Reply to this topicStart new topic
> How To Go About Getting Extremely Deep In The Pocket?
leonard478
post Mar 30 2015, 12:35 AM
Post #1


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 183
Joined: 4-July 11
Member No.: 13.277



I want to develop SERIOUSLY deep pocket time, with funk rhythms, comping, single notes, in every aspect pretty much. whenever i record myself i always notice that when I'm locked in it sounds good, but much of the time i lose it
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
klasaine
post Mar 30 2015, 02:29 AM
Post #2


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 2.822
Joined: 30-December 12
From: Los Angeles, CA
Member No.: 17.304



Play live with 'people'. Preferably one's that are better than you. And do it a lot. Once a week minimum for several hours. Rehearsals, jams, gigs, etc. Play, play, play.
Also - listen to tons of groove music. funk, soul, jazz, disco, hip-hop ...
There is no other way. No technique. No method.
Full stop.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Mar 30 2015, 02:30 AM


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kristofer Dahl
post Mar 30 2015, 08:24 AM
Post #3


GMC Founder & Rocker
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 15.180
Joined: 15-August 05
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Member No.: 2



Ken - why do you think getting "in the pocket" requires live gigging with interaction from people?

I currently don't play with a band. However, I do feel I can work on the groove with any backing that swings enough for me to 'dig in'. A recording with real drums will help, but a neatly programmed backing can be just as cool.

That live interaction is of course very beneficial, but why do you think it is a necessity?


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jstcrsn
post Mar 30 2015, 11:41 AM
Post #4


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 2.774
Joined: 29-March 08
From: kansas, USA
Member No.: 4.733



although I don't think live gigging is necessary, I will say it is at least 10 times faster as a learning process. I will attest to live gigging and the other sound advice Ken gave.Nothing short of hard time will do
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jim S.
post Mar 30 2015, 01:22 PM
Post #5


Learning Rock Star
*

Group: Members
Posts: 669
Joined: 7-April 13
Member No.: 18.014



Every morning after my coffee I take an "in the pocket" pill. At first I didn't notice much but after a few months the change in my pocket felt further and further away. I really had to reach down, my body nearly at a tilt. My pockets got deeper and began serious head noddin and feet tapping to any music. The snare and bass seem to stand out even the music from kids toys. Soon I was like, whoa that's my jam. Still can't reach my money but.....I be tappin dat foot all day


Goodmorning gmc
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
klasaine
post Mar 30 2015, 03:15 PM
Post #6


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 2.822
Joined: 30-December 12
From: Los Angeles, CA
Member No.: 17.304



QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Mar 29 2015, 11:24 PM) *
Ken - why do you think getting "in the pocket" requires live gigging with interaction from people?

I currently don't play with a band. However, I do feel I can work on the groove with any backing that swings enough for me to 'dig in'. A recording with real drums will help, but a neatly programmed backing can be just as cool.

That live interaction is of course very beneficial, but why do you think it is a necessity?


'Pocket' playing is not just your concept of where it is. It's your place inside the whole - which is dependent and variable upon the other players.
If you only play with machines you don't get any (real time) feedback to adjust to. You can beat your part to death or urinate all over the track with no one to tell you (or subtly adjust you) that your part's not making it.
If you don't have a lot of experience playing with humans in real time then your concept of how to play a groove with a machine will be most likely pretty stiff and not grooving. It might be 'correct'. It may be 'in-time'. But that has nothing to do with the pocket.

What JSTCRSN says is very true. Playing with people will get you there a lot faster.
If you played in bands before and for a while you can and will certainly transfer that instinct to playing with a track. Anyone who records has to do it constantly.

*Backing tracks for the purpose of 1) karaoke or 2) learning to solo are very generic and lifeless. that's fine, they weren't/aren't made in the service of a song (no judgement, that's just reality). Which is why sometimes you can practice the crap out of a bkng trk and then go play the song with your band and realize that nothing you've 'practiced' works in the wild.

I will add a list of legendary 'pocket' players.
Both rhythm players and soloists (you have to 'solo' in the pocket too) in several genres ...

*This a partial, unordered and seriously incomplete list.

Cornell Dupree
Steve Cropper
Nile Rodgers
Eddie Van Halen
Robben Ford
Tom Morello
Roger Fisher
Randy Rhoads
Hendrix
Clapton
Jeff Beck
Grant Green
Ty Tabor
Jerry Garcia
Satriani
Carlos Alomar
Leslie West
Ritchie Blackmore
Steve Lukather
Jimmy Nolen
Al McKay
Danny Gatton
Brent Mason
Louie Shelton
David Lindley
Dan Kortchmar
James Taylor
Elliot Easton
Paul Jackson Jr.
Ray Parker Jr.
David Williams
Chuck Berry
Melvin Sparks
Elliot Randall
Rick Derringer
Jesse Ed Davis
Tony Maiden
George Benson
Phil Upchurch
Bruce Conti
Peter Frampton
Ron Wood & Keith Richards (especially together)
SRV
Johnny Winter
Albert King
Bonnie Raitt
Joe Walsh
Waddy Wachtel

I could go on for hours ...

