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> Hone Your Tone - Gmc Workshop!, Let's work together towards your dream sound!
HiimAlex
post Apr 16 2015, 09:59 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Apr 16 2015, 08:04 PM) *
Thanks for the reply - this is great, I think we will be able to up your sound quite a bit!

Recording 3 m away from the amp is a 'no no', especially in a untreated room. The sound you get is the same as if you applied a super low quality reverb mixed 100%.

I see the Orange Micro Terror has "phones" output, this kind of output almost always has some kind of speaker simulation / treble attenuator applied to it, and should be perfect to direct record with. Have you tried connecting the phones output directly to the computer? (in other words without using any mic)


Thanks for your reply Kris.
I have tried to record while I had quite much gain on the Orange Micro terror and got kind of crappy results, but since I run the Micro Terror on clean settings now it could have other results.
The Digitech Gnx2 also has a headphones output, I can try to record directly from the Gnx2 and see what sounds best smile.gif
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Mertay
post Apr 16 2015, 10:49 PM
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QUOTE (HiimAlex @ Apr 16 2015, 06:22 PM) *
Hey! smile.gif
So I managed to record a take even if my guitar playing is far from perfect.
I used Fender MiM Strat -> Digitech Gnx2 -> Orange Micro Terror -> Orange 1x8 cab
On the Digitech Gnx2 I was modelling a 65' Fender Twin Reverb through a 2x12 and Matchless DC30 through a 4x12.
I warp these amps together.
The effects I used on this take was Reverb, Chorus and a Noise Gate.



All feedback is appreciated smile.gif
Alex


So on the digitech you are using 2 amps and 2 cab.s at the same time (probably parallel) and from the digitechs output, carrying that signal to the input of the orange amp?

This post has been edited by Mertay: Apr 16 2015, 10:49 PM


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HiimAlex
post Apr 17 2015, 06:20 AM
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QUOTE (Mertay @ Apr 16 2015, 09:49 PM) *
So on the digitech you are using 2 amps and 2 cab.s at the same time (probably parallel) and from the digitechs output, carrying that signal to the input of the orange amp?


Exactly smile.gif
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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 17 2015, 07:28 AM
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QUOTE (HiimAlex @ Apr 16 2015, 09:59 PM) *
Thanks for your reply Kris.
I have tried to record while I had quite much gain on the Orange Micro terror and got kind of crappy results, but since I run the Micro Terror on clean settings now it could have other results.
The Digitech Gnx2 also has a headphones output, I can try to record directly from the Gnx2 and see what sounds best smile.gif


If you are used to hearing the "amp in the room" kind of sound - direct recording might sound weird at first.

But it would definitely be interesting to hear you record directly from either of the units. Perhaps lowering the tone knob on the Orange amp can make the distorted sounds less 'treblish'?

Once you have recorded the direct signal, we can always add pro sounding reverb later on, and that will give you the "Amp in the room" sound but in a more professional way.


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Mertay
post Apr 17 2015, 09:22 AM
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QUOTE (HiimAlex @ Apr 17 2015, 05:20 AM) *
Exactly smile.gif


Ah ok, the problem is with the orange amp you're distorting your modulation FX (reverb/delay etc.) probably thats why you didn't like the sound. Turn them off from the digitech and if you like, then the orange can be distorted more. They can be added to the end of chain as Kristofer mentioned.

I'm all for tone experimentation, using amps from processor for overdriving your orange amp is a cool idea but not sure about usings cab.s. They are essentially filters yes but try tweaking the tone with disabling them from processor (if you're going to use the orange's cab. for recording) and use eq's if possible cause as you progress or use more analog gear in the future this will be your approach to tone.

Kristofer's comment on direct signal recording is spot on, I'd love to hear you try this smile.gif

This post has been edited by Mertay: Apr 17 2015, 09:24 AM


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Beat Zbinden
post Apr 17 2015, 02:21 PM
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Hi

This is my Sound for this Backing Track.

I work with the Fractal Audio AXE FX Mark 2
The Sound is based on Marshall JTM 45 with a Drive in Front and a Ping Pong Delay and a Reverb.
Direct in Logic X.
My Guitar is a Ibanez JEM 7V
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Attached File  Dream_Sound.mp3 ( 1.21MB ) Number of downloads: 85
 
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Phil66
post Apr 17 2015, 08:47 PM
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I'm definitely in, give me a few more days please.

