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> REC & video edits, What is allowed? Should we change the rules?
Monica Gheorghev...
post Mar 25 2016, 08:39 AM
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I have a question about the REC rules because probably something it changed and I missed the post smile.gif

We can record our REC takes using different camera angles?

I know I put the same question very often and also I wasn't the only student who asked about this thing. Actually if I remember well, the last explanation about the difference between a REC take and a YT take was made somewhere in February in a topic made by Arpeggio.

I agree with the fact that a straight camera angle with both hands visible will give the possibility for instructors to help students to avoid basic and important mistakes.
Also I'm very conscious that using different camera angles will make impossible an objective feedback for posture, precision, relaxation in playing, picking direction, etc. So, this means that will break the rule no.4 which is mentioned at the beginning of main topic.

Seeing that already we have in REC this kind of takes with no reaction from the instructors, should I understand that this rule is no longer valid? I can apply a different video editing look for my next REC take?

I would love to do this from many reasons:
- I want something new for my videos
- classical style of recording video (straight camera angle) it's no longer so enjoyable for viewers. Many people (including me) search for a complete package (great player, tasty guitar tone, high quality of recording video/audio, very creative video which require beside imagination a maximum attention at details)
- I have many ideas and I think is a pity not to develop them

This post has been edited by Monica Gheorghevici: Mar 25 2016, 09:01 AM
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Kristofer Dahl
post Mar 29 2016, 09:42 PM
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Interesting Monica!

I think the main reason to not allow an edited REC video (with angles etc) - is also the reason why we don't allow audio-only submissions: it makes it easier to cut and paste your take.

Of course there are many arguments as to why this should be allowed. You mentioned some, and also many lessons' main videos are done with cuts/edits.

However I guess that in the long run - getting a good REC title won't be worth as much if many people start copy & pasting their takes. It guess it could 'devaluate' the system a bit.

However I would certainly like to hear what others think about this as no rules are really set in stone here.

I will split this into a new topic so we can get some more opinions!


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Chris S.
post Mar 29 2016, 10:59 PM
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I can see both sides here - I think there is at least room for compromise.

I understand that switching from one angle to a completely different angle can promote a sense of "cheating", for lack of a better word, by switching to a better take/angle to hide a mistake.

I feel though that maybe adding a split screen would be okay - have another video playing in the corner or something that focuses on the picking hand, or with a GoPro style setup giving you an angle down the fretboard.

Just my two cents tongue.gif


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Phil66
post Mar 30 2016, 08:17 AM
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Personally, if I was an examiner purely wanting to judge playing I wouldn't want the distraction of multiple angles, I would want to be able to watch the student play from one angle so I could focus 100% on the performance. It's not like multiple angles will get a higher grade.
I also agree that it could encourage "cheating" and I don't for one minute think Monica or any of the current REC stalwarts would cheat but, if the path is there someone will take it some day. We know they are only fooling themselves but it's not right.
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Monica Gheorghev...
post Mar 30 2016, 09:53 AM
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Thank you so much Kris for the answer and topic smile.gif

I thought that everybody will do in this way:
1- Record audio at the same time with the video using a straight angle for the whole lesson
2- Keep that ONE SHOT audio take for the final video (edited video).
3- Record additional camera angles for some parts but edit only the video with cut and paste not audio take.

I never thought that somebody can think to cut and paste the audio take. What will be the reason to do this? To “cheat”? I think the only one who will be “cheated” it's the student himself, which will never be able to play something in a right way or live. “Cheating” bring only a bunch of frustration for a student, not the success. I thought everybody is very conscious about this and we are not in primary school to try to copy things biggrin.gif

If a video with different camera angles will give ideas for "cheating" in audio takes, then I will give up at my main idea because I'm not agree with something like this.
Probably not all the people understand the bad side of making a puzzle from the audio take. For me is the same thing like stealing musical ideas and say that are yours (which should be punished with some days in jail biggrin.gif ).

