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> Hone My Tone Please.
Phil66
post Oct 11 2015, 08:39 PM
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Hello everyone, I'm a little bit stuck. I made THIS piece using a plugin that I know longer have. Well I have it but it only works with the hardware that I am selling.
I want to develop this track and I really like the almost woodwind sound of it but I can't get it now sad.gif

Below are the settings that the software had for the sound of the melody.


Below is a Soundcloud of the closest I can get and then below that are the new settings in the new software. It's still Boss but has more options. It would be great if someone could point me in the right direction.

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/new-1

Pre-amp settings:



FX settings:


Reverb settings:
http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r394/Ph...zpsrot6yuqy.jpg

Chorus settings:


EQ settings:



Delay settings:


Cheers and thanks for taking the time to read this message. smile.gif

Phil


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Todd Simpson
post Oct 12 2015, 01:45 AM
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Sounds pretty similar and works for me smile.gif What don't you like about it?


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Darius Wave
post Oct 12 2015, 07:26 AM
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Hey Phil! I will get you later today with more details but that is my first impression after first playback.

The concept of space and atmosphere is cool - using chorus and delay helped to create it for sure but there is something that could be done to increase clarity of both - rhythm and melody guitars. Solo guitar has a little too much low end (it covers part of the spectrum from rhythm guitar). Rhythm guitar has a bit too much of low midrange - it might sound totaly different on your speakers but the problem is there - believe me.

I can help if You want - just send me both track mixed with effects (separated rhythm guitar stereo mixdown and separated solo guitar). I can add some tweaks and post what exactly have I done to it, so you could try to add it in your DAW session and see if it works for you smile.gif


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Phil66
post Oct 12 2015, 12:56 PM
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Thank you gentlemen.
I don't have the original as a separate rhythm and solo. It's from the days when I was getting used to recording.
I can sort the rhythm track as it was fairly clean with chorus.
What I don't like about the new sound is its lack of breath, the original has an almost woodwind sound to it at the start of each note of you know what I mean. All I did was use a preset from the original software and remove the overdrive.
The guitar was a PRS 7 string.
I have some Tannoy Reveal 402 now and can hear more and agree about the low register. I know they aren't reference standard monitors but better than the gaming speakers I had when I first did this track.
I still have the hardware (it's on eBay at the moment) so I could record a few notes with that original patch and some more with the new patch and dry.
I wanted to re record it much longer for my mom. She has trouble sleeping and relaxing and, if you read in the thread, one of our members used that piece to relax after work so I thought a longer version might help my mom.
Cheers
Phil

This post has been edited by Phil66: Oct 12 2015, 01:03 PM


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Darius Wave
post Oct 12 2015, 05:56 PM
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I suppose you could search for the reason of this difference in.....


...in....



...in the GUITAR CABINET SIMULATION!

Your old sample sound like totaly raw "line in" guitar tone, just like "Nothing else matters" recording. If You want your guitar sound THAT much bright and open you should simply try to turn off all cabinet simulation section or amp simulation section in your effect, plug-in or whatever you plan to use. That's the basic difference.

Line in tones suck at distortion (no cab sim tones - do not compare to line in axe fx or 11r or similar!), but with clean tones sometimes the become useful for particular purpose.


You might also want to try to search for any Fender related amp simualtion. Fender is one of the widest (topo end wise) sounding amps out there and if you still want to have your guitar very bright, yet to keep the feeling it's playing through an amp, then give a try to Fender sim.

You can find it under names like
1. Blacface
2. Tweed
3. California clean
4. Bluesman

and similar.
There's a quite good Fender simulation in "Guitar Suite" pack. It a "plug and play" kind of seem. Already has a cab simulation loaded so you basicly just setup the eq don't have to mess with any additional plug-ins to make it work fine.


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Phil66
post Oct 12 2015, 08:10 PM
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Thanks for your help guys,

I've recorded a scale on old equipment and new equipment including a "dry" signal on the new equipment and put them below as .wav files.
Maybe this will be a better way of hearing the differences. I recorded the scale using long notes and shorter notes in each case.
Thanks for your time looking at this for me, I really appreciate it smile.gif

Original equipment/patch.
[attachment=43153:Original.wav]

New equipment/patch.
[attachment=43154:New.wav]

Dry on new equipment.
Attached File  Dry.wav ( 9.04MB ) Number of downloads: 23


Both patches were created in Boss software and both pieces of hardware have a COSM chip in them. The new one is the desktop version of the Boss GT-100 called the GT-001. The old one was just some software and chip based on the ME floor multi effects.

I really hope you can point me in the right direction. It's not so much the tonal quality but the way each note fades in on the original, almost like a volume swell.

Cheers and thank you again.

Phil


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Darius Wave
post Oct 14 2015, 09:53 PM
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I made a comparison and there are a few things you could do. Good news is that the tools you've used for original tone are not so rare and still in use for modern devices.

Main difference is - chorus rate. New tone chorus rate is way too high comparing to previous one. It sound almost liek tremolo effect rather than the chorus. It could be the cause of "less sustain" feeling. Try to set chorus rate and depth to a 50% it's usually most common setting.

