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> Rec Grading Tweaks #2
Kristofer Dahl
post Jun 9 2015, 10:04 AM
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From time to time we need to review the REC grading standards - just like we did two years ago:
https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...showtopic=48320

It's time again for instructors to get a little bit stricter with their grading. The goal with the REC grades is obviously not to make our students happy for the day, but rather have you become fantastic guitarists over time.

I am posting this in case some of you wonder where this change is coming from.


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Phil66
post Jun 9 2015, 02:37 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Jun 9 2015, 10:04 AM) *
From time to time we need to review the REC grading standards - just like we did two years ago:
https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...showtopic=48320

It's time again for instructors to get a little bit stricter with their grading. The goal with the REC grades is obviously not to make our students happy for the day, but rather have you become fantastic guitarists over time.

I am posting this in case some of you wonder where this change is coming from.


Just a thought and excuse me if I'm interfering. Would it be a good idea to allow instructors to give half points? Sometimes you can get three 7s then improve but still only get three 7s because you're not quite an 8 and you need an average of 7.5 to pass. I 100% don't agree with false praise but I think it would be nice to see a "very nearly there" factor of you were only "nearly there" last time.

Cheers and sorry if I'm putting my nose in where it shouldn't be rolleyes.gif


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Tom51
post Jun 9 2015, 03:25 PM
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Hello Kris,
I am 100% with you. A REC level should be worth something! No question.

If I want to pass the tests for the drivers license it is the very same. But no one would expect a beginners driver to be as good as someone who has been driving for years. So a REC take from a part time beginner trying hard a lesson for many weeks will never ever get the level played by an highly sklilled talanted professinal guitar player (I should have simply said GREAT) like all our instructors are.
So that is just the view from the other side wink.gif

And I would not disrespect the value of an justified praise. It is a great kick in motivation for future challanges too.

Thanks much,
Tom
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Kristofer Dahl
post Jun 9 2015, 03:37 PM
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I pretty much agree with both of you. Positive feedback and encouragement is a key factor to stay motivated, especially in the beginning.

I still think that the grades given need to follow general standards, in order for us not to devaluate the REC program. The grades given need to relate to the level of the lesson and not to the level of the student.

Having said this, I think the things you pointed out must clearly be expressed by the instructor in text. Ie "even though I can't give you passing grade on this third attempt - the amount of progress you have made is very impressive (...)"

Did I get you right?


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Tom51
post Jun 9 2015, 03:45 PM
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Yes, I would sign every word you said!
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Chris S.
post Jun 9 2015, 03:55 PM
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I don't have as much REC experience as everyone else but one thing that I always noticed would be what Phil mentioned:

Where it is said that we have improved but the score remains the same.

Like take one was a 7, and then on take two someone would say "definitely better than the last take" but still given a 7.

Now I wouldn't want to be given an 8 and then pass a lesson I shouldn't have but I do agree that there should maybe be half points or something.

I'd rather be given a 6, that way when I post another take an show improvement I can at least be given a 7 - so although I didn't pass I can at least see that my score went higher.

I guess it's just a motivational thing.


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Phil66
post Jun 9 2015, 04:06 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Jun 9 2015, 03:37 PM) *
I pretty much agree with both of you. Positive feedback and encouragement is a key factor to stay motivated, especially in the beginning.

I still think that the grades given need to follow general standards, in order for us not to devaluate the REC program. The grades given need to relate to the level of the lesson and not to the level of the student.

Having said this, I think the things you pointed out must clearly be expressed by the instructor in text. Ie "even though I can't give you passing grade on this third attempt - the amount of progress you have made is very impressive (...)"

Did I get you right?



Yes I agree completely. It just needs to be remembered, and I don't mean to be disrespectful or patronizing, that a student learning a level 3 lesson is never going to execute the lesson as good as the instructor.

Hey maybe that would be good, once a student has reached a level above 3, they have to select a previous REC and re play it to see how much they have improved and get re accessed.

Cheers

This post has been edited by Phil66: Jun 9 2015, 07:59 PM


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Gabriel Leopardi
post Jun 9 2015, 04:10 PM
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QUOTE (Chris S. @ Jun 9 2015, 11:55 AM) *
I don't have as much REC experience as everyone else but one thing that I always noticed would be what Phil mentioned:

Where it is said that we have improved but the score remains the same.