I agree only with the things which are applied in a mix over an audio take (one shot) which can make the take to "shine" including tricks like: "hide" some noises from the audio take smile.gif

It's not a problem for me if the REC takes will remain with a standard type of camera recording. My only requirement is just the REC rules to be respected by both sides: students and instructors. All the students are equals and the rules must be respected in the same way for all of us without exceptions wink.gif

This post has been edited by Monica Gheorghevici: Mar 30 2016, 10:22 AM
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bleez
post Mar 30 2016, 10:38 AM
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This is a really good point Monica brings up.
personally, I think REC takes should be one camera angle which shows both hands.
Unless the main lesson has cuts then that would be okay, for example something like Guido's repeating lesson .
other angles could be done for someones YT page but the one angle version for REC IMO.


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yoncopin
post Mar 30 2016, 03:17 PM
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I agree with Monica. I don't see any issue with video editing, or even audio editing for that matter. The student is presenting a product to be graded, and if someone wants to punch in/out a lesson 100 times to get a take, the only person who loses is the student (provided that the number of submissions aren't overworking the instructors).

For my playing, I'm most interested in home studio recording and production. Allowing edits in REC would let me to get feedback and grow my audio/video production skills. The production quality could be an entire grading criteria itself, open for critique and scoring.

The videos I produce are essentially my final "performance" because I don't play live. Feedback on the overall quality level would be really useful.

This post has been edited by yoncopin: Mar 30 2016, 03:19 PM


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Phil66
post Mar 30 2016, 03:34 PM
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I see where you'e coming from Brian but, I think the worry is that some will cheat, as I said, I don't think the current wave of REC posters like, you Monica et al would do that, I know I certainly wouldn't.

I also think the take should at least be one single audio take even if you do use different camera angles but it's harder for judges to be sure it is one take when the video is jumping from angle to angle. The idea of REC, or how I see it, is purely to judge your playing skills, not how well you can edit the best pieces of a few takes to make one good one, this is a different skill.

I know that we all, usually due to REC button syndrome, do more than one take for REC but, the best one shows that we can actually play the piece from start to end at a respectable level.

I also don't think it would be fair if it is part of the grading system, some people don't have the equipment and/or the time to produce a multi angle video.Maybe we need a new thread whereby you create your single take, single angle single audio video for REC and then spend however much time you wish to work on a multi angle one to be critiqued.

Cheers

Phil


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yoncopin
post Mar 30 2016, 03:52 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Mar 30 2016, 10:34 AM) *
I see where you'e coming from Brian but, I think the worry is that some will cheat, as I said, I don't think the current wave of REC posters like, you Monica et al would do that, I know I certainly wouldn't.


I guess my point is I don't really care if someone "cheats", it doesn't affect me at all. I don't really see it as cheating anyway, the lessons are done in sections, professional studios do it, and it would save me a lot of time to split a take into a few pieces if I wanted to. As it stands, I haven't done a REC take in a while because the recording process takes forever, despite knowing I can play something to my level of satisfaction. What I want the instructor to hear is what I THINK is my best take and critique it, because they'll find the things I missed or can't hear. If I flub a note, I don't need it pointed out, I know it's there and I know how to correct it.

The only downside I see is if the number of submissions increased and overwhelmed the instructors ability to grade in a timely fashion.

QUOTE (Phil66 @ Mar 30 2016, 10:34 AM) *
I also don't think it would be fair if it is part of the grading system, some people don't have the equipment and/or the time to produce a multi angle video.Maybe we need a new thread whereby you create your single take, single angle single audio video for REC and then spend however much time you wish to work on a multi angle one to be critiqued.


This I agree with, that makes sense.

This post has been edited by yoncopin: Mar 30 2016, 03:55 PM


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Caelumamittendum
post Mar 30 2016, 03:56 PM
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I don't have much to add or say here. As Yoncopin said, I don't care if anyone "cheats". I know a lot of musicians (I guess most?) don't record a whole song in one take when they're in the studio. When I record songs I go about it in chunks too. Of course I don't play live or play with a band, in which case things would change and I would practice things in full even more. At the moment I'm just interested in the writing and production process.