Delay - old boss deices had quite good analog delay section. It was giving some additional surround effect while not being just a precise reapeat of what you've played. Try to set up your delay for around 30-50% mix and 500 ms delay time. You need to try out feddback parameter and match it the way you like for particular part being played.


I have owned old Boss ME-5 for years. As far as I know it was a first multi-fx made by boss. Distortion section was weak but anything else from compression through mod to echo section was perfect for me. Still miss boss chorus. G-major I use those days ain't even close to it in case of chorus quality.


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Phil66
post Oct 14 2015, 10:13 PM
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QUOTE (Darius Wave @ Oct 14 2015, 09:53 PM) *
I made a comparison and there are a few things you could do. Good news is that the tools you've used for original tone are not so rare and still in use for modern devices.

Main difference is - chorus rate. New tone chorus rate is way too high comparing to previous one. It sound almost liek tremolo effect rather than the chorus. It could be the cause of "less sustain" feeling. Try to set chorus rate and depth to a 50% it's usually most common setting.

Delay - old boss deices had quite good analog delay section. It was giving some additional surround effect while not being just a precise reapeat of what you've played. Try to set up your delay for around 30-50% mix and 500 ms delay time. You need to try out feddback parameter and match it the way you like for particular part being played.


I have owned old Boss ME-5 for years. As far as I know it was a first multi-fx made by boss. Distortion section was weak but anything else from compression through mod to echo section was perfect for me. Still miss boss chorus. G-major I use those days ain't even close to it in case of chorus quality.


Thanks Darius,

I really appreciate your help. I'll try those settings tomorrow and make a recording of the scale again.

Cheers buddy


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Phil66
post Oct 15 2015, 09:07 PM
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Ok, it's getting closer all the time, thanks for your guidance Darius smile.gif . It still isn't quite as "breathy" at the start of each note as the original, the original had qualities like a bassoon being played on the lower notes, this is the closest thing I can use to describe it. It just recorded this totally improvised just to get a feel for the sound. The changes are below the sound cloud.

Thank you again for your help mate, it really is appreciated.

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/moms-relaxation







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Darius Wave
post Oct 16 2015, 11:24 AM
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You might want to include compression. Set the ratio to 4:1 or more. Set the attack to very fast. Treshold level has to be set up individually - can't tell the value remotely smile.gif Compression will flaten the attack of the pick and will make it more even through all the time of note ringing. Maybe that's the ide to make it sound closer to "volume swell" feeling


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Phil66
post Oct 16 2015, 11:34 AM
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Thanks Darius.
That's the term, "volume swell". I'll give that a go later on.
There is so much to this fx setting. Maybe we could have a workshop a month dedicated to each of the most popular effects and their most common functions and then how to utilise them together.
I've never understood compressors and limiters so this should help me understand a little more.
I didn't want to put this into your "Hone Your Tone" thread as I didn't think it was general enough, too specific I thought, but, maybe it would have been good in there because I have learnt quite a bit about how the effects interact.
Thanks buddy smile.gif

Update,

Ok I've had another go tonight. Trouble is I only have sustain, attack, tone and level on my compressors. I have selected the "fat" compressor with all pots sets to 50 except tone which is at 0. I also have Boss Comp, Hi Band, Lite, D-Comp, Orange, Mild and Stereo but the "fat" sounded the best to my ears. I've also adjusted the chorus a little. The original sounds to have a kind of "shimmer" to it that I can't get on this new software at the moment. It sounds kind of flat and a little lifeless to me.

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/moms-relaxation-ii

Cheers Darius.

This post has been edited by Phil66: Oct 16 2015, 09:08 PM


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Darius Wave
post Oct 19 2015, 09:35 PM
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Even though all those effects have common names, there is a reason for us having our favorite ones smile.gif At least we try to figure out something...but there is a risk we won't get exactly the same tone as a reference. Usually it's better to find some profits of having new tool and thinking of "I have some new possibilities now" rather than..."how to make it sound like the previous one smile.gif

Most of my playing "beginner yeras" I didn't bother to dig into compression limiters etc...those where "the ones that does not chanage that much" smile.gif It's probably just the way things are when we strat our tone adventure smile.gif The is the period of using too much fx or too high values of some parameters ...it's like "I know it should be something could, I know what it does in theory so I\ll keep it turend on " smile.gif Then...as a final perdio we have "I know what I use, why I use and how do i Use it" smile.gif

Compressors for guitars are sort of "stripped of" in case of available settings. Some are just combined "2 in 1 knob" or some are simply not available to not make things too twisted. Sustain is sort of ratio control. The more you push it up, the more smashed (pomped out) tone will be. It will decrease the volume difference between attack moment and sustain of the note. Also...the more "sustain" you add, the longer compressor will "pull out" note volume while it's ringing out. Basicly it flatens the volume. But...there is nothing for free. With the silent sustain of note it will bring back the noise as well.


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Phil66
post Oct 19 2015, 10:01 PM
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Thanks Darius.
I feel I am really close with that last take. At 0:22 you can had the pick attack the string and the whole thing needs some more life, maybe a touch more chorus??
I think it I hadn't done the original I might be happy with this smile.gif
Cheers


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