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> New Line6 Vs Kemper
Todd Simpson
post Jan 2 2016, 09:45 PM
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Kemper seems to pretty much kill it. The dist on the line 6 still sounds a bit digital.



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Rammikin
post Jan 3 2016, 12:09 AM
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I've played them side by side, and I agree with you...the Kemper does sound better to me than the Helix. Personally, I still prefer the AxeFX though since the amp models are more detailed than the Kemper.

I will say this though: we're now at the point where these latest amp modelers/profilers (Helix, Kemper, and AxeFX) are all so good that listening to a youtube video will not help you distinguish between the quality of the amp tones smile.gif. As Paul alluded to in the video, if you like the sound of one vs. the other in a youtube video, that's almost certainly because the presets are tweaked differently, not because of a deficiency in one modeler vs. the other.



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klasaine
post Jan 3 2016, 12:46 AM
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I thought they both sounded fake (bad) on the low gain/cleaner settings.


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Kristofer Dahl
post Jan 4 2016, 12:56 PM
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I am not sure I understood the comparison/test, but I just watched the video briefly.

As mentioned the quality level is now so high (at least for kemper / axe fx) that comparing generic amps is irrelevant.

The only useful test I can think of is to compare with a specific amp, because no two tube amps sound the same and even more importantly moving the mic position just one 1 cm in any direction can change tone more than switching to a completely different pre-amp (!!).

So far the only unit capable of this comparison is Kemper, because neither Fractal nor Line6 have let users listen to the modeled amp (as far as I am aware).

Finally, most people who have done the A/B ing which is possible with Kemper, agree that 99% of the time it is spot on. Bare in mind that even top producers subscribe to this.


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Chris S.
post Jan 5 2016, 12:02 AM
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Anyone want to GoFundMe to get a kemper? tongue.gif


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GeneT95
post Jan 5 2016, 03:19 AM
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Yeah. I have a new generation AxeFX. If you're into getting deep under the hood and tweaking everything and anything along with having a great sound then it may outrun the Kemper. Although, I must admit I haven't looked at the Kemper's specs lately.

The AxeFx is far less set and play, like the Kemper, but you can do some great routing and control. I think if I played live again I'd not really consider using one of my tube amps unless I was playing a specific genre without having to cover a range of sonic territory.

I've used many 'amp simulators' and the tech today, kemper-axefx, is simply way above what's offered by Line6, Boss, or others. Although, I think you can get great recorded sound into your computer with those boxes and the free stuff online. I just found them not up to task of using live, whereas I know the Axefx would work fantastic through my flat response powered speakers with far less work than my tube amp setup was in the past, whether in a tiny room or a much larger house.
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Todd Simpson
post Jan 6 2016, 07:18 AM
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Just liked the kemper better is why I shared smile.gif Been hearing lots about the line 6 but I don't think it sounds as good as the kemper in any shootout I've heard thus far? Then again I don't really think it's in the same league. Axe/Kemper still seem to have the high end covered.

QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Jan 4 2016, 06:56 AM) *
I am not sure I understood the comparison/test, but I just watched the video briefly.

As mentioned the quality level is now so high (at least for kemper / axe fx) that comparing generic amps is irrelevant.

The only useful test I can think of is to compare with a specific amp, because no two tube amps sound the same and even more importantly moving the mic position just one 1 cm in any direction can change tone more than switching to a completely different pre-amp (!!).

So far the only unit capable of this comparison is Kemper, because neither Fractal nor Line6 have let users listen to the modeled amp (as far as I am aware).

Finally, most people who have done the A/B ing which is possible with Kemper, agree that 99% of the time it is spot on. Bare in mind that even top producers subscribe to this.


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Trigger76
post Jan 13 2016, 04:25 PM
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My two cents .... both Helix and Kemper will provide excellent Tonage and couldn't agree more with Rammikin's post.

I always find these piece of gear A v piece of gear B debates interesting these days, especially when discussing recorded tone .... I will concede in my experience "in the room", there is a definite something* that as a player you may miss from a modeller versus a cranked head, but I guess that gap is closing all the time.

I've seen guys with JCM800's and Mesa Recs sound absolutely muck and conversely seen guys with PODs & Boss GT's sound killer. Similarly Gibson v Epiphone, Squire V Fender, etc etc you get the point.