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Phil66
post Mar 30 2016, 04:09 PM
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I kind of agree with both of you about not caring if people cheat, I don't care if they do but it still devalues the REC system.

I still think after all that you have both said about live vs studio, that the REC take is a live take of your ability to play a piece accurately, that is where the skill lies, not in splicing and overdubbing.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree wink.gif

Brian, I don't understand how you can want to do multi angle video when you say that the recording process takes too long as it is. That's another reason for one angle one audio.

I'm really starting to think that along with >>>THIS<<< thread there should be a "recording/mixing/videoing thread for those that want their videos critiqued for the production rather than just playing ability.

Great discussion, thanks Monica smile.gif


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Caelumamittendum
post Mar 30 2016, 04:12 PM
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I think I somehow was in a hurry writing my last reply. I agree that REC is probably more live than not, so in some way I agree it maybe should be a "live"-take.


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bleez
post Mar 30 2016, 04:48 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Mar 30 2016, 04:09 PM) *
I kind of agree with both of you about not caring if people cheat, I don't care if they do but it still devalues the REC system.
I still think after all that you have both said about live vs studio, that the REC take is a live take of your ability to play a piece accurately, that is where the skill lies, not in splicing and overdubbing.

Yes indeed. That would also be my view of the REC. I thought that was the whole point of the REC program tbh.

QUOTE (Monica Gheorghevici @ Mar 25 2016, 08:39 AM) *
Also I'm very conscious that using different camera angles will make impossible an objective feedback for posture, precision, relaxation in playing, picking direction, etc. So, this means that will break the rule no.4 which is mentioned at the beginning of main topic.

also agree.






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Darius Wave
post Mar 30 2016, 05:20 PM
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I think there is not much to brainstorm about in this topic if we consider a few reasonable arguments:

1. One take video means you've leanred the lesson because you are able to play it at once. If you made a mistake we can at least what exactly happened with your hands at that moment to suggest a fix. If there is a multiple video shott's then we're not able to do so becasue your hands could act totally different in the "second layer video"

2. Instructors are obligated to put straight, "both hands" videos unless there are multiple parts/layers...which seems to be obvious
You can notice my video in ballad soloing 2 lesson is different than the one I've published on youtube. It has only one shot recording so student can see everything clearly with no distraction

3. You can always upload 2 vidoes. Record one take, one angle video and upload it as "non-public" to youtube. you can post non-public video in the REC thread - we will see it. Then you can record additional video angles to match with previously recorded audio and video. This way you will prepare nice looking adn interesting video for your own promotion on your you tube channel.


Please do not misunderstood the purpose of rec section. We really need to have one take with full song. Otherwise it's hard to tell if something is begin learned properly or not. How can anyone say "I can play this song" if he's not able to play it in one take? We're not robots. It's not the same as recording an album to archive your own work for years forward. REC takes have educational purpose and meaning. Of course they are being used as self promotion by students, but if someone likes to add some more fancy video stuff to make the take look even better, then I highly advice to do it like mentioned above - 2 videos where sencon one is actually a first one + additional shotts


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Monica Gheorghev...
post Mar 30 2016, 05:52 PM
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@ Darek: I'm agree with you but please can you explain me why instructors allowed 2 takes in REC recorded with different camera angles without any penalty?
I recognize that I'm a little (or more) upset because of this. I don't think it's fair that the rules to not be applied in the same way for all the students.
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nikeman64
post Mar 30 2016, 07:55 PM
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QUOTE (Monica Gheorghevici @ Mar 30 2016, 04:52 PM) *
@ Darek: I'm agree with you but please can you explain me why instructors allowed 2 takes in REC recorded with different camera angles without any penalty?
I recognize that I'm a little (or more) upset because of this. I don't think it's fair that the rules to not be applied in the same way for all the students.

