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> Everyone Advise Please...., But especially GMC instructors
leedbreak
post Jul 19 2007, 03:48 AM
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Please read more than once before adding comments, thanks.
Ok I have spent like 5 days on Muris Varajic Alternate picking.
If I play with the tab or with a metronome I can not go over 74BPM hitting the triplets right and I am actually getting tired of trying.

It is like the timing itself is what is holding me back...

Now I have spent the last 2 hours breaking it into parts just trying to play each part as fast as I can, forgetting about timing. To my surprise I am getting very very close.

I mean really, sixteenth triplets notes at 150 BPM is really just play as fast as you possibly can.
I feel I would get there far faster trying to learn it fast instead of working my way up to it while losing interest.

Heck that is basically what every single instructor does in the videos. They play it once slow and then fast with nothing between.

To me the metronome or any source of timing is for building technique, timing habits and especially accuracy making it very important on everything you learn. However, once you have a certain piece of music learned and yes, picking correctly too, there must come a time to just play the darn thing. But of coarse go back to the timing to polish up from time to time.
The metronome has helped my playing beyond measure but is there a time when you put it away and just focus on speed?
If speed is your goal, as it is mine.
Thanks
Leedbreak


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AIB234
post Jul 19 2007, 04:44 AM
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I believe the metronome keeps you consistent in your playing.

You may certainly be able to play faster without it, but there must be a reason, and my logic is consistency. If we could play consistently fast, we should be able to do it with a metronome, no? When we play without it, we are not as consistent. In a real setting, no, you would not have it. But, you would hopefully have at least a drummer with a click track of some sort keeping you in time anyways. It's the same principle. Have you ever considered using a drum track or rhythm loop (like the backing tracks that may be with that specific lesson, I am not sure)?

Either way, you will have to stay in time whether you are following a metronome, a drummer, or something else.

I do understand completely what you are saying because I am run into the same thing. Sometimes I find if I take a day or two and work on something else, then come back to what I was doing it flows much easier with a lot less frustration. Maybe you can find the same thing even though I'm sure it's not what you want to do!

I hope this can help you!


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kethcup
post Jul 19 2007, 04:53 AM
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QUOTE (AIB234 @ Jul 18 2007, 09:44 PM) *
I believe the metronome keeps you consistent in your playing.

You may certainly be able to play faster without it, but there must be a reason, and my logic is consistency. If we could play consistently fast, we should be able to do it with a metronome, no? When we play without it, we are not as consistent. In a real setting, no, you would not have it. But, you would hopefully have at least a drummer with a click track of some sort keeping you in time anyways. It's the same principle. Have you ever considered using a drum track or rhythm loop (like the backing tracks that may be with that specific lesson, I am not sure)?

Either way, you will have to stay in time whether you are following a metronome, a drummer, or something else.

I do understand completely what you are saying because I am run into the same thing. Sometimes I find if I take a day or two and work on something else, then come back to what I was doing it flows much easier with a lot less frustration. Maybe you can find the same thing even though I'm sure it's not what you want to do!

I hope this can help you!






Perfect reply Aib234!



I second this!! smile.gif


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leedbreak
post Jul 19 2007, 05:11 AM
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Thanks guys,
I do play over drum tracks and have been doing so for many years. Although I have not tried it much with the lessons. Most of the backing tracks are far to fast for learning especially the lesson I am on now.
I guess I feel I am more likely to break new tempos and learn to move fasted without the metronome and then maybe come back to it at higher speeds. It is that speed blearier I can not get past.
Like I have posted before I can play pavel's 1st 3 speed lessons with drums or metronome at 94 and 120 but not in between. It is like my picking hand needs to switch from walking to running to achieve speeds higher than the 94 and then it has to go much faster.
I do really wish there was a lesson video where they played from say 90 -140 and back again picking up about 10bmp each time they restart the pattern. I do feel this would help everyone and let some of us know it is even possible.
Thanks again


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kethcup
post Jul 19 2007, 05:15 AM
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Plataue's - dont' you love 'em?!!



I honestly think you're getting ready to have a breakthrough in speed man. I think that your hands are just playing catching up to your confidence! smile.gif And when they do you'll be blazing!



You know the answer to this one! Practice + Patience = JIGGYNESS! smile.gif


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leedbreak
post Jul 19 2007, 05:28 AM
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QUOTE (kethcup @ Jul 18 2007, 11:15 PM) *
Plataue's - dont' you love 'em?!!



I honestly think you're getting ready to have a breakthrough in speed man. I think that your hands are just playing catching up to your confidence! smile.gif And when they do you'll be blazing!