Some people are just clueless when it comes to dialling in a basic broadly acceptable tone, either as a stand alone or within a mix. Other's talk out their ass when ripping the profiler / modellers down outright, don't believe me ? Next time someone trashes them go listen to their recordings on soundcloud or youtube and see how great their tone is, I'm gonna say 8/10 times they won't be blowing you away, and you'll find someone with a modelled tone that absolutely kills it? Personally I think I do ok when it comes to working with software/modellers or with a Marshall head and mic because I make a bit of an effort to get the thing working for me, to my taste, and thats the point really at this, our level, on a learning community web board. With respect to everyone here highly unlikely anyone here will be churning out the next revolutionary tone ala Hendrix, Gilmour etc etc ;-)

Don't get me wrong high end gear definitely makes it easier but if you don't have a clue and don't put effort in you can't expect "great" results. I think when you're into Kemper / Line 6 Helix territory you're basically comparing a Ferrari and a Porsche, if you're an idiot with either you'll end up in a wall, a big expensive mess. If you handle them appropriately you'll be cruising and humming like a bird in no time.

I plan on getting a Helix pretty soon and have access to a Kemper, I'd challenge anyone to a blind test to see if they could distinguish between the 2, or distinguish between the amp and digital counterpart? As has been rightly pointed out a recorded amp will fundamentally sound different every time anyway, also how it's recorded will be slightly different every time, every single time. Its not as if just because you put a mic in front of a high end tube amp its gonna guarantee great results?

My point being that it's about having knowledge and capability, a good ear, and putting effort in with any of this gear. What Kemper and Helix will deliver, to my ear at least ,is really great tone and broadly on a par from what I've heard off you tube and sound cloud. I've heard some phenomenal players get some really great sounds with both because they know what the hell they are doing, dismissing one over another or saying "digital is bad" is pretty silly in my humble opinion ..... particularly with everyone uploading / downloading and consuming all their content digitally in the end anyway.... such irony.... "here's my super vintage gear all compressed to squat on this low bit MP3" hahahah .

Honestly hand on heart, based on what Ive heard recorded on line, I think Helix V Kemper is so marginal that if people were put to the test they couldn't distinguish them reliably.

So, anyone up for that blind challenge then? Maybe an admin here could download some Helix sample's and some kemper samples and see who gets them right? Or if they are feeling adevnturous a Helix / Kemper / Mid'd head sample set?

Respectfully - T

This post has been edited by Trigger76: Jan 13 2016, 04:29 PM
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klasaine
post Jan 13 2016, 06:18 PM
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Great post Trigger76!

I agree in total.
I'm fortunate that I live in Los Angeles so there's lots of guitar shop access to great gear (and way before NAMM too). I never buy a piece of gear because of a vid demo. They are totally unreliable ... even when said gear is demo'd by good players. 1) They're not me and don't play like me and 2) They're not playing 'my' guitar set up my way, with my strings, pick, etc. *Those factors are HUGE! Your pick and your picking hand has more affect on your sound than anything else, end of story.

*A while ago I was doing an acoustic guitar session (steel and nylon string). At the end of the day the producer asked if I'd brought an electric with me because they needed to replace one of the electric parts. I didn't bring one that day (I was told 'all acoustic'). Anyway, the engineer/studio owner had his sons $199.00 Fender Squier and Frontman 15 amp package laying around. The strings were black with corrosion and that amp really is a 'toy' but ... we were able to get a totally workable electric guitar sound happening (for the track) using quality engineering, mic placement and a decent mic pre and compressor. He had a RAT pedal in the studio too but I can't remember if I used it or not.


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yoncopin
post Jan 14 2016, 03:37 PM
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As a bedroom guitarist I've been sold on modellers for a long time. I've been a long time Line 6 user, but mostly because it's been the affordable hardware option. I was very excited about the Helix due to it's price point, and agree with Trigger that the differences are likely to be marginal. I've heard lots of people rave about the Kemper, but it's biggest selling point seems to be the ability to capture your own amps. I have no use for this feature because I don't use real amps and don't want to spend time hunting the web for tones. Add to that the software and UI of the Helix and that seems like the right option for me. I guess my question is, am I missing something about the Kemper that would make it more appealing (since everyone loves it so much, or AxeFX for that matter)?