Another thing a lot of people don't realise is how much the "volume" knob on the guitar changes the sound. Many, myself included until recently; use it more like and on/off device. Maybe that could be discussed/explained a little.

Thanks

Phil


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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 17 2015, 09:37 PM
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QUOTE (Beat Zbinden @ Apr 17 2015, 02:21 PM) *
Hi

This is my Sound for this Backing Track.

I work with the Fractal Audio AXE FX Mark 2
The Sound is based on Marshall JTM 45 with a Drive in Front and a Ping Pong Delay and a Reverb.
Direct in Logic X.
My Guitar is a Ibanez JEM 7V


Cool Beat, this is spot on. To me this tone fits the mix and backing great - and the sound and distortion character is tasty and seems to match your style well.

I have a slight feeling you could glue your better with the rest of the instruments. I am not speaking about an EQ problem or anything like that - I think the solution is simply to lower volume of your guitar a tiny bit. You could aim to have it the same volume as the snare hits. Kick and snare seem to be the loudest instruments of the backing track.

I am listening with (studio) headphones now - and it would be interesting to hear what others think.

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Apr 17 2015, 08:47 PM) *
I'm definitely in, give me a few more days please.

Another thing a lot of people don't realise is how much the "volume" knob on the guitar changes the sound. Many, myself included until recently; use it more like and on/off device. Maybe that could be discussed/explained a little.

Thanks

Phil


Excellent Phil, looking forward to it. And thanks for coming up with the idea of this workshop here. cool.gif

And yep I think we will come to discussing the volume knob as it's such an integral part of tweaking sound.

QUOTE (Mertay @ Apr 17 2015, 09:22 AM) *
Ah ok, the problem is with the orange amp you're distorting your modulation FX (reverb/delay etc.) probably thats why you didn't like the sound. Turn them off from the digitech and if you like, then the orange can be distorted more. They can be added to the end of chain as Kristofer mentioned.

I'm all for tone experimentation, using amps from processor for overdriving your orange amp is a cool idea but not sure about usings cab.s. They are essentially filters yes but try tweaking the tone with disabling them from processor (if you're going to use the orange's cab. for recording) and use eq's if possible cause as you progress or use more analog gear in the future this will be your approach to tone.


@ Alex - Mertay has a good point here. But don't worry too much about it, let's just take it step by step and I am quite sure we'll see see a significant improvement of your sound.

I am looking forward to hearing that direct recording we spoke about!


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Caelumamittendum
post Apr 17 2015, 10:29 PM
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Here's a quick improv over the track.

I use BIAS from Positive grid.

Let me know what I can do to improve this. smile.gif
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Attached File  Hone_your_tone.mp3 ( 1.45MB ) Number of downloads: 92
 


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MisterM
post Apr 18 2015, 07:04 AM
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Hi Kristofer

First : Your guitar playing is great , I love your legato , I hope in the future play that way

2d : This thread is awesome.

I took one hour this morning to translate because automatic translators do a bad job .
Sometimes it's difficult for me to answer because the sentences are inconsistent.

Advice on making sound are great.
I begin to understand some of the subtleties regarding the time effects - delay and reverb

My mistake :
Distortion : too much gain, too much treeble on tone
Delay : too much time, dry and feedback

Today I reduce all effects, because my hands and my fingers are little bit flexible.
I think it's important to say that effects mask the defects of beginner and we need time to admit it.
Daily, guitarist improves and reduces the effects.....

If I have a time, I 'll hope to play on the track....

This post has been edited by MisterM: Apr 18 2015, 07:28 AM


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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 18 2015, 08:29 AM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Apr 17 2015, 10:29 PM) *
Here's a quick improv over the track.

I use BIAS from Positive grid.

Let me know what I can do to improve this. smile.gif


Thanks Cael, your take can be heard very well without it being louder than the backing - well done!

To me - the biggest improvement here would be to get rid of some of those nasty treble frequencies. It's not super bad in any way, but I think this is a typical 'problem' for people with metal background, where treble is a must to even be heard. On this track it's not really needed - and it takes away the warmth we're looking for. In technical terms, there is lots of EQ space on this backing track compared to a metal/rock backing. So rather than dialing in extra treble in order to be heard, we can go for a warmer sound, that would - again - not work on a rock/metal backing.

If I were given your guitar-only-track the first thing I would reach out for would be a wide EQ scoop in the 2-4K region of ~2DB (so again it's a matter of subtle tweaking).

