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> Hone Your Tone - Gmc Workshop!, Let's work together towards your dream sound!
Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 20 2015, 03:09 PM
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QUOTE (Sensible Jones @ Apr 20 2015, 02:48 PM) *
It is quite dry, no Modulation Reverb or Delay. I'll bring the treble down a bit too, would you do this on the Amp model or would you add an EQ in the chain somewhere?


I would probably first try it on the guitar with tone knob, if you are happy with the patch. Otherwise tweaking the amp model is probably logical thing to do. The only thing you should try to avoid is to do it afterwards in your DAW (though that can be ok as well, in small amounts).


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Mertay
post Apr 20 2015, 03:17 PM
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Quick mix tip; Probably every DAW has a mono button on its master channel, matching level in mono might be easier.


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Sensible Jones
post Apr 20 2015, 03:33 PM
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OK, dropped in the mix and tweaked the Amp sim.
https://soundcloud.com/neilwaller/tonehone-2


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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 20 2015, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE (Sensible Jones @ Apr 20 2015, 03:33 PM) *
OK, dropped in the mix and tweaked the Amp sim.
https://soundcloud.com/neilwaller/tonehone-2


Thanks! The lead is now a bit too low to my ears (sorry for constant nagging ph34r.gif ) - see my previous advice, as tweaking volumes is difficult. The key is to reference other mixes and let your ears rest in between. Mertay's suggestion is worth testing as well (I will also start doing it, I don't check my mixes that often in mono).

However, it is much easier for me to comment on your sound now, and I can immediately tell that your sound has no problems cutting through this mix. I can also tell it's a bit thin sounding.

The first thing I would try is the midrange knob on the amp sim, and then the bass knob. Try to get a warmer sound, there is lots of space for low midrange in this mix.

An overdrive pedal can also add warmth, though I usually reach for the amp's EQ first.

As mentioned your sound is dry - and this is not necessarily a bad thing. However a little bit of delay/reverb is almost a must for the sake of 'gluing' your instrument in the mix. Without it, we get the impression you are standing right beside us and the band is playing 10 meters further away.

I would suggest you start with adding delay. You should be able to add a subtle delay without compromising too much on your vision of a dry sound.

As mentioned before I think it's a bit more difficult to find a suitable reverb - as it should preferably match the reverb Stephane used when mixing the backing track.

Looking forward to get an update from you! biggrin.gif


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Mertay
post Apr 21 2015, 09:01 AM
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Balancing levels can be annoying because there is something called the equal loudness contour (also called Fletcher-Munson curves); http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour .

Simply; A sources freq. response can change depending how loud we listen to it. It's a part of our nature on how we hear sounds and we start to adjust to it when dealing with music.

So although we like a guitar sound solo in a certain listening level, the moment we change its level to fit a backing track it can get muddy or harsh even if the level balance is perfect. Or vice versa, the backing track is adjusted to a different loudness contour and again we must adjust the guitar to it...

Actually I think this is why many amps has a "presence" knob as notice although it works as an eq, its prefered not to be labeled like that. When adjusting amp tone without a backing track, try keeping it close to the middle position as much as possible so we can later use it to balance with a track. So first adjust level, then if there is harshness or mud in tone then go for the presence knob.

This should help but if not enough, then go for the eq's on the amp. Start testing from high to low (probably you won't need to tweak the low eq) and tweak them as light as possible. Just remember, while tweaking you're not dealing with guitar tone anymore, its about eliminating mud or harshness.

We can go in much greater detail for this subject (equal loudness contour) but lets keep it in the guitar fashion otherwise it will be complicated and not fun. But I honestly think tips shared (and will be shared as requested) here should be enough.

This post has been edited by Mertay: Apr 21 2015, 10:36 AM


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clashchords
post Apr 21 2015, 03:50 PM
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First time I've placed anything on the forum so..hello!

