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> G String Issue
Phil66
post May 23 2016, 08:10 PM
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Ok, I've had an answer from the PRS Technical Manager. I've left his name off here, just telling you so you don't think he's rude by not signing off wink.gif

Hi Phil
Apologies for late reply – this sounds like some kind of dead spot issue, I will investigate tomorrow and reply in depth.

Best regards

Technical Manager



Hello Nick,

Thank you for your reply. Is this kind of issue usually fixable?

Cheers

Phil



Hi Phil,
In short no – every guitar will have one or more dead spot(s) it’s just a product of resonances cancelling each other out; people have had some success with fitting clamps to the headstock which add mass to either minimise the effect or shift the frequency affected. However I’m pretty sure certain notes shouldn’t be dead in any position – this is what I need to check tomorrow by going through a few Aces. I will let you know my findings and we’ll take it from there.
Best regards
Nick








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klasaine
post May 23 2016, 09:50 PM
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Wow, I would love to take a look at that guitar.
I've never encountered anything quite like your description ... and I've played (not too mention owned) A LOT of guitars.


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Phil66
post May 23 2016, 10:20 PM
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Yeah it's crazy Ken, the one that blew me away was detuning the string and the B two frets higher was still not sustaining wacko.gif


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Mertay
post May 23 2016, 10:29 PM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ May 23 2016, 08:50 PM) *
Wow, I would love to take a look at that guitar.
I've never encountered anything quite like your description ... and I've played (not too mention owned) A LOT of guitars.


Severity changes so it can take a really long time to notice it. But Phil66's case is pretty extreme, I still suspect the bridge as every B note on the guitar (specially higer notes) shouldn't affect the body mass so much.


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Todd Simpson
post May 26 2016, 03:29 AM
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I can't believe the PRS guy said what he said. Basically every PRS and every guitar has dead spots. I've got a wad of guitars and NONE of them have dead spots. Most of them are Ibanez, and I don't own a PRS but still, I"ve never heard any luthier say anything like that. Sounds like just pure crap to me. Perhaps he is afraid you'll ask for a refund/exchange?

Todd


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Phil66
post May 26 2016, 08:35 AM
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Yeah but he did say that a certain notes shouldn't be dead on all areas so I have that in my favour. My luthier has had dead spots before but nothing like this.
Cheers

This post has been edited by Phil66: May 26 2016, 10:21 AM


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klasaine
post May 26 2016, 02:30 PM
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Did you buy the guitar new?


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Phil66
post May 26 2016, 05:43 PM
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Yeah, late last year. Never noticed this issue though until I did a piece worth some long notes.


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klasaine
post May 26 2016, 06:09 PM
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Weird.
Like Todd, I don't buy the PRS explanation. *Though w/o the tech having your inst in his hand he can't really assess anything.
Guitars do not just inherently have dead spots - even cheap as shit ones.
As I mentioned, besides owning dozens of instruments, I also worked in two different guitar shops. I have never experienced the issue you're describing.

This post has been edited by klasaine: May 26 2016, 06:35 PM


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Phil66
post May 26 2016, 08:03 PM
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Here's the file I sent him, B 16th fret G string (the worst one), followed by A 15th fret G string, and then B 12th fret harmonic followed by G 12th fret harmonic.

It's like this with practically every B, worse on unwound strings and worse above 12th fret than below.

I think I did hit the G harmonic ever so slightly harder but it shouldn't make as much difference as it does surely. This was recorded after the luthier had done fret dressing, string change and a full setup as well as everything else he tried.

It's not four minutes long, I rendered it and forgot to set the area to render and there was a muted backing track in the DAW rolleyes.gif

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/b-1

This post has been edited by Phil66: May 27 2016, 08:24 AM


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Mertay
post May 26 2016, 08:26 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ May 26 2016, 07:03 PM) *
Here's the file I sent him, B 16th fret G string (the worst one), followed by A 15th fret G string, and then B 12th fret harmonic followed by G 12th fret harmonic.

It's like this with practically every B, worse on unwound strings and worse above 12th fret than below.

I think I did hit the G harmonic ever so slightly harder but it should make as much difference as it does surely. This was recorded after the luthier had done fret dressing, string change and a full setup as well as everything else he tried.

It's not four minutes long, I rendered it and forgot to set the area to render and there was a muted backing track in the DAW rolleyes.gif

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/b-1


When the first note is hit, I hear a ringing of the same note. Is the the springs of the guitar or is there reverb on the amp? also could you share a side angle photo of your bridge, I'd like to see if its floating or not.

Edit; meanwhile does your tuner accept alternate tuning? typical is 440hz, try 444 or 438

This post has been edited by Mertay: May 26 2016, 08:46 PM


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Phil66
post May 26 2016, 10:38 PM
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Yeah the ringing on the first note sounds like the string hitting a fret, my luthier moved that string up as high as possible, reset the intonation and it still sounded like it was hitting a fret.

My tuner can take any tuning, what do you have in mind mate??

Cheers

Phil


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Mertay
post May 26 2016, 11:20 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ May 26 2016, 09:38 PM) *
My tuner can take any tuning, what do you have in mind mate??