In Bias you would try to turn down the treble knob, while keeping the presence knob where it's at (if there are such controls - haven't tried that software).

However the easiest way to solve this is probably to use the treble knob on your guitar, as it will usually keep the top end while removing harsh treble. Again, this is not something you would typically do in metal/rock (I guess people even tend to remove the treble knob) - but it's very effective for other genres.

Also the earlier in the signal chain you can fix an EQ problem the better, because cutting afterwards is bound to make the signal weaker and remove mojo. But if you do it before the amp, then the amp's distortion will add "what is not there" - and that is the whole magic with distortion.

Let me know what you think!

QUOTE (MisterM @ Apr 18 2015, 07:04 AM) *
Hi Kristofer

First : Your guitar playing is great , I love your legato , I hope in the future play that way

2d : This thread is awesome.

I took one hour this morning to translate because automatic translators do a bad job .
Sometimes it's difficult for me to answer because the sentences are inconsistent.

Advice on making sound are great.
I begin to understand some of the subtleties regarding the time effects - delay and reverb

My mistake :
Distortion : too much gain, too much treeble on tone
Delay : too much time, dry and feedback

Today I reduce all effects, because my hands and my fingers are little bit flexible.
I think it's important to say that effects mask the defects of beginner and we need time to admit it.
Daily, guitarist improves and reduces the effects.....

If I have a time, I 'll hope to play on the track....


Excellent, it sounds like you are working in the right direction. Can't wait to hear what you come up with. Thanks a million for the kind words! biggrin.gif


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MisterM
post Apr 18 2015, 10:29 AM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Apr 17 2015, 09:29 PM) *
Here's a quick improv over the track.

I use BIAS from Positive grid.

Let me know what I can do to improve this. smile.gif



Nice take, it's mix groove and sweetness smile.gif


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HiimAlex
post Apr 18 2015, 07:28 PM
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Thanks for you help and answers Mertay and Kris! smile.gif
Here is a new video, I used the "phones" out on the Digitech today because I liked the prefer more than going Guitar->Digitech->Orange Micro Terror. The sound is based on a Mesa Boogie Mark IV and effects was same as last (reverb and chorus).

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Mertay
post Apr 18 2015, 08:19 PM
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QUOTE (HiimAlex @ Apr 18 2015, 06:28 PM) *
...


Much better! there is still just a little bit more room for improving but I'll leave that to kris smile.gif

HiimAlex, I didn't ask before do you have a soundcard or know how to use a DAW or fx from DAW? if no, just open a topic and pm the link to me incase I miss to see it and I'll help if needed smile.gif


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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 18 2015, 08:36 PM
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QUOTE (HiimAlex @ Apr 18 2015, 07:28 PM) *
Thanks for you help and answers Mertay and Kris! smile.gif
Here is a new video, I used the "phones" out on the Digitech today because I liked the prefer more than going Guitar->Digitech->Orange Micro Terror. The sound is based on a Mesa Boogie Mark IV and effects was same as last (reverb and chorus).



Awesome Alex - getting rid of your room's reverberation meant a big step in the right direction! Well done! I still feel we should be able to improve your sound, and I have ben trying to think what pulls it down, in order of priority:

* Playing - 'sound is in the fingers' and around 00:25 you play with more conviction, using rakes and more powerful picking. Do that from the beginning, and try to only use the notes you think sound best from the scale.

* Reverb/chorus. I think this might be the biggest remaining tone problem. Both of these are easy to do wrong and therefore clash with the backing (which has its own reverbs). I would suggest you skip those effects and try delay instead to get a bigger sound. I found the manual and delay options seem pretty good (page 33 here).
Questions:
- are you recording a stereo signal?
- what DAW are you using (name and version number would help)

* I think your guitar needs to be turned up a little in the mix (a little louder).


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HiimAlex
post Apr 18 2015, 10:28 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Apr 18 2015, 07:36 PM) *
Awesome Alex - getting rid of your room's reverberation meant a big step in the right direction! Well done! I still feel we should be able to improve your sound, and I have ben trying to think what pulls it down, in order of priority:

* Playing - 'sound is in the fingers' and around 00:25 you play with more conviction, using rakes and more powerful picking. Do that from the beginning, and try to only use the notes you think sound best from the scale.