I'm playing an Ibanez Iron Label (neck pickup-EMG) through a Focusrite 2i2 into Reaper with the following VSTs:

TSE 808
Nick Crow 8505 Lead
Ignite Amps NadIr v 1.0.2 (s-preshigh and Blackcat Leon S7 impulses)
Reaper JS delay
Cockos ReaEQ

I've been spending several weeks trying to get a decent tone from my DAW and when I saw this on the front page of the website I couldn't have been more happier! So here you go!

https://soundcloud.com/clashchords/honeyrtone
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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 21 2015, 04:15 PM
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Awesome to have you in clashchords - welcome to the forum! biggrin.gif There are some greta melodies in your take.

First: well done dialing in the delay, this is a very good starting point. It's discrete but does its job - if you want even more on top of this you can tweak away to your taste, but only if you feel the need.

As with others - your take is too loud. And this works to your disadvantage. However I must say, thanks to the delay your take already fits better in the mix (in spite of the high volume).

Tone wise - this feels more like metal sound to me. It's lacking warmth/body, it's a bit too "treblish" / bright - and in my opinion a bit too much distortion.

With the little experience I have with active emgs, I know they can be tricky to use for non metal genres. However I am sure you can get closer. So I recommend:

* lower the gain (try on both the amp and tube screamer and see which one you prefer)

* increase mid range and (maybe) also bass

* lower treble if still needed (on your guitar, TS808 or/and amp sim)

The setup you have TS808 + hi-gain 8505 is very typical to metal rhythm guitar. Perhaps you want to try swapping both? Ie don't use and overdive/booster and go for a more dynamic amp (less hi gain). I realise this might not suit your taste though, so feel free to keep tweaking your current rig (and then post a new audio clip).

Let me know what you think!



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clashchords
post Apr 21 2015, 05:17 PM
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Thanks for all your input Kris! I am ALWAYS being told by my friends to turn my treble and distortion down! laugh.gif Here's a new version. I turned off the 808, switched the amp and just kept the Blackat Leon impulse. I also did some tweaking with the eq settings and turned the solo volume in the mix down. Let me know what you think.

https://soundcloud.com/clashchords/honeyrtone2
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Phil66
post Apr 21 2015, 08:36 PM
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Ok here's my first attempt. Sorry I've taken so long but things have been bad here.

Guitar was a stock Ibanez RG1570 on bridge pickup with tone and vol all the way up. Amplitube settings are in images below, I thought this would be easier than explaining wink.gif

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/take-1

Pedals


Amp


Cab


Rack FX


Please advise.

Thank you.

Phil

This post has been edited by Phil66: Apr 22 2015, 08:58 PM


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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 21 2015, 09:04 PM
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QUOTE (clashchords @ Apr 21 2015, 06:17 PM) *
Thanks for all your input Kris! I am ALWAYS being told by my friends to turn my treble and distortion down! laugh.gif Here's a new version. I turned off the 808, switched the amp and just kept the Blackat Leon impulse. I also did some tweaking with the eq settings and turned the solo volume in the mix down. Let me know what you think.

https://soundcloud.com/clashchords/honeyrtone2


Excellent - this is so much better!

The only "big" thing remaining to my ears, would be to give you sound some body (=midrange and bass). It's still very thin sounding.

Turn the midrange knob up, if that doesn't sound right then try other amp sims. You might have to go through a whole bunch.

There is nothing wrong with your sound, but considering this backing track is just begging for a fat lead tone to take up space - it's a shame you don't utilise it. Your tone would work in combination with another lead (or maybe vocals) - but as it is now your kinda leaving a midrange hole - if that make sense.

Take some space man! Most times lead guitarists are told to back off, but this time I am asking you to take some space! biggrin.gif

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Apr 21 2015, 09:36 PM) *
Ok here's my first attempt. Sorry I've taken so long but things have been bad here.

Guitar was a stock Ibanez RG1570 on bridge pickup with tone and vol all the way up. Amplitube settings are in images below, I thought this would be easier than explaining wink.gif

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/take-1

Pedals


Amp


Cab


Rack FX


Please advise.