Like take one was a 7, and then on take two someone would say "definitely better than the last take" but still given a 7.

Now I wouldn't want to be given an 8 and then pass a lesson I shouldn't have but I do agree that there should maybe be half points or something.

I'd rather be given a 6, that way when I post another take an show improvement I can at least be given a 7 - so although I didn't pass I can at least see that my score went higher.

I guess it's just a motivational thing.


Exactly! and this is another reason why we need to tweak the grading. With the new standard we will use more the lower numbers and 7 will be given only when we feel that you are a very little step to pass. So in your example, you would get a 4/5, then a 6 and finally a 7 when you are just very close to pass.

The adjustment is because we need to be more strict to make the program valuable and also become we need more headroom to make the grading clearer more useful and reasonable.


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Chris S.
post Jun 9 2015, 04:23 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jun 9 2015, 03:10 PM) *
Exactly! and this is another reason why we need to tweak the grading. With the new standard we will use more the lower numbers and 7 will be given only when we feel that you are a very little step to pass. So in your example, you would get a 4/5, then a 6 and finally a 7 when you are just very close to pass.

The adjustment is because we need to be more strict to make the program valuable and also become we need more headroom to make the grading clearer more useful and reasonable.

Exactly biggrin.gif

like a 5/10 doesn't mean that the take was garbage or anything, it's just giving room for improvement!

And the ability to pay off instructors to give you a higher score will boost revenue for GMC!

Hahaha totally kidding tongue.gif


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Monica Gheorghev...
post Jun 9 2015, 06:06 PM
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I'm happy to read this announcement smile.gif From my point of view if we compare our takes with the original takes made by instructors I don't think that anybody deserve to get 10. Nobody can't play identically as an instructor because then we would not be students wink.gif

I have a question because I'm very curious. How will be graded this time a lesson which is played with all the details from original lesson made by instructor?
I will be honest and I will say that I care about what grade I get in the same way how I pay attention to learn and play every tiny detail from a lesson. In my mentoring, until to post my take in REC, if I forget/skip to play a detail from a lesson it means to remake again the take.
Don't get me wrong, if I make mistakes it's not a problem if I will get a low grade. My goal is just to make the things how perfectly I can, to pass all the lessons and start to learn new things smile.gif

This post has been edited by Monica Gheorghevici: Jun 9 2015, 06:09 PM
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Daeron
post Jun 9 2015, 07:02 PM
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QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jun 9 2015, 03:10 PM) *
Exactly! and this is another reason why we need to tweak the grading. With the new standard we will use more the lower numbers and 7 will be given only when we feel that you are a very little step to pass. So in your example, you would get a 4/5, then a 6 and finally a 7 when you are just very close to pass.

The adjustment is because we need to be more strict to make the program valuable and also become we need more headroom to make the grading clearer more useful and reasonable.


That is a good idea. I was sometimes wondering why instructors always used 7 to tell that the rec isn't good and 8 or more if it succeeded.
I understand why... it's difficult to be strict and it seems unfriendly. But we are here to make progress ! For me, the most important is your comments that are really helpful !

If one of my next RECs is bad, I hope that you'll use a 3,4 or 5. I'm sure that the comments will help more than the notes.

But I have a question. I think that you don't have the same way to grade if the lesson is of difficulty 1,2,3,4,... isn't it ? And when a beginner intents a lesson of diffulty 3 and another one more experienced intents the same lesson ? Is there a difference or you judge only on the lesson's difficulty ?
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Darius Wave
post Jun 9 2015, 08:44 PM
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I was trying to write a post but...I would be too long smile.gif I hope my not enough descent english will not make things to be misunderstood smile.gif



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Kristofer Dahl
post Jun 9 2015, 08:59 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jun 9 2015, 05:06 PM) *
a student learning a level 3 lesson is never going to execute the lesson as good as the instructor.


Who told you this? ohmy.gif

In the short run (read weeks) you are right, but if we are speaking about months of serious practice it is doable.

Either way by giving the student a high grade after just a couple of weeks before you are close to nailing the take, instructors would be sending out the wrong message. They would in fact be confirming what you just said - ie 'you'll never get this down anyway'.

