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Phil66
post Jun 12 2015, 01:00 PM
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QUOTE (Marek Rojewski @ Jun 12 2015, 12:35 PM) *
Hello everyone after another long break of mine!

As a "veteran" of GMC I remember the old REC grading system, and would like to share my thoughts...

I didn't like the old system because:

I feel that learning how to play the lesson is many times more valuable and difficult than being or not being relaxed, and choosing an appropriate tone or not. Of course good posture is important, and playing stoner rock with a jazz tone makes no sense, but accurately playing the lesson with a satisfactory technique is on a wholly different level of importance IMHO. When the old system worked, the overall level of lessons that passed was lower than it is now, because it was "easy" to get good grades for tone, posture/being relaxed, so it counterbalanced the poorer grades for technique:/ I remember that the change from the old grading system to a new one, resulted in many lessons that didn't pass, and students soon started to present a higher level of preparation before posting a take.

I don't know what is the best solution, also because it depends on the people involved. For example I always feel down when I don't pass, and I don't think that it gives any additional motivation to me. Maybe because I practice one lesson for too long so when I post a REC take I "hope" to move on to new stuff to practice, but when I fail I am "sentenced" to additional practice of a lesson I am already too familiar with.

What would be ideal for me is as much constructive criticism as possible in REC comments, also with maybe links to lessons that could help with overcoming my problems, but with quite a "friendly" grading system. For me "winning" a REC take is motivating to practice another lesson and aim to "win" again, while "losing" strengthens my REC anxiety and depressive thinking dry.gif

After all no matter what the grades are, it is all left to the student to use the constructive criticism he received, and it is connected with his personality, that we don't have an influence on.


With a more strict grading, maybe the passmark of 7.5 should be reconsidered? Like in school 51% most of the time is a pass. So while the student gets not so great grades, like 5.5 or 6.0, and those grades are telling the student that he still has much place for improvement, it still is a positive grade, not a "negative" grade that basically means - the take didn't pass, you failed to pass.


Maybe we could also consider opening the REC forum to everyone, and instead of voting, admin would have to read the instructor comments to check what grade they give (so they would have to write it in a post instead of the current way of grading). That way more people could comment and contribute.


Very interesting. Maybe there should be a grading system rather than pass or fail. D pass = 5 points, C = 6, B = 7, A = 8 A+ =9, A* =10. It could be said that you can move on to another lesson with a pass BUT not recommended until you get a B. I put the A at 8 because in Darius's video he said 8 is very very good, 9 and 10 are very special.

Is all food for thought for the admin

Cheers

Phil


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Tom51
post Jun 12 2015, 03:31 PM
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fully agree with you Marek and Phil. After you have been working at a lesson at your level (!) for a long time (!) it is very frustrating if you do not pass and will not add any motivation. At least not in my case.

E.g. I have been working on 5 string barre chord lesson for 2 month by next weekend. I thing I can record a decent take now but I do not know if that will pass under the new requirements. So I will NOT post it at REC. The feedback for me as a beginner that worked hard 30min/day over 2 month on an adequate lesson (level2) and cannot get it done would be devastating.
It would tell me there is something VERY wrong, either with the lesson, my learning process or me. And I would think its me as the lesson and my mentoring are great.

Also the expectation " to be as good as the instructor" that was shown here in the thread is not understandable for me.
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yoncopin
post Jun 12 2015, 03:39 PM
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I really like the REC program, it's one of my favorite parts of GMC. I've submitted takes which, after reading the instructor's feedback, shouldn't have passed. When I submitted them I may have thought they were great (as Darius said), but it took someone with more experience to show me the details I missed. I can only speak for myself, but my feelings would not be hurt to hear constructive and supportive feedback despite a failing grade.

The only issue I see with that is that there is vibrato in virtually every lesson, and as Darius said, it takes a LONG time to develop. Will the result be that beginner/intermediate players will never be able to achieve a passing grade because of underdeveloped vibrato?

I've mostly used the REC system as a milestone to help me decide when to "move on". A take may have issues, but when I've mastered it to the point that I should work on material that is more challenging overall. It doesn't seem productive to continue with a lesson which has just one sticking point when I can approach fresh material which has multiple areas to improve. I've struggled with recognizing that moment in the past, but I'm not sure what the answer is because I'm here to learn HOW to learn the guitar as much as a specific technique, etc...

I'd also find it really valuable for future lessons to have a bit more detail about the tones used. For example, a gear list isn't really that useful. I use amp modelling so for me amp head, cabinet, mic placement, EQ settings, and effects chain would be very useful. It would help me develop my ear for tones if I could match what I'm listening to with at least a brief description.


