswriter and singing melody maker for deathmetal song:-D And globaly subscribe to death metal project:-P Though i am not advanced.. :-P


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Anastasio123
post Jul 18 2007, 10:39 PM
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Wow sounds like an awsome idea. I think with the add on of singing, bass lessons, and thoery threads, we could use a lesson on songrwiting. I know I have trouble writing songs just because the structuring one could be confusing. I know it constintly is for me sad.gif But great idea tho! Hope it comes into fruition. smile.gif


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Ryan
post Jul 18 2007, 10:49 PM
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Well my problem with songs is just as simple as this. Putting it all together. I can write a semi-good rythm (I need work on that), and then intros, and outros are easy for me, and the chorus, but verses are also kind of hard. Im talking about instrumental music also!!

This would be a great idea. To have here at GMC.


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Jeffrey
post Jul 20 2007, 04:40 AM
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I will definately join in on this, awesome idea! I'm about to explode with ideas about cool songs and stuff.lol hope we can get this going very soon!


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Ryan
post Jul 20 2007, 04:43 AM
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QUOTE (Jeffrey @ Jul 19 2007, 10:40 PM) *
I will definately join in on this, awesome idea! I'm about to explode with ideas about cool songs and stuff.lol hope we can get this going very soon!

Yeah same here!!


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kethcup
post Jul 20 2007, 05:31 AM
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I'm totally down with it! smile.gif



Let me know where I can be of use and I'm all for it!!


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Smikey2006
post Jul 20 2007, 06:08 AM
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Id love to help write some songs on GMC and to have help writing some. Creativity flowing from many sources could create some interesting music. Ive actually got a song in the creating right now biggrin.gif called Through the Smoke and Pathways- Genre- Death/Pirate Metal...(thats right .. pirate metal biggrin.gif) -Tempo 200bpm -Length roughly 5 minutes - Tuning Drop D. Ill record each section as i write it and let the masses hear so i can get some feedback biggrin.gif


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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 20 2007, 02:31 PM
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Ok, so far a lot of indians and no chiefs ....

We need a couple of people to kick this off or it won't happen - who wants to take a lead? I suggest that each project gets a new thread, put them in the Masterclass forum for now, I'm sure Kris will give us a new board if we get a lot of activity. I suggest we proceed like this:

Post a thread with a title like:

GMC Collaboration - "Blades of Death"

(Blades of Death is meant to represent thie title of the piece smile.gif)

In the subtitle, describe it, like this:

Metal 120bpm Intermediate


And in the first post explain what you are hoping to create, and what collaborators you want and lets see if we can get something going! Volounteers can discuss their contributions on the thread and planning of the song can start!

When we get to that point we can figure out logistics of sharing files etc - I think the leader should be responsible for collating all parts and mixing them, and posting updates.

It will be fun to see if we can get this to work smile.gif

Any other ideas on how to progress this?

This post has been edited by Andrew Cockburn: Jul 20 2007, 02:33 PM


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MickeM
post Jul 20 2007, 03:08 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 20 2007, 03:31 PM) *
Ok, so far a lot of indians and no chiefs ....

We need a couple of people to kick this off or it won't happen - who wants to take a lead?

´
Uhm, as the originator of this thread and thereby causing work for lots of people I have to say - I'm sorry! laugh.gif

Nah, but my situation right now is that I'm pretty occupied extending the house (on my vacation) and also falling behind in my project at work so I have to cut one week off of the holiday. So I can't take the lead anywhere and maybe not even take part in this first round.

However, more input from one of the "indians". What is it that we all want to do? Record the guitar. So I think we should try to reuse as much material as possible.
Like lyrics f.ex can be used in several projects. Maybe also drums can be reused.
Some people can record their own bass, live or with a plugin. So I take it sharing the material among us is important. And most sequencers I guess can import wav files so if the temp is always the same it (singing, bass, drums) should fit right in.

So we'd be sharing inbetween projects to make things easier. With 100 guitarists and one lyrics writer the guitasrist would steam from all the wait and the writer would likely get a stroke from all work and die.