Thank you.

Phil


Very nice Phil, this is good. I would probably lower the guitar just a liiiittle bit - but other than that I think this one works in the mix. The rest is just personal preference, but since I have lots of personal preferences I'll keep going wink.gif

This one has a lot of fizzy treble - which I personally try to stay away from. Especially with soft backings such as this one. I can see your treble knob is way up on the amp. Try lowering it - because with the presence knob ~ where it is you will still be heard.

Distortion: to me this is almost too much - however there is often a correlation between treble and the amount of perceived distortion. So I find it's easier to get away with lots of distortion if you are careful not to overdo the treble. So in other words I would first address the treble issue and then maybe you can keep this amount of distortion.


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Phil66
post Apr 21 2015, 10:17 PM
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Thanks Kris,

I can't try tonight now but how do you think a quick switch to the neck pickup would sound?

Cheers

Phil


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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 22 2015, 06:09 AM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Apr 21 2015, 11:17 PM) *
Thanks Kris,

I can't try tonight now but how do you think a quick switch to the neck pickup would sound?

Cheers

Phil

Its definitely worth testing, but I doubt it will remove all treble I am hearing. Treble knob on the guitar is also worth testing.


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clashchords
post Apr 22 2015, 08:40 PM
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Here's another adjustment to the mix, but i think the lead volume may be too loud? I'm also beginning to wonder how well I can polish this solo with freeware. EMGs are probably not ideal for the solo either.



https://soundcloud.com/clashchords/soul-rnb-blues-backing-track-in-b-minor-solo5
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Phil66
post Apr 22 2015, 09:10 PM
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Hello Kris,

Hey, it would be great if this workshop could keep on running, maybe a different style so that we can all have our own melodic sound, texas blues sound, rock sound etc etc etc. It's more fun than I thought it would be smile.gif

Anyway, here's some more noodling. Sorry but I changed the guitar, it's a PRS SE Custom 24. It's a 7 string but didn't manage to use the 7th on this wink.gif I never even thought about changing the sound in the post rolleyes.gif So I just did some more noodling on a different guitar. Sorry unsure.gif, at least it gave me some improvising practise wink.gif

I only altered three areas and the images are below the Soundcloud wink.gif

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/take-3

Take 2 Stomp


Take 2 amp


Take 2 cab


Cheers

Phil

This post has been edited by Phil66: Apr 22 2015, 09:23 PM


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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 22 2015, 09:23 PM
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QUOTE (clashchords @ Apr 22 2015, 09:40 PM) *
Here's another adjustment to the mix, but i think the lead volume may be too loud? I'm also beginning to wonder how well I can polish this solo with freeware. EMGs are probably not ideal for the solo either.



https://soundcloud.com/clashchords/soul-rnb-blues-backing-track-in-b-minor-solo5


Freeware is not a problem, and we should be able to work around those EMGs!

Can you post a screenshot of the settings? Your tone is lacking midrange and bass - i still think just turning those knobs up should help. Keep using the neck pickup!

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Apr 22 2015, 10:10 PM) *
Hello Kris,

Hey, it would be great if this workshop could keep on running, maybe a different style so that we can all have our own melodic sound, texas blues sound, rock sound etc etc etc. It's more fun than I thought it would be smile.gif

Anyway, here's some more noodling. Sorry but I changed the guitar, it's a PRS SE Custom 24. It's a 7 string but didn't manage to use the 7th on this wink.gif I never even thought about changing the sound in the post rolleyes.gif So I just did some more noodling on a different guitar. Sorry unsure.gif, at least it gave me some improvising practise wink.gif

I only altered three areas and the images are below the Soundcloud wink.gif

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/take-2

Take 2 Stomp


Take 2 amp


Take 2 cab


Cheers

Phil


Very good Phil, you fixed both issues (too much treble and distortion)!