Instead of changing the note we can slightly tune that note higher or lower, the guitar tends to be forgiving to such small changes. Lets do this with the tuner I'm familiar with;

go to this link and there download GTUNE http://www.gvst.co.uk/downloads.htm

after loading it to the DAW, open the plug-in and you'll see a knob next to CALIB. Turn that to the right till you see 440 go to 444, nowtune all your strings to that setting and check if the deadspot got less noticable. If not, using the same knob adjust to 437 and tune again to see if it works.

So we're only slightly de-tuning the guitar (all strings), we could increase/decrease the values I recommend but if too much then it won't sound well with the backing tracks.


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Todd Simpson
post May 27 2016, 03:56 AM
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It may need to be partially refretted or entirely refretted. Which there is just no excuse for. Being a brand new PRS, it shouldn't have dead spots like that. It's a somewhat high end brand and they pride themselves on their quality. Shooting out guitars with deadzones on them is just beneath everything they stand for. I know they have grown rapidly in the last few years and perhaps quality control has slipped a bit on the sub $1,000 instruments from what I"ve read in some forums. It could be just growing pains of the company. Still, they owe you an instrument that plays well as that what you paid for so I'd honestly return it for another one if the luthier confirms it's just got dead zones on it.


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fzalfa
post May 27 2016, 03:42 PM
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Any buyed guitar (specialy brand new ones) need to go to the luthier for fretting , neck ajustements and more.
it cost some money, but in case of mid end guitar (€piphone in my case) this is mandatory !!!!

All my €pi have pass by the luthier workshop, and the results is awesome, the action is about 1.25mm on E (12th fret) and 1mm at the high E without buzz !

now i have learn how to, and i have tool to work frets, gauge to tune the neck and more...... to save money

Laurent


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Mertay
post May 27 2016, 04:02 PM
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Actually when googled one can see all sort of brands and models of guitars having this issue, we want to the body and neck to vibrate as its a sign of tone but this is the very downside of it-otherwise guitars would have to be extremely heavy or alternativly we consider the guitar dead sounding.

The body and neck resonances to a specific freq. while the strings can change to whatever we play, something like a phase cancellation is bound to happen somewhere among those freq.s (thats why I'd like to try slight de-tuning, hopefully it will help a bit). By the way no one should start searching deadnotes after reading this topic, no good will come from such test smile.gif

This post has been edited by Mertay: May 27 2016, 04:03 PM


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Phil66
post May 27 2016, 09:04 PM
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Hello folks,

OK I couldn't get Gtune to work, I opened it in the DAW but it wasn't getting the signal. I used my GT100 tuner, went from 437hz to 443hz and it actually made it worse.

Here is the G string tuned down to F so I have to play the 18th fret to get B, I play 2 Bs and then two As, the As; obviously are played at the 16th fret where the B was played and died. I find this fascinating. No fx added, just into GT100 on fairly clean setting.

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/b-stuff

Mertay, here is a picture of the trem, it is floating but not as much as a floyd.



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Mertay
post May 27 2016, 09:25 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ May 27 2016, 08:04 PM) *
Hello folks,

OK I couldn't get Gtune to work, I opened it in the DAW but it wasn't getting the signal. I used my GT100 tuner, went from 437hz to 443hz and it actually made it worse.

Here is the G string tuned down to F so I have to play the 18th fret to get B, I play 2 Bs and then two As, the As; obviously are played at the 16th fret where the B was played and died. I find this fascinating. No fx added, just into GT100 on fairly clean setting.

https://soundcloud.com/gmcphil-1/b-stuff

Mertay, here is a picture of the trem, it is floating but not as much as a floyd.



Wish it worked but the good thing is if it got worse then we know its not a fret but a frequency thing smile.gif

The other option to test (which is actually not very hard to do at home but sure the luthier can also do it if you don't have time) is blocking the tremolo. In this video its explained how its done with wood but you can simply stack use a few coins too, idea here is to not let the tremolo vibrate to see if this can solve the problem;





This post has been edited by Mertay: May 27 2016, 09:29 PM


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Phil66
post May 27 2016, 09:39 PM
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QUOTE (Mertay @ May 27 2016, 09:25 PM) *
Wish it worked but the good thing is if it got worse then we know its not a fret but a frequency thing smile.gif

The other option to test (which is actually not very hard to do at home but sure the luthier can also do it if you don't have time) is blocking the tremolo. In this video its explained how its done with wood but you can simply stack use a few coins too, idea here is to not let the tremolo vibrate to see if this can solve the problem;



Has to be a frequency thing because the A at the 16th fret on the detuned G string rings out longer than the B did at the same fret.

Very strange.


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Todd Simpson
post May 28 2016, 03:18 AM
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So did you take it in to your luthier to see if he could fix it? I don't remember where we left off there? If he can't fix it, IMHO, you should get a replacement from PRS. They won't like the idea but a new guitar should play like a new guitar, especially a PRS.

The only thing I can think of is that perhaps the action on the instrument could be raised a bit on that string via the bridge to see if it makes the issue go away. However, even if this works,
QUOTE (Phil66 @ May 27 2016, 04:39 PM) *
Has to be a frequency thing because the A at the 16th fret on the detuned G string rings out longer than the B did at the same fret.

Very strange.


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