You know the answer to this one! Practice + Patience = JIGGYNESS! smile.gif



That is s great thing the hear and a plateau should be a good thing and a darn good reason for my trouble
And from this day on......
I will set my sights on JIGGYNESS, yeah that sounds great
Thanks


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Tank
post Jul 19 2007, 11:46 AM
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QUOTE (leedbreak @ Jul 19 2007, 05:28 AM) *
That is s great thing the hear and a plateau should be a good thing and a darn good reason for my trouble
And from this day on......
I will set my sights on JIGGYNESS, yeah that sounds great
Thanks


I'm in agreement with all that's been said here

The playing plateau (I call it "the glass ceiling") is something that everyone deals with. I had the same speed issue years back. It caused a further problem at an advanced stage which I had to work back through my technique to deal with. I neglected to use a metronome at the correct pace.

Basically, it boils down to this. You are using the metronome to get your fingers in the right place, and your pick down in the right moment, as you correctly stated. However, more fundamentally, (and importantly) you are exercising your hands, building stamina, so that when you get to full pace, you can make your fingers and hand do the work while still relaxed. The best training speed for you is just below your maximum speed. At this pace, you can keep strict time (that bit is the key to it all), and yet you are pushing your physical limit, without stressing or tensing. And at this pace you can do it for extended lengths of time (over 5, 10 minutes at a go). Eventually you get used to the speed over a few days as your hands get stronger and you can push it a bit more. This stamina and the relaxed accuracy that it allows you is the secret to fast playing.

I think there is no harm in setting the metronome to full pelt, and "having a go" at the piece. However, you'll notice that at the end of trying it, your hands will be tense, because you've pushed it beyond the limit. The problem about practicing like this constantly is that while you will eventually over time manage to get the fingers down and the pick on the string on time, you've not developed the strict rhythm, so all your fast phrases are "sloppy". And when this translates to playing with a band, it'll sound off. I found this out the hard way!!

As I say to anyone who starts guitar "get yourself a metronome, you'll hate it with a vengence, but it will be the best teacher you ever get".

Oh and my experience with the glass ceiling? You'll be banging your head against it for weeks (or sometimes months!), then one day you'll pick up the guitar, and it will all click into place. Suddenly all the work that you've put in, pays off all at once. It's like becoming a 40% better player overnight. But when the ceiling breaks, you'll only gain the amount of work that you've put in, so stick with it, is my advice smile.gif

/T
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MickeM
post Jul 19 2007, 12:15 PM
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Just spinnig a bit further on Tanks glass-scieling.

What I have noticed and what I try for myself is to practice the apeedy parts at maximum speed, actually a tad above and I will gail and fail and fail for days. Then I put down the guitar for a few days, this is perfect when there's a planned short weekend vacation or similar coming up.
When I pick up the guitar again after the short break I suppose the muscles in the hands had a chanse to regain and build up and the muscular memory has come in synch with the brain and I can if not nail the piece at least notice a great improvement in speec and accuracy.

So how I tackle seemingly impossible pieces. Fain fail fail for days, take a few days off, warm up and then give it another go for possible success.


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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 19 2007, 11:49 PM
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Hey Leedbreak, this is a great topic ...

As we have discussed before, we are pretty much in the same boat as older guys undoing years of bad habits. This really hits on a couple of issues I have been having. I hit the glass ceiling too although I didnlt know what it was until I read this post - kudos to you for teasing this out so I could understand it.

Tank - I found your post inspiring; I have been lightening on the metronome practice of late, becoming a little discouraged, instead I have been spending hours jamming to backing tracks of my own devising. I find I make progress this way, but I see that I am repeating my old mistakes - I can get the speed up but not the accuracy (and I have the exact same issue as leedbreal mentioned of being able to play a riff slowly and accurately or quickly and slopilly but not in between).

Between you all, the posts here have opened up a further understanding of the importance of the metronome. To play as we would all wish to play, EVERYTHING we play when jamming or gigging has to be within the "Metronome Zone" or we risk bad timing and sloppy playing.

Painful as it is, we have to go bacl to the 'nome and work it until our limit is past where we want to play to ensure our riffs are pristine.

I'm gong to go back and start beating on that glass ceiling - thanks guys smile.gif


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AIB234
post Jul 20 2007, 12:14 AM
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You might need this...

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AliMo
post Jul 20 2007, 12:42 AM
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Lol I hate finding good inspiring topics like this when I am unable to immediately practice it. I'm not in the exact stage as you guys, currently only about half a year into the guitar but haven't been effectively using the metronome. Many a time its been that I would use it, get bored or lose heart and immediately start jamming to a song to regain my confidence biggrin.gif . However I bookmarked this topic so tomorrow when I can sit down with my guitar I'm gonna reread all of this and get to work so I dont create any bad habits. Thanks guys!