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Kristofer Dahl
post Jun 12 2015, 11:03 PM
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QUOTE (Marek Rojewski @ Jun 12 2015, 01:35 PM) *
Hello everyone after another long break of mine!

As a "veteran" of GMC I remember the old REC grading system, and would like to share my thoughts...

I didn't like the old system because:

I feel that learning how to play the lesson is many times more valuable and difficult than being or not being relaxed, and choosing an appropriate tone or not. Of course good posture is important, and playing stoner rock with a jazz tone makes no sense, but accurately playing the lesson with a satisfactory technique is on a wholly different level of importance IMHO. When the old system worked, the overall level of lessons that passed was lower than it is now, because it was "easy" to get good grades for tone, posture/being relaxed, so it counterbalanced the poorer grades for technique:/ I remember that the change from the old grading system to a new one, resulted in many lessons that didn't pass, and students soon started to present a higher level of preparation before posting a take.

I don't know what is the best solution, also because it depends on the people involved. For example I always feel down when I don't pass, and I don't think that it gives any additional motivation to me. Maybe because I practice one lesson for too long so when I post a REC take I "hope" to move on to new stuff to practice, but when I fail I am "sentenced" to additional practice of a lesson I am already too familiar with.

What would be ideal for me is as much constructive criticism as possible in REC comments, also with maybe links to lessons that could help with overcoming my problems, but with quite a "friendly" grading system. For me "winning" a REC take is motivating to practice another lesson and aim to "win" again, while "losing" strengthens my REC anxiety and depressive thinking dry.gif

After all no matter what the grades are, it is all left to the student to use the constructive criticism he received, and it is connected with his personality, that we don't have an influence on.


With a more strict grading, maybe the passmark of 7.5 should be reconsidered? Like in school 51% most of the time is a pass. So while the student gets not so great grades, like 5.5 or 6.0, and those grades are telling the student that he still has much place for improvement, it still is a positive grade, not a "negative" grade that basically means - the take didn't pass, you failed to pass.


Maybe we could also consider opening the REC forum to everyone, and instead of voting, admin would have to read the instructor comments to check what grade they give (so they would have to write it in a post instead of the current way of grading). That way more people could comment and contribute.


Marek this is excellent feedback, some key points here are:

* failing grades don't encourage

* Building a list of passing REC takes does encourage

After all the goal is both to guide/help you towards a great take, but also to help you remain inspired every day (that's the only way to spend a lot of time with the instrument).

What do other think about this?


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Phil66
post Jun 12 2015, 11:06 PM
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QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Jun 12 2015, 11:03 PM) *
Marek this is excellent feedback, some key points here are:

* failing grades don't encourage

* Building a list of passing lessons does encourage

After all the goal is both to guide/help you towards a great take, but also to help you remain inspired every day (that's the only way to spend a lot of time with the instrument).

What do other think about this?


https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...st&p=713125

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Kristofer Dahl
post Jun 12 2015, 11:17 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jun 13 2015, 12:06 AM) *


Yes that is good feedback. One option is also to somehow reflect the grade level (D,C,B etc) in the badge level. Although I don't think complicating things is a good idea (and the badge level system seems to be working pretty well).

The more opinions we get, the easier it is to actually make an informed change! After all, it's been a long time since instructors were beginners. Lowering the passmark level sounds cool to me - but it would be cool to hear what others think.


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Phil66
post Jun 12 2015, 11:23 PM
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Lowering the pass grade is good but it needs to be a low level pass imho. As long as it is a pass at a low level it will be still motivational to the student, rather than a consistent 7

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Edit:

Don't know what I meant here. To much beer and wine when I posted this wacko.gif laugh.gif

This post has been edited by Phil66: Jun 14 2015, 05:59 PM


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Kristofer Dahl
post Jun 12 2015, 11:31 PM
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QUOTE (yoncopin @ Jun 12 2015, 04:39 PM) *
I really like the REC program, it's one of my favorite parts of GMC. I've submitted takes which, after reading the instructor's feedback, shouldn't have passed. When I submitted them I may have thought they were great (as Darius said), but it took someone with more experience to show me the details I missed. I can only speak for myself, but my feelings would not be hurt to hear constructive and supportive feedback despite a failing grade.


Ok that's interesting - that's probably how I function as well. But something tells me it's not the case for a majority of people. The word "fail" has a negative vibe which is hard to ignore.

QUOTE (Tom51 @ Jun 12 2015, 04:31 PM) *
fully agree with you Marek and Phil. After you have been working at a lesson at your level (!) for a long time (!) it is very frustrating if you do not pass and will not add any motivation. At least not in my case.