This post has been edited by klasaine: Mar 30 2015, 07:56 PM


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Arpeggio
post Mar 31 2015, 02:01 PM
Post #7


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 113
Joined: 1-June 12
Member No.: 15.994



So you want to play as tight as an otters pocket.

With a metronome, beat or band don’t react to the beat, as in don’t listen for the beat and play your part in time to it, because if you do this you have to hear it, process it then translate that to your action on the instrument. A computer could probably do that accurately but not a human because you are almost constantly re-calculating, at least whenever you feel you need to adjust your time you are.

Instead lock into the tempo at the same pace, setting your own “internal metronome” to it.

To me staying in time is like how I would pace by the side of someone running. Don’t look sideways at them, look forward. If they creep away from or further into your field of vision adjust your speed slightly. If you look sideways at them you’re not concentrating on what you’re doing.

You’ve been practising for this since you where a child if you ever tapped your foot or moved your head to music, you aren’t reacting to the beat you’re a pacing to it and you don’t have to think about it. Use that action when playing guitar and it will help.

Recording helps because you can look at it visually as a snapshot of time stopped. Since recording I’ve got tighter and tighter judging by the sound waves visual proximity to the numbered horizontal beat line above the tracks on Cubase.

I don’t think playing in a band has any significant advantage over not, unless you are playing with Bill “the Buddha” Dickens or Victor Wooten!

Sometimes I use deliberately awful generic backing tracks as a challenge for my own creativity.


--------------------
Founder of new startup social network site that brings the good aspects of MySpace, Twitter and FaceBook together.

MyTwitFace.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
klasaine
post Mar 31 2015, 05:46 PM
Post #8


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 2.822
Joined: 30-December 12
From: Los Angeles, CA
Member No.: 17.304



My point being if you only play/record with backing tracks how do you know you're really nailing it?
Who checks your work?

This post has been edited by klasaine: Mar 31 2015, 05:48 PM


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kristofer Dahl
post Mar 31 2015, 10:28 PM
Post #9


GMC Founder & Rocker
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 15.180
Joined: 15-August 05
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Member No.: 2



This is a really cool topic!

@Ken - so basically your point is that you can't get feedback on your playing without the live setting?

Because I find the feedback I get through social media/Internet to be stimulating. If you post regularly it's easy to identify recordings that stick out in some way (good or bad). It's very much like testing with a real audience.

Of course the feedback you get this way is not instantaneous (unless you are doing a live broadcast - and even then there is a slight delay).

There is of course the magic of having musicians jamming in the same room and react to each other instantaneously - which is (to my knowledge) not possible to recreate in other ways (yet at least!).

Thanks for the list of guitarists btw, I am familiar with several of them. Even though they are amazing musicians, I don't really see how it is not possible to replicate their sense of groove/pocket, ie by jamming and transcribing their recordings?

QUOTE
Which is why sometimes you can practice the crap out of a bkng trk and then go play the song with your band and realize that nothing you've 'practiced' works in the wild.


I agree with this for sure, and I have experienced it myself. The opposite is probably true as well, and I am not sure it has to be a bad thing. Either way you approach it, if you are open for criticism you will evolve musically - and I guess that's what matters (regardless of who your other musicians/computers/etc are).

Btw that's another topic - but why do some people get so defensive when they get criticism? Isn't it awesome when someone takes the time speak their mind about the art you are working so hard on perfecting? Or perhaps the answer lies in the question - is it the musicians that have stopped perfecting that are so scared of feedback? Sorry off topic ph34r.gif

QUOTE (Jim S. @ Mar 30 2015, 01:22 PM) *
Every morning after my coffee I take an "in the pocket" pill. At first I didn't notice much but after a few months the change in my pocket felt further and further away. I really had to reach down, my body nearly at a tilt. My pockets got deeper and began serious head noddin and feet tapping to any music. The snare and bass seem to stand out even the music from kids toys. Soon I was like, whoa that's my jam. Still can't reach my money but.....I be tappin dat foot all day


Goodmorning gmc


If you get really deep in the pocket you will be able to fill your deep pocket with...ice cream tongue.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
klasaine
post Apr 1 2015, 03:05 PM
Post #10


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 2.822
Joined: 30-December 12
From: Los Angeles, CA
Member No.: 17.304



QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Mar 31 2015, 01:28 PM) *
Thanks for the list of guitarists btw, I am familiar with several of them. Even though they are amazing musicians, I don't really see how it is not possible to replicate their sense of groove/pocket, ie by jamming and transcribing their recordings?


Their 'pocket' at that moment was dependent upon everyone else's pocket at that moment.
Even they wouldn't play it the same way another time.
Those parts only work in those particular situations.

I'm not saying, in regard to this thread, that you can't learn decent time and the ability to play 'right' or 'good'. But the OP is referring to deep in the pocket. That is a whole other level. The level that makes your, an audience member as well as other musician's hair on the back of their neck stand up - live, streaming, recorded or otherwise. Those players I listed are at that level and you don't get there by playing only along with a track.

