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Phil66
post May 31 2016, 07:21 PM
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Hmmmmm, not good, you need to know that I also told them about the state it was in when I received it otherwise it might not make sense.

Hi Phil,
I have had a look at a stock guitar and found that it also has a dead spot but it is on the G string 18th fret (C#). I tuned the G down to F and found that the C# played at the 20th fret was now dead but a B played at the18th fret was ok. This shows the same behaviour as yours does, ie the dead note moves but the dead fret stays the same. This is not entirely surprising as the phenomena is largely a resonance issue so you would expect the frequency affected to remain the same.
Regarding the condition of the guitar, I suspect the fingerprints were made when the guitar was checked over at the shop before sending – that’s ironic!! It’s not great and it’s good practice to have clean hands and a cloth at the ready when handling new guitars, especially black ones. I am sure they were trying to do the right thing by sending you strings and a cleaning kit, if they didn’t care they would have done nothing.
As for going forward with this, since it seems like they all do it as I suspected, you have to decide if it is something you can live with. If not then you will need to take this up with the retailer in which case I will be happy to share my findings with them. I can’t say what they will be willing to offer as a solution as that will depend on their returns procedure. I am sorry it’s not better news.

Best regards

Nick




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Mertay
post May 31 2016, 08:17 PM
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So as soon as the retailer sells the guitar, all responsibility is on them not PRS. Won't hurt to write them too although I wouldn't expect much as its been a while if I remember right since you got it.

From the stores I know where I live, they'd probably offer to send it to their luthier. Happened once to a friend as the guitars nut developed a problem soon after bought, the luthier they sended changed it and didn't ask any money.

This post has been edited by Mertay: May 31 2016, 08:18 PM


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bleez
post May 31 2016, 10:12 PM
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guitar guitar have a 12 month manufacturer warranty, that usually means they have to repair or replace it. although, doesnt sound like it is repairable.

"8.1 - All goods are supplied with a 12 month manufacturer's warranty unless specified otherwise. All pre-owned items carry a 90 day warranty. Perishable items, such as Amplifier valves, carry a 90-day warranty. "

I thought the PRS guy would have done more tbh, dunno why but I thought he would. Not the best advert for that SE model.


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Phil66
post May 31 2016, 10:16 PM
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Thank you very much Scott buddy,

I'll quote that in my next email. Nice one wink.gif I hope they don't say that the warranty is invalidated because it has been worked on by a luthier. mad.gif

Cheers:)

This post has been edited by Phil66: May 31 2016, 10:19 PM


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Phil66
post Jun 1 2016, 08:16 PM
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OK,

I emailed the dealer, no answer yet. In the mean time I emailed PRS Europe again saying that I expected more of PRS and that,Paul Reed Smith has or had a good customer care ethic. The bloke took this as a personal attack I think so I had to re-reply and tell him that I meant the man himself not branch of his company or anyone working there. I also said I am surprised a guitar with such a bad dead spot left the factory.

Anyway, his response to my email is below and I've also attached the report he mentions as I know some of you will want to read it. Basically they have all of the ammunition they need to win the argument and mitigate themselves.

Hi Phil,
Our customer care ethic is still very strong but unfortunately this affects all guitars from all manufacturers and no amount of customer care can resolve it. I have attached a paper by Dr Helmut Fleischer who carried out an in-depth study of the phenomena should you wish to understand it in greater depth – to sum up, the resonances in the body, neck and hardware can, at certain frequencies, have the effect of virtually cancelling out a particular note. Similarly there will be frequencies and notes where there are sweet spots, resulting in more sustain and body on certain notes.
Believe me if I could fix it I would (and I’d be a very rich man!) but the laws of physics are notoriously resistant to change.

Best regards


Attached File  Investigating_Dead_Spots_2nd_ed.__Acustica_FL___Zwi_.pdf ( 3.58MB ) Number of downloads: 1454



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Mertay
post Jun 1 2016, 08:32 PM
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Thanks for sharing, a long read but will read it later smile.gif


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klasaine
post Jun 1 2016, 09:17 PM
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Complete fucking bullshit, is all I have to say about that.