I agree with Monica. Whatever policy or decision comes out of this tread, it should be equal to everyone. 1 LINE !!! WhenI became member of GMC I started almost immediately with REC takes. Obviously for knowing what I do wrong and how to improve it. We have great instructors we all look up to and we can only learn from them if they can see and hear our good and bads. And IMHO learning is key in the REC !!!!! Showing off, that's a different segment, which I also understand, love and seek. But it's a different stage. So, REC : 1 audiotake : absolutely !! Different camera angles would be OK for me if you DO have different cameras. Otherwise you will be playbacking (or comping). Copy, paste and comping stuff is something you should keep for other recordings and in the right environment, I see absolutely no problem in that because that's what (almost) everybody does, even the great guitar Gods of this world, so why shouldn't you. If you let Andy Timmons, or Vai, or Satch play something 10 or 100 times, they will too have their favourite recordings and maybe comp to their preferation. But here we are talking REC !!!!!
What I personally don't see as a problem is some post production like mixing and even mastering techniques. We all want to sound as good as possible. So : play good and, if necessairy, apply some EQ, compression, vsti's or whatever to polish the sound (I believe that's also been done by some instructors) and that's it. Send it to the Gods smile.gif and pray for a good quotation cool.gif ohmy.gif biggrin.gif And be proud to your deserved title!!! wink.gif


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Arpeggio
post Apr 1 2016, 10:25 PM
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QUOTE (nikeman64 @ Mar 30 2016, 07:55 PM) *
Copy, paste and comping stuff is something you should keep for other recordings and in the right environment, I see absolutely no problem in that because that's what (almost) everybody does, even the great guitar Gods of this world, so why shouldn't you. If you let Andy Timmons, or Vai, or Satch play something 10 or 100 times, they will too have their favourite recordings and maybe comp to their preferation. But here we are talking REC !!!!!


Agree. Speaking in terms of film I suppose it's bit like multiple takes in a scene. However in a casting call / audition for an actor it has to be live in order to asses them. While there is no irony in how later in a film production, the chosen actor might be required to do multiple takes due to someone else's, or their own execution of a particular scene.

Perhaps casting calls / auditions for film could sort of be seen as the equivalent to REC takes / sitting a graded music exam.


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Phil66
post Apr 1 2016, 10:56 PM
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QUOTE (Arpeggio @ Apr 1 2016, 10:25 PM) *
Agree. Speaking in terms of film I suppose it's bit like multiple takes in a scene. However in a casting call / audition for an actor it has to be live in order to asses them. While there is no irony in how later in a film production, the chosen actor might be required to do multiple takes due to someone else's, or their own execution of a particular scene.

Perhaps casting calls / auditions for film could sort of be seen as the equivalent to REC takes / sitting a graded music exam.

Yes I agree 100% it's like an audition smile.gif

This post has been edited by Phil66: Apr 2 2016, 03:00 PM


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Darius Wave
post Apr 2 2016, 11:35 AM
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QUOTE (Monica Gheorghevici @ Mar 30 2016, 05:52 PM) *
@ Darek: I'm agree with you but please can you explain me why instructors allowed 2 takes in REC recorded with different camera angles without any penalty?
I recognize that I'm a little (or more) upset because of this. I don't think it's fair that the rules to not be applied in the same way for all the students.



I can't speak of others but I always try to inform that we need a one take with clear both hands visibility, once I see it's something different happening in the REC take. You are right - they should not to it other way....but someone has to tell them first. So it's natural that takes like this will happen sometimes. You instead of them are wiser and can avoid this because having all the interest in getting best results in your playing. I think it's alos a matter of how much attention and how much you care about your own progress.

QUOTE (Arpeggio @ Apr 1 2016, 10:25 PM) *
Agree. Speaking in terms of film I suppose it's bit like multiple takes in a scene. However in a casting call / audition for an actor it has to be live in order to asses them. While there is no irony in how later in a film production, the chosen actor might be required to do multiple takes due to someone else's, or their own execution of a particular scene.

Perhaps casting calls / auditions for film could sort of be seen as the equivalent to REC takes / sitting a graded music exam.



Great example!

This post has been edited by Darius Wave: Apr 2 2016, 11:34 AM


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Arpeggio
post Apr 2 2016, 01:37 PM
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Cheers both! happy.gif


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