Hopefully you will forgive me if I sound a little harsh here, I am doing my best to get my point through cool.gif

QUOTE (Monica Gheorghevici @ Jun 9 2015, 07:06 PM) *
I have a question because I'm very curious. How will be graded this time a lesson which is played with all the details from original lesson made by instructor?


I think it should be a 10/10. In fact I don't even think all details must be down for that grade - as you said it's almost impossible (for pro players as well).

But the important stuff that affects the 'musical enjoyability' of the take must be there.

QUOTE (Gabriel Leopardi @ Jun 9 2015, 05:10 PM) *
Exactly! and this is another reason why we need to tweak the grading. With the new standard we will use more the lower numbers and 7 will be given only when we feel that you are a very little step to pass. So in your example, you would get a 4/5, then a 6 and finally a 7 when you are just very close to pass.

The adjustment is because we need to be more strict to make the program valuable and also become we need more headroom to make the grading clearer more useful and reasonable.


Exactly, this makes perfect sense to me!


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Chris S.
post Jun 9 2015, 09:01 PM
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Many wise words, Darius! biggrin.gif

I think you make some excellent points - especially the part of moving on to something else and coming back to it later - I feel like we've all done this whether with lessons or songs, and we are often surprised at how much improvement has been made just by taking some time away from it.


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Phil66
post Jun 9 2015, 09:07 PM
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Thank you Darius,

That was a brilliant video. I actually found it very inspiring (even though I missed 12:03 of my timing practise mad.gif laugh.gif ).

Personally I have always thought that a fail is a 7 but could mean a "hidden" 4, and I always though that it was done for the "feel good factor" for the student

I would rather get a 1, then a month later a 2, then a 3 etc, for me this would be much better than getting a 7 for 7 months then getting an 8. It wouldn't feel like banging my head against a wall and thinking "what do I have to do to get that one extra point??????" blink.gif wacko.gif It would, in my opinion, be more encouraging than persistent 7s smile.gif

Much much better and thank you for taking the time to give such an eloquent explanation.

Cheers buddy smile.gif

This post has been edited by Phil66: Jun 9 2015, 09:08 PM


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Kristofer Dahl
post Jun 9 2015, 09:07 PM
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QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Jun 9 2015, 09:44 PM) *
I was trying to write a post but...I would be too long smile.gif I hope my not enough descent english will not make things to be misunderstood smile.gif



Excellent points here!

I def agree with the fact that because we are a community, it is harder to give a realistic grade. It can feel like insulting your mum. ohmy.gif

And indeed excellent point about returning to an old lesson, that's how its always been for me. I bang my head against the wall and almost bleed to death without succeeding. When I come back to that thing in a couple of months it miraculously works!

It's great we get discuss this thoroughly. I think we can pause grading just for now until we have had a chance to digest and finish this discussion.


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Phil66
post Jun 9 2015, 09:09 PM
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It's nice that you have been willing to discuss this with students. Thank you.

There is another side of the coin too. As a student I don't like to stop a lesson that an instructor has given me, I feel that I am letting them down so I stick at it even if my heart isn't into it just to show that I am serious and don't want to be like an impatient kid. I hope this makes sense. rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by Phil66: Jun 9 2015, 09:12 PM


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Darius Wave
post Jun 9 2015, 09:26 PM
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IT's good to stick to the lesson for how long you can handle. I only meant you have to be prepare to sometimes decide to abandon it if you reach one point and can't go anyfurther no matter how much you practice smile.gif


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Phil66
post Jun 9 2015, 09:38 PM
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I agree but sometimes it can be demoralising and if the music in the lesson isn't really your cup of tea it makes it harder to persist. I had it recently with Gab's Fu Manchu lesson. I just couldn't get past a certain bar and I actually found myself regressing. I felt awful asking Gab if I could try something else sad.gif

Thanks again.


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Darius Wave
post Jun 9 2015, 09:40 PM
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Gab is a very wise person smile.gif I do think he would complain on this - it's only about the arguments you point when trying to leave the lesson. Even if You won't finish it, it's sure something from it will profit in your playing smile.gif Ask Monica wink.gif


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