E.g. I have been working on 5 string barre chord lesson for 2 month by next weekend. I thing I can record a decent take now but I do not know if that will pass under the new requirements. So I will NOT post it at REC. The feedback for me as a beginner that worked hard 30min/day over 2 month on an adequate lesson (level2) and cannot get it done would be devastating.
It would tell me there is something VERY wrong, either with the lesson, my learning process or me. And I would think its me as the lesson and my mentoring are great.


OK this is very good feedback, thanks.

We certainly don't want the passmark level to prevent you from submitting a REC and getting feedback. Because we all know that you will progress faster if you do get feedback.

So if this is the case for many people, there is a flaw in REC that needs fixing.


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bleez
post Jun 13 2015, 01:07 AM
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Its quite a complicated subject when you start breaking it down! probably impossible to get a perfect set of rules.
I dont think it should be too easy to get a passing grade though. It would kinda devalue the process.
I totally appreciate the motivation that a pass will give but I wouldnt like to get a 'pass' if it was just to keep me motivated.
you dont HAVE to submit a rec take to get feedback on a lesson. Im sure any instructor would check out a take and give you a 'mock' rec take evaluation if you asked.

Its tough putting a number on it. Its probably most common ( from what Ive seen ) that we have a 7 for a fail and an 8 or 9 for a pass. We essentially use just a few numbers for grades. Maybe its worth simply having a pass or fail, maybe a 'distinction' type of pass for a really nailed lesson. The comments from the instructors are of more value than the grade.

The subject of tones is an interesting one as well. If you are being judged on the ability to mimic the instructors tone then that is quite a task. Most lessons dont really go into any depth about how to achieve the tone and tbh I dont even know if it would be possible to do anyway. I done the Peter Green lesson a while back, there's no way Im dialling in a tone like Stehane gets, I just dont have the touch, gear or knowledge but it was pointed out in the rec comments that although I didnt match the tone I managed to get a decent sound that fitted with the backing and the overall style.... I think that type of approach is good. It cuts you a little slack without allowing for unsuitable overall tones.

For the record, Tom, I think you are being too hard on yourself. 2 months IMO isnt long at all. Ive taken way longer to get a lesson to rec level.... like WAY longer! Dont sweat on that one mate smile.gif


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Chris S.
post Jun 14 2015, 12:47 AM
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I think bleez made a great point - instead of putting a number on it, maybe it should just be as simple as pass or fail (maybe a better word than fail?).

If you didn't make the cut, a clear explanation of what needs to be improved in order to pass.

Everyone seems to be all over the place on this, it will be interesting to see the end result tongue.gif

EDIT:

Because putting a number or letter on a take can be difficult - and you may end up giving someone a 5 for a specific reason, yet another person a 4.

I think a simple pass or fail takes most of the inconsistency away.

This post has been edited by Chris S.: Jun 14 2015, 12:50 AM


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Phil66
post Jun 14 2015, 06:05 PM
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The thing with just a pass or fail is that you don't see your progress, you can't see yourself getting closer. If the instructors are going to start using 1 2 3 4 etc I will definitely post rec takes more often purely for assessment and opinions of other instructors as well as Gab. I think that getting a 1 is fine, you can strive for a 2 within a few weeks and I actually think having more smaller achievements will, for me anyway, be more including and encouraging smile.gif


This post has been edited by Phil66: Jun 14 2015, 06:06 PM


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bleez
post Jun 14 2015, 06:55 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jun 14 2015, 06:05 PM) *
The thing with just a pass or fail is that you don't see your progress, you can't see yourself getting closer. If the instructors are going to start using 1 2 3 4 etc I will definitely post rec takes more often purely for assessment and opinions of other instructors as well as Gab. I think that getting a 1 is fine, you can strive for a 2 within a few weeks and I actually think having more smaller achievements will, for me anyway, be more including and encouraging smile.gif

I do see your point, phil. My own feeling towards the numbers are that they are arbitrary. what would the difference between grade 2 and grade 3 really be? not very much I wouldnt have thought. All the instructor feedback from the previous attempt would be repeated. If I scored a 3, I wouldnt really be looking for a 4 on my next attempt. I dont think its worth doing 10 rec takes of a single lesson. Its not something I would do but thats just me.
I failed one of my recent takes but I have enough feedback to know exactly where I screwed it up, Im not going to submit another take until I feel Ive addressed all those areas.
Is it worth putting a number on your failure cool.gif I' feel a bit down when I fail a rec take but will I feel worse knowing I failed with a 3!

But then again, what is the actual purpose of the REC? if its to chart progress through a lesson then maybe all the grades will be best. Ive always thought of it much the same as yoncopin mentioned, more of a milestone to prove to myself that I have learned a lesson to a good level and I can move on.






