Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Alternate Picking Problem., Ideas to break a habit of a long time please.
Phil66
post Apr 25 2016, 08:29 PM
Post #1


Learning Apprentice Player
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.209
Joined: 5-July 14
From: The Black Country, England
Member No.: 19.975



Hello folks,

I've been struggling with Ben's Petrucci lesson and I'm struggling with the same sort of thing that I struggled with on one of Darius' lessons and I had to give that one up.

I think that tonight, I may have found the problem. I remember playing one of my guitar teachers the intro to Tobacco Road by Mr Vai (Dave Lee Roth band). He watched my picking and said it was strange. Didn't say much else, didn't say it needed working on but I think it is a contributing factor in my struggle. I've analysed my picking tonight and I almost always pick in the direction of travel. There's probably a name for it but when I first picked up a guitar all those years ago, and for the many many following years, it just seemed to make sense, why go past a string that needs picking, without picking it on the way? It seemed like wasted effort and too much distance going down past a string to pick it upwards unsure.gif rolleyes.gif

Anyway, I need some advice to break this habit please. Or a suggestion to a lesson that will be the best for someone who has a bad habit to break.

Here is a pdf of how I pick the run. I've found I really really really have to concentrate to do strict alternate picking and as it speeds up, my old habit returns. I know there are lessons on here but if there are any mind tricks to break a habit please let me know smile.gif

Attached File  PICKING.pdf ( 20.03K ) Number of downloads: 51


Thanks folks, I guess I won't be posting any takes in REC for a while until I've sorted this problem out, wax on, wax off ph34r.gif


--------------------

GMC CERTIFICATE

“Success is not obtained overnight. It comes in installments; you get a little bit today, a little bit tomorrow until the whole package is given out. The day you procrastinate, you lose that day's success.”
Israelmore Ayivor
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Chris S.
post Apr 25 2016, 09:23 PM
Post #2


Learning Apprentice Player
*

Group: Members
Posts: 810
Joined: 3-June 11
From: United States
Member No.: 12.988



Looks like you're using economy picking - technically not a bad thing, although I prefer to stick with alternate picking.

Funny thing is I was strictly alternate picking, and tried to move to economy picking but I hated how it felt so I abandoned it - kinda a reverse situation almost.

Like anything else, slow it down - real slowwww - if this is how you normally pick this is pretty much hard wired into your brain/muscles, you will have to use an alternate picking workout/exercise and keep it nice and slow to "lose the bad habit" (even though it's not really a bad habit).

Possibly one our alternate picking lessons. Just keep it slow, as painful as it can be and make sure you're focusing on your picking, ensuring you're staying true to the alternate picking and not sneaking any economy in there.

That's my advice for whatever it's worth tongue.gif

Like I said, economy picking isn't a bad thing and a lot of people swear by it, but if you're struggling with it, it might be worth losing it and using strict alternate picking.



--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mertay
post Apr 25 2016, 10:06 PM
Post #3


GMC:er
Group Icon

Group: GMC Senior
Posts: 2.856
Joined: 27-May 13
From: Turkey / izmir
Member No.: 18.294



I believe there are possibly 2 stages of picking for a guitar students, first years I call it controlled as everything must be ultra clean, usually practiced slow.

Then comes the faster stuff as the wrist can't handle by its own. Ben has a video on it;



Might be a good time start working on it as it will also help breaking the habit.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Phil66
post Apr 26 2016, 06:24 AM
Post #4


Learning Apprentice Player
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.209
Joined: 5-July 14
From: The Black Country, England
Member No.: 19.975



Thanks Chris and Mertay,

I'm thinking economy picking, as you call it, is harder to control as you are stopping the regular action of the wrist, kinda putting the brakes on for a split second.

I'm gonna need a mental soldering iron to undo that hard wiring smile.gif

Cheers


--------------------

GMC CERTIFICATE

“Success is not obtained overnight. It comes in installments; you get a little bit today, a little bit tomorrow until the whole package is given out. The day you procrastinate, you lose that day's success.”
Israelmore Ayivor
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bleez
post Apr 26 2016, 06:44 AM
Post #5


Experienced Tone Seeker
*

Group: Members
Posts: 3.054
Joined: 4-November 11
From: Scotland
Member No.: 14.292



I wouldn't think that economy picking would be stopping you playing the petrucci lesson. Is it not just a case of hand sync? which even if you are only 10% off full speed can take a while to build up, certainly in my case!
but its an interesting topic, It'll be good to hear what some of the instructors think.