*If you have a decent amount of experience playing in a band you can tell if your pocket is right (or wrong) when you play with a track.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Apr 1 2015, 05:47 PM


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 1 2015, 10:49 PM
Post #11


GMC Founder & Rocker
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 15.180
Joined: 15-August 05
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Member No.: 2



Ok I guess this discussion boils down to how we define 'deep in the pocket'.

To me it's about finding the perfect place 'in between' the other elements of the mix/band. I don't necessarily see the live interaction as a necessary element to achieve this, although it is definitely a closely related topic.

@Leonard478 please be sure to check out fzalfas progress in the ongoing collab. To me it seems he is approaching the pocket at cruising speed:
https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...st&p=709069


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Bogdan Radovic
post Apr 1 2015, 11:10 PM
Post #12


Bass & Beginner Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 15.612
Joined: 30-November 07
From: Belgrade, Serbia
Member No.: 3.410



This is a very interesting discussion. I'd just like to add what cool bass teacher taught me is that "the pocket" is usually (not always but really in most of the cases) found right behind the beat. Now, what I had trouble understanding here is what is behind the beat exactly. He described it to me like having two pictures which are semi transparent one on top of the other. One picture being the band and the other one being the bass guitar which needs to find the pocket. At one point the pictures are on top of each other and match up perfectly. Try moving the bass picture slightly to the right. Just a few millimeters would do it. In practice this means you'd hear a kick drum and then you'd play just after it (talking here just slightly, in milliseconds). It is a weird feeling but when you play bass guitar and search for this pocket, you can hear when you get inside it. Somehow everything feels "like one" and bass sits in there perfectly and feels at home and you feel the groove going on.

Having said this, I think the worst enemy of playing in the pocket is to play ahead of the beat (anti-beat). On top of the beat usually works okish, but try being late on purpose and see how it feels. See if you can find that perfect timing/space where it just feels right to play the note/strum.

I never really thought about this much in terms of live playing vs backing tracks. I guess the hardest thing with the pocket is to actually figure out and know what it feels like. Live playing and finding a pocket definitely depends on each person as drummer and everyone else will be all over the place tempo wise (ok some bands might actually play robotic perfect). This also adds a crazy level of difficulty as not only you need to find your pocket but you need to move it around as live band breathes. In terms of this, I think that finding a picket for your instrument be it a guitar or bass or whatever, should be easier then as you know what you can expect (as you get familiar with the recording or the recording features "perfectly programmed" drums in terms of timing).

I must say that I'm finding this thread really interesting and it is making me think in new ways and in new dimensions.

To me it sounds like leonard478 is looking for a way to develop better rhythm and time keeping skills with combination of finding the pocket and spending most of the time grooving in it. To do this Leo, my suggestion would be to tackle as many funk lessons as you can. Both ones with single string licks and ones comping or featuring strumming rhythms. Please let me know if you need some lesson suggestions.



--------------------
For GMC support please email support (at) guitarmasterclass.net
Check out my lessons and my instructor board.
Check out my beginner guitar lessons course! ; Take a bass course now!
My solo and band songs : Keep Going On, Night Vibe, Kad Te Vidim, Susret, Plava Silueta
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Todd Simpson
post Apr 2 2015, 05:14 AM
Post #13


GMC:er
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 14.466
Joined: 23-December 09
From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Member No.: 8.794



WELL SAID KLASAIN!!. Spot on. Bogdan has a great suggestion about prepping with lots of Jazz/funk lessons from GMC!! Once you get your new licks/timing working, you gotta play with folks to make them stick.

Todd

QUOTE (klasaine @ Mar 29 2015, 09:29 PM) *
Play live with 'people'. Preferably one's that are better than you. And do it a lot. Once a week minimum for several hours. Rehearsals, jams, gigs, etc. Play, play, play.
Also - listen to tons of groove music. funk, soul, jazz, disco, hip-hop ...
There is no other way. No technique. No method.
Full stop.


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Apr 2 2015, 05:16 AM


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
klasaine
post Apr 2 2015, 05:57 AM
Post #14


GMC:er
*

Group: Members
Posts: 2.822
Joined: 30-December 12
From: Los Angeles, CA
Member No.: 17.304



In relation to what Bogdan mentions, but maybe a little OT is that the pocket can be in different places for the different players/instruments in the band and on whatever particular song ... or style.
A classic example is the Police. Sting is behind (or on the bottom) of the beat and Stewart Copeland is way on top. Uncomfortably so sometimes but it works.
New Orleans style Rock and Roll as well as their brand of soul, funk and blues will combine both straight R&R guitar with swing style drums. It's weird but it feels good.
*One of the reasons a lot of oldies cover bands sound like shite on the old rock and roll songs is that they haven't studied the 'feel'. Elvis, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Jerry Lee Lewis, etc. had this whole swing v. straight thing going on. It's really sublime but it's absolutely essential and it 'makes' the tunes. The Stones, the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Sabbath, Rod Stewart - they understood it. That's one of the reasons they were able to carry the R&R torch forward.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Apr 2 2015, 05:58 AM


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Fast ReplyReply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 


RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 26th May 2017 - 08:43 AM