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Phil66
post Jun 1 2016, 09:25 PM
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I have to agree with you Ken but these David and Goliath fights rarely go the way of David, even getting a solicitor involved would be pointless unless the solicitor has a lot of guitar experience.

I'm definitely going to take the guitar to the next Paul Reed Smith Clinic when he comes to Birmingham and ask the man himself what he thinks of it. It will be around a year's time but I don't care, he should know what is being churned out this side of the pond.


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AK Rich
post Jun 1 2016, 09:32 PM
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You have got to be kidding me. If your guitar is not replaced, provided it is still under warranty, then after following this thread there is no way in hell I would ever spend money on a PRS. What a bunch of crap!
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Phil66
post Jun 1 2016, 10:05 PM
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I can't see them changing it Ken, the law and small print will be on their side sad.gif it may be physics but the thing is my issue is pretty bad, just as no wheel is truly round but BMW wouldn't sell a car with oval wheels and this issue is the sonic equivalent.

This post has been edited by Phil66: Jun 2 2016, 11:42 AM


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bleez
post Jun 1 2016, 10:30 PM
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why did the PRS guy bother checking and re-tuning a stock guitar to try and replicate the fault if this is as he claims in the second email, totally common with all guitars, all manufacturers and btw heres a pdf explaining it? surely if that was the case he's just have said that first.

the warranty on guitar guitars website states 'manufacturer warranty', pretty sure that means any returns will be sent back to the manufacturer ( prs ) to replace.

also, if lots of guitarists here with decades of experience are calling bullshit, then its more than likely bullshit!

my next guitar wont be a PRS dry.gif

This post has been edited by bleez: Jun 1 2016, 10:31 PM


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Phil66
post Jun 1 2016, 10:35 PM
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I agree Scott, and I respect everyone's opinion on here, I won't be buying any more PRS guitars anytime soon.


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Rammikin
post Jun 1 2016, 11:30 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jun 1 2016, 07:16 PM) *
OK,

I emailed the dealer, no answer yet. In the mean time I emailed PRS Europe again saying that I expected more of PRS and that,Paul Reed Smith has or had a good customer care ethic. The bloke took this as a personal attack I think so I had to re-reply and tell him that I meant the man himself not branch of his company or anyone working there. I also said I am surprised a guitar with such a bad dead spot left the factory.

Anyway, his response to my email is below and I've also attached the report he mentions as I know some of you will want to read it. Basically they have all of the ammunition they need to win the argument and mitigate themselves.

Hi Phil,
Our customer care ethic is still very strong but unfortunately this affects all guitars from all manufacturers and no amount of customer care can resolve it. I have attached a paper by Dr Helmut Fleischer who carried out an in-depth study of the phenomena should you wish to understand it in greater depth – to sum up, the resonances in the body, neck and hardware can, at certain frequencies, have the effect of virtually cancelling out a particular note. Similarly there will be frequencies and notes where there are sweet spots, resulting in more sustain and body on certain notes.
Believe me if I could fix it I would (and I’d be a very rich man!) but the laws of physics are notoriously resistant to change.

Best regards


Attached File  Investigating_Dead_Spots_2nd_ed.__Acustica_FL___Zwi_.pdf ( 3.58MB ) Number of downloads: 1454


I think there may be a misunderstanding here about the degree. The paper correctly states that some frequencies will be more resonant than others. I have a guitar that is so resonant when I play a low G that it's hard to keep the open G string from ringing noticeably. And there will also be frequencies that resonate less than average. But here's the thing: your recording shows a far more pronounced effect than anything reported in the paper (or experienced by others who have posted here). The use of the term "dead note" in the paper is probably an unfortunate choice of words, since it's referring to frequencies that have somewhat more or less sustain, not severe attenuation like you demonstrated in your recording. Nowhere in the paper does it say this phenomenon has "the effect of virtually cancelling out a particular note".

In other words, I wouldn't agree the paper gives them ammunition to win the argument.