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klasaine
post Jan 14 2016, 03:49 PM
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No, you're not missing anything. In fact you're already using and are interested in exactly the best product for your particular applications. Few folks are actually that logical when it comes to gear decisions.

I'm a professional guitar player and I don't use a a Kemper or an Axe fx. Why? Because 1) when I do sessions, most of the studios have either a modeler or software that they're comfortable getting sounds with (or they have a ton of amps). 2) 'Live', I use one of my amps and a pedal board. Bottom line - I don't 'need' one.
*The Kemper interests me because I do have a lot of great amplifiers but until Kemper is willing to give me one for 50% off, it ain't gonna happen.


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yoncopin
post Jan 14 2016, 03:58 PM
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Well thank you klasaine smile.gif I have a Pod HD500X now, which I'm pretty happy with. I do lust after a Helix, but I'm not really sure I "need" one. Your opinions on if/when to upgrade, will the difference be significant or marginal? I was glad I upgraded to the HD500X from the X3, but that was a $100 difference, not $1000, and I did it long after the HD500X was released. I'll probably wait a good long while again but am still curious about other's opinions. Bottom line: practicing with what I have is the best way to sound better.

QUOTE (klasaine @ Jan 14 2016, 09:49 AM) *
No, you're not missing anything. In fact you're already using and are interested in exactly the best product for your particular applications. Few folks are actually that logical when it comes to gear decisions.

I'm a professional guitar player and I don't use a a Kemper or an Axe fx. Why? Because 1) when I do sessions, most of the studios have either a modeler or software that they're comfortable getting sounds with (or they have a ton of amps). 2) 'Live', I use one of my amps and a pedal board. Bottom line - I don't 'need' one.
*The Kemper interests me because I do have a lot of great amplifiers but until Kemper is willing to give me one for 50% off, it ain't gonna happen.



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Trigger76
post Jan 14 2016, 04:01 PM
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Have to agree with Klasaine it sounds like the Helix is a good fit for you.

One thing to bear in mind though is that the Kemper head is supported by a pretty big community so even though the Kemper's primary selling point is its ability to model existing amps really well it already has thousands modelled and available to download, so much like Line6 tone cloud you will easily find a modelled rig for almost any reference point. If I was heading in to record my album in Abbey road tomorrow and I had a choice of a Kemper loaded with a load of really top end emulations or working from scratch off the Helix Id probably bat for the Kemper but other than that Id probably go with a line 6 for most other scenarios ... again just a personal preference and ease of use kinda thing.

As is pointed out in the vid the two products are kinda pointed to different users and the Helix is arguably the more mobile/versatile of the two for anyone who plans on gigging & recording in various different environments and set ups.

I hope to have the helix in a couple of weeks or so when it finally arrives in store, when I do I'll pop up a couple of vids and if anyone has any requests for testing any configs/amp models/effects combinations etc I'll do my best to do them to a decent standard.



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klasaine
post Jan 14 2016, 04:42 PM
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QUOTE (yoncopin @ Jan 14 2016, 07:58 AM) *
Bottom line: practicing with what I have is the best way to sound better.


Well, there is that. How novel wink.gif

This post has been edited by klasaine: Jan 14 2016, 04:42 PM


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Kristofer Dahl
post Jan 14 2016, 04:44 PM
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warning biased answer - i have the kemper and I love it! wink.gif

QUOTE (yoncopin @ Jan 14 2016, 03:37 PM) *
As a bedroom guitarist I've been sold on modellers for a long time. I've been a long time Line 6 user, but mostly because it's been the affordable hardware option. I was very excited about the Helix due to it's price point, and agree with Trigger that the differences are likely to be marginal. I've heard lots of people rave about the Kemper, but it's biggest selling point seems to be the ability to capture your own amps. I have no use for this feature because I don't use real amps and don't want to spend time hunting the web for tones. Add to that the software and UI of the Helix and that seems like the right option for me. I guess my question is, am I missing something about the Kemper that would make it more appealing (since everyone loves it so much, or AxeFX for that matter)?


