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> How To Conquer "i'm Old And Will Never Be..."?
verciazghra
post Aug 15 2016, 09:12 AM
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I'm very sure that this is just a timing issue. Jason for one started very young with playing and played pretty much all the time. His brain was basically music and guitar from age 4 or whatever. Most of us don't have that privilege. You may argue that there are so many good "guitar prodigies" out there and that because you weren't one of them that makes them better than you. But it is in fact possible that they've played more guitar in total or had better teachers or a different focus than you which is the most probably.

Many people often take the example of Mozart as a prodigy... but the history of Mozart isn't that simple. He's estimated to have practiced chembalo for at least 10 000+ hours before being recognized(that's the time estimated for anyone to MASTER something). He's portrayed like a prodigy in the movie Amadeus because of artistic flavoring by the director of that movie.

To tell you the truth... there's no example of anyone becoming really good at something where they have not practiced to get there(except for maybe one or two savants).


And also what you're saying is you don't want to become the next Guthrie Govan?
He was really late to "show up" on the radar.


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Caelumamittendum
post Aug 15 2016, 01:17 PM
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I personally think it's a bit of a mix between talent and putting the hours in. I knew a guy once who knew nothing about playing piano at all who sat down and learned all of Für Elise in a matter of hours. Everything in the song, not just the part that everyone knows. Think he was about what...13 or 14 back then or something.

Of course these talented players have and still do put in the hours of practice, but I still believe some people learn things more easily than other people. Some people struggle their whole life learning scales, while others grasp them instantly.


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verciazghra
post Aug 15 2016, 02:38 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Aug 15 2016, 12:17 PM) *
I personally think it's a bit of a mix between talent and putting the hours in. I knew a guy once who knew nothing about playing piano at all who sat down and learned all of Für Elise in a matter of hours. Everything in the song, not just the part that everyone knows. Think he was about what...13 or 14 back then or something.

Of course these talented players have and still do put in the hours of practice, but I still believe some people learn things more easily than other people. Some people struggle their whole life learning scales, while others grasp them instantly.

I did that with harder songs than für Elise when I was a like 6 too... And I didn't play piano. It's not a hard song tho. If you're Christian then I understand that you may not take my next argument seriously but... There's something too arbitrary with being good at piano/guitar or anything else we do since more recently. Everybody has rhythm cause that's how we breathe and our hearts beats and how our feet move and how much of the other natural things we've been exposed to for many thousands of years behave. So rhythmically I think we all probably have it genetically. But as far as delicate ingrained perfectly executed specific muscle contractions and extensions go they are far too "recent" of an evolutionary asset to be either "good" at all or different in different individuals. There's just not enough time for that evolution to have taken place.

One can probably say with certainty that most people learn anything at a different rate... Because, that's what it looks like on the surface. But most often when you examine people that learn quickly, ((by the way I've always been considered by others to learn very quickly so I may not be the best judge on this)) they just have another way of thinking about it. A way, which they stumble upon, by chance most often. And a way which can be learned and used by anyone else. 9/10 that seems to be the case anyways.

Even if there is such a thing as talent...(which people have told me all my life that I have and I've come to hate that word so much that I try to find anything that disproves it)... The talent*time ratio is still never so large that anyone untalented or otherwise can't learn whatever they want. There's literally nothing that a person can learn that you can't learn. You can learn your way to a higher IQ too if you want... There's a lot of studies that have shown that people that do spacial rotation exercises for example greatly increase their "IQ". (IQ was also invented as a way for a french scientist to check the validity of their Educational System it was not meant as a static indicator of intelligence which is what it's often misinterpreted as today...)

Basically what I'm trying to say is... you can become whoever you want because your brain has plasticity. It will shape and form throughout your life and you can make it into the perfect machine for memorizing the most binary numbers in an hour, get more than 160 iq on iq tests, or a facility of music learning or anything else. It might take you a different time to turn your machine into that state which some people may be using "intuitively" but you happen to not. But their end result might not differ from yours at all. (Hell a lot of the time "prodigies" quit their instrument cause they haven't worked hard enough to form a strong connection to the instrument.)