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Mertay
post Jun 2 2016, 12:34 AM
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Here's a video I found on the tube (jump to 2.00);



To finalize my comments, I hope the vibration change of blocking the bridge will help but given all the shared info the chances doesn't seem strong sad.gif

I wasn't surprised by the answer from PRS (though I am surprised I'm the only member here who bumped into such problem with enough guitars to say its common--my bad luck I guess biggrin.gif ) but not satisfied either, it changed my view of their guitars and I will warn friends to check deadspots or any other problems when they ask me about them...if you want, make a video about it and we'll make it viral so more people can learn about this issue.

In the video the guy noted about fender fatfinger, I held one in my hands 1-2 weeks ago and didn't feel heavy. No idea how good it could work but a custom solution feels better to me.

There is a famous luthier here in Turkey who has experience with this problem, he can help making a custom headstock block (like the ones I shared previously) for you I guess if you can't find anyone in England (no idea if he works internationally but I can contact him for you+I'll handle any translation if needed). I liked the idea of using the tuner screws to hold the block thats mentioned in the video, so you can keep the guitar original with no extra holes.

But if you don't want to deal with that problem any further (to me you did all you could as a customer, we all learned something from your experience) I'd say thats ok too, if its a guitar you enjoy playing forget about that problem and continue your journey as its not like you'll need that note to sustain on everything you play biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Mertay: Jun 2 2016, 12:40 AM


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klasaine
post Jun 2 2016, 02:05 AM
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My response wasn't so much about the PRS replacement answer.

It was in regard to the 'Dead Spot' info/paper. I think it's it's complete B.S.
Like I've said a few times - I have never come across a 'dead spot' in an electric guitar such as the one's that paper and the PRS guy referred to - "all guitars have a dead spot". Bullshit. None of my guitars have a dead spot. Even my two piece of crap Teisco Del Reys that cost less than $60.00 new with a case don't have dead spots.

*I'm not really surprised at all about the PRS response regarding a new or fixed guitar. After what, 7 or 8 months(?). And I would not fight the battle for a SE model.

This post has been edited by klasaine: Jun 2 2016, 02:06 AM


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Rammikin
post Jun 2 2016, 07:14 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Jun 2 2016, 01:05 AM) *
It was in regard to the 'Dead Spot' info/paper. I think it's it's complete B.S.


I think there's some confusion on this point. The paper is factual and correct. However, it does not purport to prove whether sustain irregularities exist in a guitar. It may be a small effect, but they do exist. That's a given. All resonant bodies, like guitars, do. That's the very definition of resonance smile.gif. Mertay is correct and shouldn't feel unlucky. The purpose of the paper is a different topic: to investigate the source of that inevitable irregularity. I think the source of the confusion is the poor choice of the term "dead spot" in the paper. That misleads you into thinking they're talking about a prominent artifact when in fact it's often quite subtle.

Anyway, that paper addresses an interesting topic, but that topic is irrelevant here. The relevant issue is: does the guitar in question have excessive sustain irregularities? In other words, they've given him a paper to prove their point, but it doesn't do that at all. Personally, I'd use that fact to nail them to the wall smile.gif.

I kind of get the feeling people are passing that paper around, including at PRS, but nobody is reading it smile.gif.





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Phil66
post Jun 2 2016, 08:34 AM
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QUOTE (klasaine @ Jun 2 2016, 02:05 AM) *
*I'm not really surprised at all about the PRS response regarding a new or fixed guitar. After what, 7 or 8 months(?). And I would not fight the battle for a SE model.


I know Ken, I wish I'd found it earlier but due to me wanting to keep it in real good condition as there are only 180 of these, I hardly play it. Only the other day I thought to myself I might as well get some enjoyment from it rather than have it as an ornament and then I discovered the issue.

QUOTE (Rammikin @ Jun 2 2016, 07:14 AM) *
I think there's some confusion on this point. The paper is factual and correct. However, it does not purport to prove whether sustain irregularities exist in a guitar. It may be a small effect, but they do exist. That's a given. All resonant bodies, like guitars, do. That's the very definition of resonance smile.gif. Mertay is correct and shouldn't feel unlucky. The purpose of the paper is a different topic: to investigate the source of that inevitable irregularity. I think the source of the confusion is the poor choice of the term "dead spot" in the paper. That misleads you into thinking they're talking about a prominent artifact when in fact it's often quite subtle.

