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> 15 Hr Minimum Wage, finally
jstcrsn
post Apr 16 2016, 03:57 PM
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looks like the compassion of people is finally paying dividends
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-garm...0416-story.html
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Todd Simpson
post Apr 16 2016, 07:24 PM
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Sure, there will be companies that go off shore. Bound to happen. But for folks who live and work in this country, $15 seems like it should be the rock bottom floor. Below that and folks typically have to use govt assistance in the form of food stamps and other things just to get buy which increases the burden on social resources and keeps certain portions of taxes needlessly high. In the long term, I think giving people a respectable, living wage, is the only way forward for our country IMHO. Anyone working 40 hours a week, shouldn't need foot stamps to survive IMHO sad.gif


Also, legalization and taxation of Marijuanna is another controversial topic that could lead to massive expansion of our tax base, and cut the cartels off at the knees. It just makes sense which is why many states have adopted it. It will take time, but Americans are slowly waking up and older voters are thankfully moving on to their great reward so that new ideas can be given a chance.


Here is a link to another article saying the opposite of the first article posted per usual smile.gif And it's got wads of corroborating evidence and studies.
http://economicrt.org/publication/effects-...of-los-angeles/

But as has been mentioned, these threads tend to go round and round without much progress being made on either side so ....

Back to making today's lesson!

Todd

QUOTE (jstcrsn @ Apr 16 2016, 10:57 AM) *
looks like the compassion of people is finally paying dividends
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-garm...0416-story.html


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Apr 16 2016, 08:09 PM


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klasaine
post Apr 16 2016, 08:48 PM
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The company in question, 'American Apparel', just emerged from eighteen months of Chapter 11 bankruptcy, with new owners, and had already laid off hundreds prior to this new minimum wage increase. Also, as the article states, since 2005, the garment industry in L.A. had already lost 33% of it's workers to offshoring.

For sure, some/many low or no skilled workers will lose jobs and some companies will use the higher wage scale as an excuse to off shore or downsize (maybe validly) but I doubt it will hurt overall employment. Historically, it usually doesn't.

The economy here in Los Angeles is pretty good. The city's growing, we need infrastructure and services so even if the garment manufacturing industry declines, construction and service gigs will more than likely take it's place.

*Garment workers have an interesting arrangement with their wages. You're allowed to pay them by the piece but you have to make up the difference if they don't reach the current 'hourly minimum wage'. The skilled cutters and sewers in many cases make more than minimum wage ($9.00 now).

We'll see.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Apr 17 2016, 02:26 AM


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Chris S.
post Apr 16 2016, 09:38 PM
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Would that minimum be a standard for military branches as well?

$7.25 is PAs minimum and I make $11 and am full time in school and I'm struggling so I can't even imagine where I would be if I was only making 7.25.

But if it passes and I make $15 working in a toy store, and end up making more money than someone defending the country I just don't see how that would be right.


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klasaine
post Apr 16 2016, 10:55 PM
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QUOTE (Chris S. @ Apr 16 2016, 12:38 PM) *
Would that minimum be a standard for military branches as well?

$7.25 is PAs minimum and I make $11 and am full time in school and I'm struggling so I can't even imagine where I would be if I was only making 7.25.

But if it passes and I make $15 working in a toy store, and end up making more money than someone defending the country I just don't see how that would be right.


Military personnel get room and board (if they want it), training, full medical care and a pension after 20 years of service.
Other than social security and unemployment ins. (1/2 you, 1/2 your employer) what do you get with your $11.00? Medical, housing, food, some education - ? ... I don't think so.

Calculating what a wage - any wage - actually buys you is very dependent on all the demographics of an area.
Where I live, 15 bucks an hour will not get you anything but a tiny studio apartment (or a room in a house), maybe a 10 year old car and you definitely ain't going out much.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Apr 17 2016, 02:20 AM


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PosterBoy
post Apr 17 2016, 10:45 AM
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In the UK taxpayers are subsidising the big supermarkets by £11Bn in benefits to their low paid staff.


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fzalfa
post Apr 17 2016, 11:42 AM
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military are payed $7.25 per hours ?

in france, the military do not count hours, you are military everytime, so you have a month paiement (about 1800 usd for a starting recuit)

Laurent


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AK Rich
post Apr 17 2016, 04:23 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Apr 16 2016, 10:48 AM) *
The economy here in Los Angeles is pretty good. The city's growing, we need infrastructure and services so even if the garment manufacturing industry declines, construction and service gigs will more than likely take it's place.


Having worked in the construction industry since the early 80's I can tell you that most outfits, especially the smaller builders, can not afford to pay a bottom of the totem pole laborer who can't read a tape measure or make a square cut on a 2x4 no $15 an hour, they simply are not worth it. I have always paid my laborers well over the minimum wage. $12 an hour is what I pay them in recent years which is more than fair in my opinion and I have had no complaints about that wage. If I have to pay them $15 an hour then they will only be working part time at best. I going to pay them the same as I have been overall by cutting their hours.

So while I agree that min wage is often too low. $15 an hour is just too much to pay to folks with no skills.

I don't think the construction industry can or will pick up those unemployed garment manufacturing laborers at $15 an hour full time, especially if they have no experience.

Some regions are doing better economically than others and some have higher costs of living than others so the effects won't be the same everywhere, but I think in many regions a min wage that high will mean unemployment or limited employment for a lot of folks who now have full time jobs. And for a small mom and pop type business, a min wage that high is going to hurt quite a bit most everywhere.

I think it is very naive to think that raising the min wage will get folks off of gov assistance as has been mentioned in this thread. The opposite is more likely when employers can't afford to pay unskilled workers that kind of full time wage.