* Reverb/chorus. I think this might be the biggest remaining tone problem. Both of these are easy to do wrong and therefore clash with the backing (which has its own reverbs). I would suggest you skip those effects and try delay instead to get a bigger sound. I found the manual and delay options seem pretty good (page 33 here).
Questions:
- are you recording a stereo signal?
- what DAW are you using (name and version number would help)

* I think your guitar needs to be turned up a little in the mix (a little louder).


Thanks for your feedback Kristofer, I can agree that it definitely sounds better without room reverberation.
I can try with some different delays for sure to see which one I like best, what delay do you usually use?
At the moment I do not use a stereo signal, but I can record with a stereo signal.
I use Reaper v4.731.
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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 19 2015, 08:25 AM
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QUOTE (HiimAlex @ Apr 18 2015, 10:28 PM) *
Thanks for your feedback Kristofer, I can agree that it definitely sounds better without room reverberation.
I can try with some different delays for sure to see which one I like best, what delay do you usually use?
At the moment I do not use a stereo signal, but I can record with a stereo signal.
I use Reaper v4.731.


Great! The standard is actually to record in mono, and add the delay/chorus/reverb in the DAW. Since you use reaper you have access to a killer delay plugin call "Readelay" (page 12 here).

So I suggest you record a dry signal to reaper and do the rest of the experimenting there.

Readelay seems extremely flexible and you can add as many delays as you want to. With a risk of complicating this, I will try to explain what I aim for when dialing in delay for this kind of solo sound.

----

A non audible stereo delay to increase width and fatness: A common misconception is to dial in fatness through EQ, but a lot of it comes from time based effects. With this delay I will have:

- One delay panned hard left (use readelay's "stereo width"), delay time ~200 ms (Readelay's "Length (time)", with only one reptition (this is usually called "feedback")

- One delay panned hard right (use readelay's "stereo width"), delay time ~300 ms (Readelay's "Length (time)", with only one reptition (this is usually called "feedback")

Both of these should be EQ:ed so that only frequencies in the ~300-3000Hz region are repeated (use Readelay's Highpass and Low pass filter).

If you get this delay right it will make you sound much bigger , wider and fatter - without creating any audible delay (again you will only hear the difference when switching the effect on and off). So its important to mix the delay low (Readelay's "Volume")

I realise I got very technical here so please ask me follow-up question so I can clarify further. If you don't want to bother with this technical stuff then just spend some time experimenting. After all that's what I have been doing to find settings that work for me.

I will also you use at least one more separate delay which has more audible feedback (usually in 16th or 8th notes).


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Sensible Jones
post Apr 20 2015, 12:38 PM
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Here's my first one Kris. So, instead of going to one of my saved patches I started from scratch.
Signal Chain is:-
G&L ASAT Tele Deluxe -> Interface -> Cakewalk X2 Producer -> Acme Bar Gig Amp/Speaker sim.
https://soundcloud.com/neilwaller/tonehone


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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 20 2015, 01:35 PM
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QUOTE (Sensible Jones @ Apr 20 2015, 12:38 PM) *
Here's my first one Kris. So, instead of going to one of my saved patches I started from scratch.
Signal Chain is:-
G&L ASAT Tele Deluxe -> Interface -> Cakewalk X2 Producer -> Acme Bar Gig Amp/Speaker sim.
https://soundcloud.com/neilwaller/tonehone


Thanks Sensible, those are some neat lines!

The #1 thing that strikes me is that your guitar take is too loud.

Secondly - it feels very dry and (possibly) on the 'treblish' side. However I find it difficult to say for sure when you lead is so loud.

I would suggest resting your ears a little, adjust the volume again, maybe listen to a reference track of a similar genre (NB on the same monitors), tweak some more and let your ears rest again.

The tone does feel organic with a very nice distortion though, so this should be a good starting point to perfect your sound.



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Sensible Jones
post Apr 20 2015, 02:48 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Apr 20 2015, 01:35 PM) *
Thanks Sensible, those are some neat lines!

The #1 thing that strikes me is that your guitar take is too loud.

Secondly - it feels very dry and (possibly) on the 'treblish' side. However I find it difficult to say for sure when you lead is so loud.

I would suggest resting your ears a little, adjust the volume again, maybe listen to a reference track of a similar genre (NB on the same monitors), tweak some more and let your ears rest again.

The tone does feel organic with a very nice distortion though, so this should be a good starting point to perfect your sound.

OK, will drop the level on the next one.
It is quite dry, no Modulation Reverb or Delay. I'll bring the treble down a bit too, would you do this on the Amp model or would you add an EQ in the chain somewhere?


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