--------------------


You say 'minor pentatonic ' like it's a bad thing
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Phil66
post Apr 26 2016, 08:19 AM
Post #6


Learning Apprentice Player
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.209
Joined: 5-July 14
From: The Black Country, England
Member No.: 19.975



Thanks Scott,

Yeah, I hear what you're saying but, I've been likening it to things like darts and golf, when you throw or swing, you follow through, economy picking takes more control with the right hand because you have to slow down the stroke to hit the string on time. It may come natural to some but I think alternate is more metronomic so should be easier to control if I can break the habit.
Imagine throwing a dart and slowing down at the midpoint, or taking a penalty and slowing down at the midpoint. I know we are talking much smaller movements on the guitar so the inertia effect won't be anywhere near as powerful but it will be there.
Maybe, even though I've done it for years, economy picking, as I have now found out it is, it isn't really for me.

Thanks for your input mate smile.gif

Cheers


--------------------

GMC CERTIFICATE

“Success is not obtained overnight. It comes in installments; you get a little bit today, a little bit tomorrow until the whole package is given out. The day you procrastinate, you lose that day's success.”
Israelmore Ayivor
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ben Higgins
post Apr 26 2016, 09:55 AM
Post #7


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 13.788
Joined: 11-March 10
From: England
Member No.: 9.820



The funny thing is you've actually recognised your problem, analysed it and found the solution biggrin.gif

This kind of awareness is really crucial in guitar playing, I think.

As you say, economy picking interrupts the pendulum like swing of alternate picking and relies on the continual flow of a particular direction. This can be a good thing for certain licks, mainly faster licks.

But for many situations, alternate picking really is the way to go. There's more rhythm control.

Tbh, now that you've recognised what you're doing, there is no quick and easy way to make sure you always alternate. You know what the issue is now, you know what you need to do so you just have to do it smile.gif

Every time you work on that lick, just make sure you use alternate picking. Don't keep at it for too long.. just do a bit of it and make sure the bit you do is good. Then move onto something else and come back to it the next day. Little and often and make sure the data input is positive each time.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Phil66
post Apr 26 2016, 11:09 AM
Post #8


Learning Apprentice Player
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.209
Joined: 5-July 14
From: The Black Country, England
Member No.: 19.975



Thanks Ben,

Know a good hypnotist? wink.gif

Cheers


--------------------

GMC CERTIFICATE

“Success is not obtained overnight. It comes in installments; you get a little bit today, a little bit tomorrow until the whole package is given out. The day you procrastinate, you lose that day's success.”
Israelmore Ayivor
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Gabriel Leopardi
post Apr 26 2016, 03:30 PM
Post #9


Instructor
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 29.226
Joined: 3-March 07
From: Argentina
Member No.: 1.289



Hi Phil, I think that you've received the right feedback here! I first found this question at the mentoring thread and commented similar things there...

LINK HERE.


And share this video from the master of economy picking:



--------------------
My lessons

Do you need a Guitar Plan?
Join Gab's Army

Check my band:Cirse
Check my soundcloud:Soundcloud

Please subscribe to my:Youtube Channel
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Phil66
post Apr 26 2016, 08:19 PM
Post #10


Learning Apprentice Player
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.209
Joined: 5-July 14
From: The Black Country, England
Member No.: 19.975



Thanks Gab,

I've never really been a fusion fan but I know Mr Gambale is incredible.

So I need to go away and get this sorted out. I've only ever noodled before joining GMC but I must have always done this, so it will be extremely hard wired sad.gif

If it's ok with you, I'm going to work on this lesson for a while https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/ls/Altern...king-Workout-4/ as well as practising the Petrucci lesson with correct picking.

I can't believe I was doing this still while thinking that I was alternate picking.

Cheers folks.

See you all soon.

This post has been edited by Phil66: Apr 26 2016, 09:04 PM


--------------------

GMC CERTIFICATE

“Success is not obtained overnight. It comes in installments; you get a little bit today, a little bit tomorrow until the whole package is given out. The day you procrastinate, you lose that day's success.”
Israelmore Ayivor
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bleez
post Apr 26 2016, 09:17 PM
Post #11


Experienced Tone Seeker
*

Group: Members
Posts: 3.054
Joined: 4-November 11
From: Scotland
Member No.: 14.292



so phil, Im guessing that this just happens when you change strings, you basically start with a downstroke regardless of whether the previous stroke was and up or down?
youre probably alt picking when on one string. I dont think it will be a major thing to correct. you'll soon get the rhythm of it.