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FretDancer69
post Jul 20 2007, 01:51 AM
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im experiencing exactly the same thing as this!! RIGHT NOW!!! ohmy.gif sad.gif sad.gif , i can play the lick very relaxed, using proper Alternate Picking technique, but slowly. And when i try to play it fast, my fingers are left behind by my right hand, and then my hands get tired. And im sick of practicing slowly with the metronome, that tick tick tick drives me nuts!!!! mad.gif mad.gif

So from what i read from Tank, what we should do is play slowly and relaxed to build up stamina so we can later push it farther a bit into speed?


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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 20 2007, 02:08 AM
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QUOTE (AIB234 @ Jul 19 2007, 07:14 PM) *
You might need this...

*hands Andrew a hammer*


Thanks smile.gif

** Smack ** Tinkle ** Sixteenth triplets 300bpm ...


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AIB234
post Jul 20 2007, 04:22 AM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 19 2007, 08:08 PM) *
Thanks smile.gif

** Smack ** Tinkle ** Sixteenth triplets 300bpm ...


Yes! I knew it.


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kahall
post Jul 20 2007, 05:09 AM
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I read this post earlier and even though it does not really apply to me and my skill level yet, it encouraged me to practice with the "nome" this evening. That's it, nothing else. Usually I might get in 15 minutes or so per practice.

Here is how clueless I am. I always have to stop and wonder if I am doing it right...fiddle around with the thing and get my head clear and then I can go at about 60 bpm for most licks or parts of a song I know. Even though I hate the metronome I have somehow managed to own 2 of them and tonight I had them going at the same time, at the same speed, but one of them was clicking on every note....kind of counting for me, which honestly is the most difficult thing for me. It seemed to help, then I started laughing about it...cuz you know...I hate the metronome and I had 2 on at the same time, and I thought...HA! what a freak. Heh!....guess you had to be there.... biggrin.gif


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leedbreak
post Jul 20 2007, 05:16 AM
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QUOTE (Tank @ Jul 19 2007, 05:46 AM) *
I'm in agreement with all that's been said here

The playing plateau (I call it "the glass ceiling") is something that everyone deals with. I had the same speed issue years back. It caused a further problem at an advanced stage which I had to work back through my technique to deal with. I neglected to use a metronome at the correct pace.

Basically, it boils down to this. You are using the metronome to get your fingers in the right place, and your pick down in the right moment, as you correctly stated. However, more fundamentally, (and importantly) you are exercising your hands, building stamina, so that when you get to full pace, you can make your fingers and hand do the work while still relaxed. The best training speed for you is just below your maximum speed. At this pace, you can keep strict time (that bit is the key to it all), and yet you are pushing your physical limit, without stressing or tensing. And at this pace you can do it for extended lengths of time (over 5, 10 minutes at a go). Eventually you get used to the speed over a few days as your hands get stronger and you can push it a bit more. This stamina and the relaxed accuracy that it allows you is the secret to fast playing.

I think there is no harm in setting the metronome to full pelt, and "having a go" at the piece. However, you'll notice that at the end of trying it, your hands will be tense, because you've pushed it beyond the limit. The problem about practicing like this constantly is that while you will eventually over time manage to get the fingers down and the pick on the string on time, you've not developed the strict rhythm, so all your fast phrases are "sloppy". And when this translates to playing with a band, it'll sound off. I found this out the hard way!!

As I say to anyone who starts guitar "get yourself a metronome, you'll hate it with a vengence, but it will be the best teacher you ever get".

Oh and my experience with the glass ceiling? You'll be banging your head against it for weeks (or sometimes months!), then one day you'll pick up the guitar, and it will all click into place. Suddenly all the work that you've put in, pays off all at once. It's like becoming a 40% better player overnight. But when the ceiling breaks, you'll only gain the amount of work that you've put in, so stick with it, is my advice smile.gif

/T


I could type an hour to each of you peoples' post. Very inspiring. I have been working at my job most of the today with my mind wondering back to those six strings and that I can play at my dream level even at my current age. My playing has really grown since joining the site, but it is not the site alone.... it is the dreaded tick tock that as done the most for me. I guess I play more with a metronome in a week now than I did for the last ump-teen years. And I know this is the sole cause of any success I am having now, but dang the truth hurts.

Dear Mr. tank,

I have never read something that has made more sense, in my life. Especially the part about the playing soft while still accurate, and the steps to achieving this.