This post has been edited by AK Rich: Apr 17 2016, 04:46 PM
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PosterBoy
post Apr 17 2016, 04:43 PM
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Is the set up for minimum wage meant to be a living wage?

or is it a bottom of the rung wage rung for school leavers, or people that haven't yet proved themselves with higher education or experience, so basically a temporary wage until you prove your worth more.

Then the problem is employers that don't want to move you out of the minimum wage bucket to a higher tier.


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Rammikin
post Apr 17 2016, 04:55 PM
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QUOTE (AK Rich @ Apr 17 2016, 03:23 PM) *
Some regions are doing better economically than others and some have higher costs of living than others so the effects won't be the same everywhere, but I think in many regions a min wage that high will mean unemployment or limited employment for a lot of folks who now have full time jobs. And for a small mom and pop type business, a min wage that high is going to hurt quite a bit most everywhere.


Trying to find the sweet spot between something that is a decent minimum wage that is high enough to live on and low enough to avoid being overly burdensome is an extremely complicated calculus. Anecdotes and guesses are, please forgive me for saying this, pretty useless when trying to find that sweet spot.

You just have to try out different values and then measure the consequences throughout the economy. I commend any community/state that is willing to experiment and change things in an effort to find the best minimum wage. It would be great to see more willingness to try different things and experiment with solutions for a variety of economic and societal problems. Instead, our leaders seem to be paralyzed by intransigence and fear that prevents them from trying out new ideas.


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klasaine
post Apr 17 2016, 05:04 PM
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I'm just talking about the overall work flow of employment from one general sector to another - manufacturing to service and/or infrastructure. Obviously a 60 year old seamstress won't be switching to framing a house anytime soon but maybe her son or husband will. The max increase to $15 is gradual. $15 doesn't actually hit until 2021 (2020 if you have more than 25 employees).

So far, this is only in Seattle, SF, LA and maybe NYC and some home health care workers in Mass. *I think only fourteen cities nationwide.
These are EXTREMELY high cost of living locales. I wouldn't necessarily agree on a Fed min wage increase to $15. Maybe $12 by 2020 - ?

This post has been edited by klasaine: Apr 17 2016, 06:47 PM


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AK Rich
post Apr 17 2016, 06:51 PM
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QUOTE (Rammikin @ Apr 17 2016, 06:55 AM) *
Trying to find the sweet spot between something that is a decent minimum wage that is high enough to live on and low enough to avoid being overly burdensome is an extremely complicated calculus. Anecdotes and guesses are, please forgive me for saying this, pretty useless when trying to find that sweet spot.

You just have to try out different values and then measure the consequences throughout the economy. I commend any community/state that is willing to experiment and change things in an effort to find the best minimum wage. It would be great to see more willingness to try different things and experiment with solutions for a variety of economic and societal problems. Instead, our leaders seem to be paralyzed by intransigence and fear that prevents them from trying out new ideas.


Sure, but as an employer, I know what my bottom line is and I know how much I can afford to pay the help and still make a fair profit. there is no guesswork and it is not complicated at all. The guesswork is coming from those in gov doing the experimentation and setting the wages isn't it?

They can set min wage at $15 or $50 an hour if they want but the overall amount that I can afford to pay the help stays the same as it is now unless I am going to raise my rates for the services I provide accordingly.

To expand on what Ken stated about the proposed min wage, even at $15 an hour at a full time job you could still be one paycheck away from being homeless depending on how you manage your money in this country. A lot of people here have a champagne appetite and a beer budget, and increasingly the younger generation feels that society somehow owes them something simply for existing or they feel their personal value is worth far more than it actually is.

I don't know how to solve the problem but I do know how the proposals to solve it will affect me. And I know what I will need to do to adapt.
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Mudbone
post Apr 17 2016, 11:45 PM
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I would rather see Walmart and fast food industry workers unionize. They can bargain for higher wages. Plus the rest of us won't have to subsidize Walmart's cheap labor. These industries can afford to pay their workers more without drastically effecting prices. We're at a juncture now where high paying factory jobs have been replaced by service industry jobs that pay shit.


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jstcrsn
post Apr 26 2016, 12:45 AM
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QUOTE (Chris S. @ Apr 16 2016, 09:38 PM) *
Would that minimum be a standard for military branches as well?

$7.25 is PAs minimum and I make $11 and am full time in school and I'm struggling so I can't even imagine where I would be if I was only making 7.25.

But if it passes and I make $15 working in a toy store, and end up making more money than someone defending the country I just don't see how that would be right.

sorry . I posted and then got to busy to respond . it is so fun responding because no matter my source , the other side gets to tell me that my sources are of of course wrong and unqualified to speak on such a topic , so here is a liberal source , as i agree with his reasoning of harm , I believe there would be better options to spur job growth. Not to mention the trained employee that alrady makes 15 , he will definitely want more than an untrained peon . And the one who makes 18 , he will not except making the same as the fifteen that just got a raise too. so within a business with 3 employees my overhead just went up 9 an hour(18,700 per year -if I had this much , I would have hired another employee ) not to mention workmans comp that is salary based. As an employer I also have to match the employees social security and medicare with holding - bringing that total up to about 25, 000

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/warren-buffe...-122322575.html
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Rammikin
post Apr 26 2016, 03:30 AM
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QUOTE (Mudbone @ Apr 17 2016, 10:45 PM) *
I would rather see Walmart and fast food industry workers unionize. They can bargain for higher wages. Plus the rest of us won't have to subsidize Walmart's cheap labor. These industries can afford to pay their workers more without drastically effecting prices. We're at a juncture now where high paying factory jobs have been replaced by service industry jobs that pay shit.


That would be a good solution for employees of large companies. Unfortunately, many of those workers are in states that have laws that make it extremely difficult to organize or join a union.


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