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Phil66
post Jun 14 2015, 07:03 PM
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I can see your point too Scott. The thing is we can both use it how we want. You can submit a take when you think it's ready to pass, or when your mentor thinks it is, you will then probably get at least a 7, I can submit a take when I have it under my fingers at full tempo even though I know it might only get a 3 so that I can get advice on how to improve from more than one source. Some instructors spot things others miss or, have a different take on what to do to improve smile.gif

This post has been edited by Phil66: Jun 14 2015, 10:30 PM


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post Jun 15 2015, 04:35 PM
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I don't believe there is a correct or incorrect time to post a REC take, just use REc as you see fit.

Then again if you post a take that you suspect is not really good, maybe be realistic and expect to fail and get some nice input from the instructors to play it better.

These years 7.5 has been the pass grade because less than 5 was considered "too many mistakes", and 5-7.5 was getting there but not enough to consider it played well enough. Then from 7.5-10 the lesson take was good enough, and the higher the better, of course smile.gif

This post has been edited by Fran: Jun 15 2015, 04:36 PM


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post Jun 17 2015, 04:20 PM
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From my point of view, the grade is just a reference to monitor your progress. The most important thing of REC is the feedback that you receive from different instructors so even when you know it won't pass it's very recommendable to share it there and receive the necessary feedback to know how to continue, which things you are doing right or wrong.

It's true that you can also open a new thread to receive feedback, but REC is more organized, and you are totally sure that will receive different points of views and the grade to check how much room to improvements is and also to check the progress.

This new adjustment helps us to make a better use of the 1 to 10 grades, to let you monitor your progress even clearer.




I don't think that a student should feel frustrated of getting a 2, then a 3, then a 4... this means progress! smile.gif

However if you get, 3, then another 3, then another 3. Something must be wrong with your practice, and you definitely need to contact us. The same is applicable to other grades, if you keep on the same grade and it's low, you must be doing something wrong, or misunderstanding the feedback.





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post Jun 17 2015, 07:18 PM
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Marek - At this moment we all try to "recalibarte" to a new grading system. I my honest opinion You've been slightly hurted with latest grades comparing to the work You did. Tone suggestion was just a suggestion (Yes I know You meant my feedback on your take). Tone suggestion did not affect the grade that much. There is a huge difference bettwen some obvious tone mistakes - hum, over fx-ed, way too much gain for the lesson type etc. Some of those aspects take away essential purpose of the lesson like...How to learn to hit like a hulk to get your guitar scream on the crunch tone. Using hi-gain we loose the basic idea of being at "I have to hit hard" to make it sound proper. In Your case tone type was matched properly. My suggestion was only on slightly different balance between the frequencies, so it would be clearer in the mix and have less of "trash frequencies" (the ones that doesn bring anything constructive to the tone and take awas some space of other instruments in the mix)

Bleez - noby said about sounding exactly like instructor. There is no purpose in this. IT's only about the basic tone issues mentioned in response to Marek (above)


When speaking of grading system chnages we (instructors) already new the challenge of those of You who wants to be judged the "rough way" and those who need pass to stay motivaed to further practice. Unfortunately it will always bee the wasy that one of those sides will be not completely satisfied. Od course we'll be calibarint that system (that's the purpose of thise topic) but like some of You already noticed - it's almost impossible to figure out something quite satisfying for everyone.


Anyway a lot of You make a great job here. I think there would be nothing wrong to ask instructors in PM about some doubts onb rec grading of particular take.


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Marek Rojewski
post Jun 17 2015, 07:28 PM
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Darius, my post is one day older than the feedback that I recieved from instructors, so I wrote it before! wink.gif The tone comment was connected with the older system of grading on GMC. Check for example this take of mine posted 6 years ago (holy crap so long ago...)

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...showtopic=28019

There was "sound" and "posture" that affected the overall grade in a big way, and in consequence a medicore take could pass, because of nice tone/posture.

EDIT: concerning my latest REC uploads, yes I hoped for a bit higher grades, and feel a bit down about getting 7.3 -> not passing by such a small margin. But on the other hand I wasn't too happy with these takes myself, so it's not that big of a deal. I hope to "amaze" all of you in the following week, with a take of a different lesson cool.gif

This post has been edited by Marek Rojewski: Jun 17 2015, 07:32 PM


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Darius Wave
post Jun 17 2015, 07:54 PM
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Got it! smile.gif Thanx for the clearance smile.gif I didn't suspect You're going that far to the past of REC smile.gif


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Fran
post Jun 18 2015, 06:06 PM
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Please admins & instructors, let me know when I can re-start closing and wiki-ing those REC takes, as you know I'm always keping an eye on the REC board smile.gif


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Fran
post Jun 20 2015, 11:07 AM
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BumP! smile.gif

Keep those RECs coming!


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