--------------------


You say 'minor pentatonic ' like it's a bad thing
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Phil66
post Apr 27 2016, 07:38 AM
Post #12


Learning Apprentice Player
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.209
Joined: 5-July 14
From: The Black Country, England
Member No.: 19.975



Yeah Scott, you got it, I also do it coming across the neck towards the bass strings, I pick up.

Cheers smile.gif


--------------------

GMC CERTIFICATE

“Success is not obtained overnight. It comes in installments; you get a little bit today, a little bit tomorrow until the whole package is given out. The day you procrastinate, you lose that day's success.”
Israelmore Ayivor
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Phil66
post May 7 2016, 09:23 PM
Post #13


Learning Apprentice Player
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.209
Joined: 5-July 14
From: The Black Country, England
Member No.: 19.975



He says nothing new here but saying "until the hands are talking to each other" puts a whole new spin on it wink.gif

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NtMqpRluAY


--------------------

GMC CERTIFICATE

“Success is not obtained overnight. It comes in installments; you get a little bit today, a little bit tomorrow until the whole package is given out. The day you procrastinate, you lose that day's success.”
Israelmore Ayivor
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Todd Simpson
post May 7 2016, 10:37 PM
Post #14


GMC:er
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 14.755
Joined: 23-December 09
From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Member No.: 8.794



WHAT HE SAID!!! smile.gif

Well said Ben. Often, we can work through our own issues, with just a bit of help from the forum which is what makes our forum so cool smile.gif

I'd say what the others are saying, play very slow and controlled, at first. Don't push past the point of playing clean/even/measured notes. Only bump the metronome up one or two beats at at time. It's a process of earning the crap out of it. Also, you have to find out what works best for your hand, which is sounds like you are doing smile.gif

Also, could you make a short vid of the problem spot you are talking about so we can see you play? I'm sure I could be much more helpful even with a short clip from a cell phone or something.

QUOTE (Ben Higgins @ Apr 26 2016, 04:55 AM) *
The funny thing is you've actually recognised your problem, analysed it and found the solution biggrin.gif

This kind of awareness is really crucial in guitar playing, I think.

As you say, economy picking interrupts the pendulum like swing of alternate picking and relies on the continual flow of a particular direction. This can be a good thing for certain licks, mainly faster licks.

But for many situations, alternate picking really is the way to go. There's more rhythm control.

Tbh, now that you've recognised what you're doing, there is no quick and easy way to make sure you always alternate. You know what the issue is now, you know what you need to do so you just have to do it smile.gif

Every time you work on that lick, just make sure you use alternate picking. Don't keep at it for too long.. just do a bit of it and make sure the bit you do is good. Then move onto something else and come back to it the next day. Little and often and make sure the data input is positive each time.


This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: May 7 2016, 10:39 PM


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Phil66
post May 7 2016, 10:53 PM
Post #15


Learning Apprentice Player
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.209
Joined: 5-July 14
From: The Black Country, England
Member No.: 19.975



Thanks Todd,
I'll try and get a video to you tomorrow. I'm struggling to break my barrier, even by one BPM.
Cheers


--------------------

GMC CERTIFICATE

“Success is not obtained overnight. It comes in installments; you get a little bit today, a little bit tomorrow until the whole package is given out. The day you procrastinate, you lose that day's success.”
Israelmore Ayivor
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Todd Simpson
post May 9 2016, 10:00 AM
Post #16


GMC:er
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 14.755
Joined: 23-December 09
From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Member No.: 8.794



No worries smile.gif We are here to help. Play it at any speed that is comfy so we can take a look at it smile.gif Makes things much easier to see what's going on and easier to give good advice on what might benefit your approach to the lick!