Further tweaks would be to adjust effects mix (maybe make the sound a little dryer), and turn your take up a little bit. However I don't think you need me to tell you this stuff, you should keep experimenting with new tones for every recording you do - and keep improving to your taste.

Having said this - I think it's safe to say the biggest improvement possibilities now lie in your playing style, and this is sort of the goal with this workshop - to be able to exclude the sound factor.

In other words you would be able to get a much better sound - by working on your picking dynamics control, timing, vibrato, etc - the usual things we discuss! cool.gif

Great idea to do this workshop for another type of backing track. Ie a metal backing would call for completely different thinking.


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bleez
post Apr 22 2015, 09:44 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Apr 22 2015, 09:10 PM) *
Anyway, here's some more noodling. Sorry but I changed the guitar, it's a PRS SE Custom 24. It's a 7 string but didn't manage to use the 7th on this wink.gif I never even thought about changing the sound in the post rolleyes.gif So I just did some more noodling on a different guitar. Sorry unsure.gif, at least it gave me some improvising practise wink.gif

I only altered three areas and the images are below the Soundcloud wink.gif

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/take-3

FWIW duder, That is none too shabby at all, I liked it a lot. The new guitar sounds very nice indeed smile.gif


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Phil66
post Apr 22 2015, 10:03 PM
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QUOTE (bleez @ Apr 22 2015, 09:44 PM) *
FWIW duder, That is none too shabby at all, I liked it a lot. The new guitar sounds very nice indeed smile.gif


Thanks Scott, much appreciated. I've only just come into this so haven't seen if you have a post. I'll look tomorrow.

Cheers buddy

QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Apr 22 2015, 09:23 PM) *
Very good Phil, you fixed both issues (too much treble and distortion)!

Further tweaks would be to adjust effects mix (maybe make the sound a little dryer), and turn your take up a little bit. However I don't think you need me to tell you this stuff, you should keep experimenting with new tones for every recording you do - and keep improving to your taste.

Having said this - I think it's safe to say the biggest improvement possibilities now lie in your playing style, and this is sort of the goal with workshop - to be able to exclude the sound factor.

In other words you would be able to get a much better sound - by working on your picking dynamics control, timing, vibrato, etc - the usual things we discuss! cool.gif

Great idea to do this workshop for another type of backing track. Ie a metal backing would call for completely different thinking.


Thanks Kris,

At this rate I won't have time to fit all my lessons in laugh.gif bending, vibrato, alternate picking, dynamics, solo, rhythm, theory, ear training laugh.gif

I know I said a Texas blues workshop would be good but specifically I meant the great SRV, most of us won't be using 15's but we could try to get close to his tone couldn't we? unsure.gif

Cheers

Phil


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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 22 2015, 10:37 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Apr 22 2015, 11:03 PM) *
I know I said a Texas blues workshop would be good but specifically I meant the great SRV, most of us won't be using 15's but we could try to get close to his tone couldn't we? unsure.gif


For sure!

I could help you get a tone that works for a bluesier mix, but I am not experienced enough to help you get a specific blues/SRV sound.

However I am sure you can get very close to it without using obnoxious string gauge. And it will be a combination of a 'verge-of-breakup' sound and typical blues cliche techniques.

But this makes me think we should perhaps do a blues collab next, I can't remember last time we did one? Nothing beats playing the blues!


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Phil66
post Apr 23 2015, 07:26 AM
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I was thinking exactly that about a blues collab myself, maybe along the lines of Tin Pan Alley or Redhouse wink.gif





Cheers

Phil

This post has been edited by Phil66: Apr 23 2015, 07:35 AM


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Kristofer Dahl
post Apr 23 2015, 08:51 AM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Apr 23 2015, 08:26 AM) *
I was thinking exactly that about a blues collab myself, maybe along the lines of Tin Pan Alley or Redhouse wink.gif


Cheers

Phil


This one gave me some ideas for the coming collab, thanks! If i can realize my vision it will very cool, watch this space..!


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