First - no the biggest point with kemper is not that you can profile your own amp (although that rocks) - it's that you have access to 1000s and 1000s of profiles that sound just like the real thing. No other digital amp comes even close to that - you are stuck with the developers opinion of what a good amp sound is. With Kemper you get Michael Wagener's vision of a good sound ( he is one among many other skilled engineers selling/sharing profiles).

Thanks to digital technology, you can then take what you consider the perfect amp sound - and improve it even more. How about adding some more power sag, or maybe hotten the tube bias.

second - do I think you should but it? No! I know your playing and you're doing great, why buy new stuff? Save the money and take a couple of days off to practice even more instead.



QUOTE (klasaine @ Jan 14 2016, 03:49 PM) *
*The Kemper interests me because I do have a lot of great amplifiers but until Kemper is willing to give me one for 50% off, it ain't gonna happen.


You can then buy two wink.gif


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Todd Simpson
post Jan 15 2016, 11:28 AM
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No problem at all smile.gif The new iine 6 is the best one they have ever made IMHO. And this is just one video from one guy. I have ZERO personal experience with either unit so I can't say anything at all in terms of what I think sounds/works better for me as I've never touched either one, I"m an Eleven Rack guy smile.gif


QUOTE (Trigger76 @ Jan 13 2016, 10:25 AM) *
My two cents .... both Helix and Kemper will provide excellent Tonage and couldn't agree more with Rammikin's post.


Well said smile.gif The whole point of the kemper is that it is every amp ever made on tap. You can download any amp online and bam, you have that tone pretty much exact. Even hard to replicate mid gain tones on boutique amps that folks pay $5,000 for.

I can also see why so many touring guys use them. They profile their home rigs, and just take the kemper and bam, they have the tone they know and love on the road.

As a "plugin guy" I really dig the 11 software interface which is similar to the axe so I'd probablly get an axe fx if they ever get really cheap which is not likely smile.gif I"m happy with the 11 rack and the tube preamp I have in the fx loop. smile.gif


QUOTE (Kristofer Dahl @ Jan 14 2016, 10:44 AM) *
warning biased answer - i have the kemper and I love it! wink.gif



First - no the biggest point with kemper is not that you can profile your own amp (although that rocks) - it's that you have access to 1000s and 1000s of profiles that sound just like the real thing. No other digital amp comes even close to that - you are stuck with the developers opinion of what a good amp sound is. With Kemper you get Michael Wagener's vision of a good sound ( he is one among many other skilled engineers selling/sharing profiles).

Thanks to digital technology, you can then take what you consider the perfect amp sound - and improve it even more. How about adding some more power sag, or maybe hotten the tube bias.

second - do I think you should but it? No! I know your playing and you're doing great, why buy new stuff? Save the money and take a couple of days off to practice even more instead.





You can then buy two wink.gif


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PosterBoy
post Jan 20 2016, 06:49 PM
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As with all things like this it does depend on who is dialling in the sounds



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klasaine
post Jan 20 2016, 07:04 PM
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QUOTE (PosterBoy @ Jan 20 2016, 10:49 AM) *
As with all things like this it does depend on who is dialing in the sounds


Ha ha! Yes indeed. He has HUGE control over his tone/sound via his right hand technique. Regardless of what he's playing on or through.

*PT's demos are almost as useless as a 'bad' demo. 95% of guitar players will never sound that good or understand what goes into sounding that good ... and it's not the gear ... at all.

It's a little like buying a paint set, sitting in front of a Raphael and thinking, "well, this is what it can look like".

Everybody has to find their own thing with their own tools.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Jan 20 2016, 07:08 PM


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Todd Simpson
post Jan 21 2016, 02:36 AM
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One of the best quotes I've ver heard smile.gif "like buying paints from Raphael or Davinci". So much comes down to the artist, not the brush or the paint.

QUOTE (klasaine @ Jan 20 2016, 01:04 PM) *
Ha ha! Yes indeed. He has HUGE control over his tone/sound via his right hand technique. Regardless of what he's playing on or through.

*PT's demos are almost as useless as a 'bad' demo. 95% of guitar players will never sound that good or understand what goes into sounding that good ... and it's not the gear ... at all.

It's a little like buying a paint set, sitting in front of a Raphael and thinking, "well, this is what it can look like".

Everybody has to find their own thing with their own tools.


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