I had noticed that when I rip something off that amazed myself it was like my fingers and picking went on to play by them selves and left me to wonder what happened

Playing has simply never be this enjoyable before and I hope and prey the best is yet to come.
To all who read and participate on this site I wish you the very best and look forward to everything to come, for us all

leedbreak

PS:
Once again that paypal payment means nothing compared to the knowledge base this site is growing into.
Thanks kris


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Tank
post Jul 20 2007, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE (FretDancer69 @ Jul 20 2007, 01:51 AM) *
im experiencing exactly the same thing as this!! RIGHT NOW!!! ohmy.gif sad.gif sad.gif , i can play the lick very relaxed, using proper Alternate Picking technique, but slowly. And when i try to play it fast, my fingers are left behind by my right hand, and then my hands get tired. And im sick of practicing slowly with the metronome, that tick tick tick drives me nuts!!!! mad.gif mad.gif


Like I said, you will learn to hate your metronome (if you are doing it properly). smile.gif But if there ever was a secret to playing properly, it's that little ticking box.

QUOTE (FretDancer69 @ Jul 20 2007, 01:51 AM) *
So from what i read from Tank, what we should do is play slowly and relaxed to build up stamina so we can later push it farther a bit into speed?


This is it. Your metronome practice is all about developing the "muscle" to be able to play the music while relaxed. If you think about it, this shares parallels with most activities. Olympic swimmers might only have 100m to swim in the race. But if they trained by just swimming 100m at a time as fast as they could, it would take a lifetime before they would be any good. Instead they spend all day, swimming for miles and miles, building up their muscle stamina, pushing and improving their average speed. Then when it comes to practicing the "race", they can maintain a relaxed body, allowing them to stretch that extra inch, which improves their top speed performance.

The "by product" of all the training with the metronome, is that you are also developing a strict sense of musical timing. This means that by the time your stamina has got to the stage that you can physically play fast without tensing, your accuracy is equally capable.


QUOTE (leedbreak @ Jul 20 2007, 05:16 AM)
Dear Mr. tank,

I have never read something that has made more sense, in my life. Especially the part about the playing soft while still accurate, and the steps to achieving this.

Playing has simply never be this enjoyable before and I hope and prey the best is yet to come.


Just Tank smile.gif

I struggled with metronomes for ages, and it was only when I discovered why I was really using it, (i.e to get "fit"), that it made sense. When I figured it out, my playing came on leaps, I only wish someone had have told me sooner !!

It's definately the breakthroughs that keep you playing smile.gif
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Kristofer Dahl
post Jul 20 2007, 11:07 PM
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In deed very nice things said here. smile.gif

Sometime sthe best advice you can get are things which you already have heard about, but just haven't realised the importance of!


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Andrew Cockburn
post Jul 20 2007, 11:10 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Jul 20 2007, 06:07 PM) *
In deed very nice things said here. smile.gif

Sometime sthe best advice you can get are things which you already have heard about, but just haven't realised the importance of!


By the way, I did what I said last night and hit the metronme big time, and this morning I added 40bpm to the patterns I was praticing smile.gif Seems like just knowing about the glass ceiling helped me to bust through it!

Plenty more slow practicing for me from now on!

Thanks for the inspiration guys, I am really psyched about this smile.gif


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leedbreak
post Jul 24 2007, 02:47 AM
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QUOTE (Andrew Cockburn @ Jul 20 2007, 05:10 PM) *
By the way, I did what I said last night and hit the metronme big time, and this morning I added 40bpm to the patterns I was praticing smile.gif Seems like just knowing about the glass ceiling helped me to bust through it!

Plenty more slow practicing for me from now on!

Thanks for the inspiration guys, I am really psyched about this smile.gif



Andrew you hit it on the money my friend. I too spent the weekend with Tank's glass in my mind. Managed to move from a clean 70 to clean 90 with the 110 not to far behind on a certain lesson. However, I must let the ole pinky heal for a couple days as it is raw.
But back to the subject on the original thread. I experienced the most growth so far in the last 36 hours. While I owe most of this to tanks points I did learn there is a lot to be said about attempting, from time to time, to play far faster than your true speed, so you can see progress taking place. Don't get me wrong I really like being able to move up a couple bpm on my lessons but when I get stuck at a tempo I going to start moving into the challenge stage and bust through the "cealing" and then come back in a slight higher tempo. This is the break I needed to learn.
I took my current lesson and moved it to 110. Yep, that is far to fast for me but then it made doing it slower and correctly "seem" a lot easier. As the weekend went on I a started hitting the 110 better. I kept using the 110 to see if I was really helping with the many hours of slower ones in between. I do not think I would have ever seen this growth without attempting the higher speed.
While I still can not do the 110 I now see that it is coming together and I provides the proof that I needed to see "that it is possible" for me.
Here was my formula, few times at 70 then a few at 90 then one or two at 110. I was using the backing for my timer to start out, but then was able to do it with backing and the lovely duet of Mr. tick and Mr. tock.
Anyway,
Having more fun Now.


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