Anyway, that paper addresses an interesting topic, but that topic is irrelevant here. The relevant issue is: does the guitar in question have excessive sustain irregularities? In other words, they've given him a paper to prove their point, but it doesn't do that at all. Personally, I'd use that fact to nail them to the wall smile.gif.

I kind of get the feeling people are passing that paper around, including at PRS, but nobody is reading it smile.gif.


Thanks Rammikin,

Would you mind if I use some of your words in an email to them? Also, how would you word it to "nail" them?

Cheers buddy

This post has been edited by Phil66: Jun 2 2016, 08:29 AM


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Phil66
post Jun 2 2016, 11:41 AM
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QUOTE (Mertay @ Jun 2 2016, 12:34 AM) *
Here's a video I found on the tube (jump to 2.00);



To finalize my comments, I hope the vibration change of blocking the bridge will help but given all the shared info the chances doesn't seem strong sad.gif

I wasn't surprised by the answer from PRS (though I am surprised I'm the only member here who bumped into such problem with enough guitars to say its common--my bad luck I guess biggrin.gif ) but not satisfied either, it changed my view of their guitars and I will warn friends to check deadspots or any other problems when they ask me about them...if you want, make a video about it and we'll make it viral so more people can learn about this issue.

In the video the guy noted about fender fatfinger, I held one in my hands 1-2 weeks ago and didn't feel heavy. No idea how good it could work but a custom solution feels better to me.

There is a famous luthier here in Turkey who has experience with this problem, he can help making a custom headstock block (like the ones I shared previously) for you I guess if you can't find anyone in England (no idea if he works internationally but I can contact him for you+I'll handle any translation if needed). I liked the idea of using the tuner screws to hold the block thats mentioned in the video, so you can keep the guitar original with no extra holes.

But if you don't want to deal with that problem any further (to me you did all you could as a customer, we all learned something from your experience) I'd say thats ok too, if its a guitar you enjoy playing forget about that problem and continue your journey as its not like you'll need that note to sustain on everything you play biggrin.gif


Thanks Mertay,

I'll watch the video later. I'm not sure I want a block on the headstock though, I'd like to keep it original because of what it is, Thank you for the offer though.

Cheers


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Rammikin
post Jun 2 2016, 02:08 PM
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QUOTE (Phil66 @ Jun 2 2016, 07:34 AM) *
Would you mind if I use some of your words in an email to them? Also, how would you word it to "nail" them?


PM sent.


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vpavlov
post Jun 2 2016, 04:00 PM
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Phil,

I have exactly the same issue with my Ibanez RG1550.

Here's my personal view on the subject:

Every guitar has a resonance frequency -- its just plain old physics. Its just that sometimes the resonance frequency falls between the notes, and sometimes it falls on the notes. That's why some guitars are not affected, some are affected a little, and some -- like yours and mine -- are affected more seriously. But I think the vendors are not to blame, this is very chaotic; even small variations, for example in the wood structure, might move the resonance frequency around and no QA process can guarantee that a certain guitar has its resonance frequency where you want it, namely between the notes.

I cope with this by trying different string gauge and different tuning (A438-A444 as already suggested), hoping that it would go somewhere that it won't bother me. First time I found out about this, the dead note was on the A note, most severely pronounced on the high E-string, 17th fret, and it was awful. By changing the string gauge, using A438, and tuning 1/2 down, it moved to B (17th fret G-string on a Eb-tuned guitar) and it bothers me less there and I mostly ignore it. Sometimes I can't ignore it -- like in the Petrucci Made Easy lesson there's a sustain right there and I had to slide out in order to make it work somehow (https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=56873, around 0:24-25).

Moral of the story: I doubt PRS would want to change your guitar, but do give it a try. If not -- do not despair and try to cope with it by changing gauge, tuning, weights, blocking trem, basically everything the guys here already advised. Eventually you will mange to move it somewhere that's less of an issue.

And last and most importantly, I think there's a lesson to be learned by everyone -- one should always buy a guitar after manually checking each and every fret on each and every string for sustain.

Cheers and good luck,
-Val


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