Todd


QUOTE (Phil66 @ May 7 2016, 05:53 PM) *
Thanks Todd,
I'll try and get a video to you tomorrow. I'm struggling to break my barrier, even by one BPM.
Cheers



--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Phil66
post May 9 2016, 11:31 AM
Post #17


Learning Apprentice Player
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.209
Joined: 5-July 14
From: The Black Country, England
Member No.: 19.975



Thanks,

Gab asked me to post a video of me playing it at a comfortable speed in my mentoring thread but it won't hurt to put it here as I'm sure there are many "shy" members having issues that may see it here wink.gif

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...st&p=731847
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-4gKUi3oRQ



Cheers

This post has been edited by Phil66: May 10 2016, 08:10 PM


--------------------

GMC CERTIFICATE

“Success is not obtained overnight. It comes in installments; you get a little bit today, a little bit tomorrow until the whole package is given out. The day you procrastinate, you lose that day's success.”
Israelmore Ayivor
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Todd Simpson
post May 10 2016, 09:51 PM
Post #18


GMC:er
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 14.755
Joined: 23-December 09
From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Member No.: 8.794



Looks ok to me smile.gif You are muting well and not getting unwanted string noise and your picking is precise. You are not hitting strings or notes that you dont want to hit. When you bump up a bpm or few on the metronome, where do things start to fall apart?

Also, I often use econ picking when going to higher strings and alternate when going to lower strings so during traverse (moving between strings) going up in pitch, econ can work really well as it takes advantage of the direction the hand is going anyway smile.gif

Now that we have a baseline, can you record us a quick vid of you playing it at a speed that creates the issues/problems you mentioned? At first blush, it seems like you have a command of the fretting/picking and hand synch. I suspect you may be going a pinch to fast to early if it's falling apart at high speed. You can leave the video UNLISTED if you like so folks on youtube can't see it. But I'm sure we could help a bit if we see the problems with our own eyes. I'll try to record the same lick to show you how I'd play it as well.

Todd


QUOTE (Phil66 @ May 9 2016, 06:31 AM) *
Thanks,

Gab asked me to post a video of me playing it at a comfortable speed in my mentoring thread but it won't hurt to put it here as I'm sure there are many "shy" members having issues that may see it here wink.gif

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_fo...st&p=731847
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-4gKUi3oRQ



Cheers


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Phil66
post May 11 2016, 08:05 AM
Post #19


Learning Apprentice Player
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4.209
Joined: 5-July 14
From: The Black Country, England
Member No.: 19.975



Thanks Todd,

I think that alternate picking is better for me at this stage because with something like this, if you do economy picking, you have to slow down the pick as it approaches the next string to prevent it from hitting too early, I watched my hand doing economy picking and if the notes are evenly spaced rhythmically I kind of do a little loop (a la Hotwheels) between strings to delay the hitting of the string to enable timing to be correct. As I got faster, I am assuming this caused the problem as it is more difficult for the brain to control, at my level anyway. So for now I think strict alternate picking is the way to go.

Cheers buddy.

Video this evening hopefully.


--------------------

GMC CERTIFICATE

“Success is not obtained overnight. It comes in installments; you get a little bit today, a little bit tomorrow until the whole package is given out. The day you procrastinate, you lose that day's success.”
Israelmore Ayivor
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Todd Simpson
post May 11 2016, 03:32 PM
Post #20


GMC:er
Group Icon

Group: GMC Instructor
Posts: 14.755
Joined: 23-December 09
From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Member No.: 8.794



You know what they say smile.gif You gotta use whatever works for ya!! smile.gif I have found that using the natural motion of the hand just to keep the pick going the same direction makes ascending licks a bit easier for me but but that's just me smile.gif Some folks prefer Strict AP. Econ picking is it's own beast and is required to play certain bits at speed but this certainly isn't one of them. At this point I'd say you just need more time/practice. Progress is always slow, but it's worth it smile.gif

Todd


QUOTE (Phil66 @ May 11 2016, 03:05 AM) *
Thanks Todd,

I think that alternate picking is better for me at this stage because with something like this, if you do economy picking, you have to slow down the pick as it approaches the next string to prevent it from hitting too early, I watched my hand doing economy picking and if the notes are evenly spaced rhythmically I kind of do a little loop (a la Hotwheels) between strings to delay the hitting of the string to enable timing to be correct. As I got faster, I am assuming this caused the problem as it is more difficult for the brain to control, at my level anyway. So for now I think strict alternate picking is the way to go.

Cheers buddy.

Video this evening hopefully.



--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Fast ReplyReply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 


RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 25th July 2017 - 05:47 AM