Anyone posting a thread on the new board (that Andrew suggested but for now the "guitar uploads" may work the best - not all that frequently used so threads won't disappear) owns the project and drives it forward. And I urge lyric writers, singers and bass players to be a member of several projects. ...I realise I all of a sudden made bass players sought for and popular. That's a first. laugh.gif j/k, we love you bass players!


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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 20 2007, 03:25 PM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Jul 20 2007, 10:08 AM) *
Anyone posting a thread on the new board (that Andrew suggested but for now the "guitar uploads" may work the best -


Yes, good idea!

And MickeM, seriously ... work and home improvements ahead of guitar??? You just need a roof that doesn't leak, the rest is gravy smile.gif


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MickeM
post Jul 20 2007, 04:31 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 20 2007, 04:25 PM) *
Yes, good idea!

And MickeM, seriously ... work and home improvements ahead of guitar??? You just need a roof that doesn't leak, the rest is gravy smile.gif

laugh.gif I know, I have to get my priorities straight. Right now there's no roof, only foundation put in place today. But hey, if I wear a tarpaulin(?) over my head I'm (and my guitar are) well protected.


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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 20 2007, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE (MickeM @ Jul 20 2007, 11:31 AM) *
laugh.gif I know, I have to get my priorities straight. Right now there's no roof, only foundation put in place today. But hey, if I wear a tarpaulin(?) over my head I'm (and my guitar are) well protected.


There ya go! A couple of hours work with a crate of beer and a tarpaulin and you'll be set smile.gif


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Effects : Line6 Helix, Keeley Modded Boss DS1, Keeley Modded Boss BD2, Keeley 4 knob compressor, Keeley OxBlood
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Anastasio123
post Jul 20 2007, 08:31 PM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 20 2007, 09:31 AM) *
Ok, so far a lot of indians and no chiefs ....

We need a couple of people to kick this off or it won't happen - who wants to take a lead? I suggest that each project gets a new thread, put them in the Masterclass forum for now, I'm sure Kris will give us a new board if we get a lot of activity. I suggest we proceed like this:

Post a thread with a title like:

GMC Collaboration - "Blades of Death"

(Blades of Death is meant to represent thie title of the piece smile.gif)

In the subtitle, describe it, like this:

Metal 120bpm Intermediate
And in the first post explain what you are hoping to create, and what collaborators you want and lets see if we can get something going! Volounteers can discuss their contributions on the thread and planning of the song can start!

When we get to that point we can figure out logistics of sharing files etc - I think the leader should be responsible for collating all parts and mixing them, and posting updates.

It will be fun to see if we can get this to work smile.gif

Any other ideas on how to progress this?


Andrew, I'd love to start a thread like this but I really dont know how to upload .wav files into my posts, nor wat program to use. I'd be happy to get the ball rolling, I would just need some help on the tech stuff. If we started a bulletin thread on the tech aspect of how to get this started, everyone could read it and projects would start shooting up in no time! Eventually we would need a new board however because this could get very popular. Just think, looking at pages worth of GMCer projects (as if you were looking at the album reviews page) and being able to click on a project, add a riff or something, and watch the "GMC soundtrack" grow! Lol I think this could be really fun. smile.gif


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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 20 2007, 09:01 PM
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QUOTE (Anastasio123 @ Jul 20 2007, 03:31 PM) *
Andrew, I'd love to start a thread like this but I really dont know how to upload .wav files into my posts, nor wat program to use. I'd be happy to get the ball rolling, I would just need some help on the tech stuff. If we started a bulletin thread on the tech aspect of how to get this started, everyone could read it and projects would start shooting up in no time! Eventually we would need a new board however because this could get very popular. Just think, looking at pages worth of GMCer projects (as if you were looking at the album reviews page) and being able to click on a project, add a riff or something, and watch the "GMC soundtrack" grow! Lol I think this could be really fun. smile.gif


Go ahead and start a thread - the technical stuff will come later, and as the fisrt thread yours will be the one where we work out all the details smile.gif If we think about this for too long it wont happen so lets get some momentum going!


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