Nobody will become the next Jason Becker or Yngwie Malmsteen(there are definately clones of both out there). But nobody will either become the next Caelumamittendum. You have an unique chance to show the world who you are, just as everybody has. What makes you you is what will make you unique and make people listen... not how well you can play the serrana arpeggios...

This post has been edited by verciazghra: Aug 15 2016, 02:39 PM


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bleez
post Aug 15 2016, 02:56 PM
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Very interesting post, verciazghra. Excellent viewpoint you have.


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Rhida
post Aug 15 2016, 03:04 PM
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Frankly who cares?
Set Some goals.
Work on your strengths and show the world your music.
You've got some serious skills but what are they good for?
Compete with yourself not with others.
You know I bet that Jason Becker would give anything to be on your chair right now. Everything you can imagine can be yours with work passion and dedication. But you've got to know yourself in deep.
Age is an excuse. Be a winner!


Age is only a number.

Be the player and the musician you want to be.

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Phil66
post Aug 15 2016, 03:07 PM
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QUOTE (bleez @ Aug 15 2016, 02:56 PM) *
Very interesting post, verciazghra. Excellent viewpoint you have.


Agreed.
I read a book recently about brain plasticity and music. Must dig it out if i can remember the title.


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Caelumamittendum
post Aug 15 2016, 03:36 PM
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I will not reply with a long post right now, maybe later, but I will say this, that I don't think everybody is born with a sense of melody, rythm or what not. That's just from my own experience of living in a family that has no rythm whatsoever. I'm not kidding here, but you could not get my dad to clap to a beat if it meant his life. Even in an audience of 500, you could pick out my dad as the one who's clapping totally off beat. Done that several times. It's okay though, he's way better than other people at other things, which he's not educated in.

Also, I'm not christian by the way, but I still believe some people learn, well, let's say different then, than other people, and this will benefit them more. I agree that 99% things can be learned, but some will take more hours than others. As an example one girl in my family apparently did 3-4 hours of homework every day during high school, I did about 3-4 hours in total in a year and still got better (albeit not GREAT) grades. I don't feel like I ever played the game or whatever, it just came a bit easy to me in those days. I could remember formulas after looking at them one time. I can't do that anymore. My memory is not what it was once and these days I will bike to the grocery store and walk home and wonder where my bike went.

Of course there's putting in the hours and the shifts, and while almost anything can be learned if you put in enough hours, to some it just comes easier, at least if you ask me and from what I've watched and seen. I've seen people play Für Elise as said, I know it's not that hardest piece, but some parts are at least difficult to me, in a very short time of practicing without knowing the instrument, and I've seen people pick up a guitar and play some chords in a matter of minutes and then being able to play along. At the same time I've also seen some people who has played guitar for 1-2 years, who struggled really play anything yet, even just some easy chords songs.

So in my experience, some people can be talented in different ways, but of course it's still about practicing and getting better. Practice makes perfect, but talent (whether that's talent in viewing things differently and thus learning quicker, or if it's "real talent")...talent could make things easier I suppose. As you say, you've learned some hard pieces at age 6 in a matter of hours, while I struggle for an hour just learning the first part of Für Elise on piano.

This is of course not based on anything but personal experiences.

And now this ended up quite long anyway.

QUOTE (bleez @ Aug 15 2016, 03:56 PM) *
Very interesting post, verciazghra. Excellent viewpoint you have.


I didn't mean to imply that some people could not learn to be good, but for some people, at least in my experience, it will take 5 minutes to learn a piece, while others will struggle learning it after 2 hours. I guess it's a matter of how you define talent maybe. If both people play the same, then it's fine for me, but I would of course like to be that guy who could look at a piece of music and play it after 5 minutes.

And just as an afterthought to my post, maybe it can be broken down to something about motivation too? How fast you learn, that is. Some people are more motivated than others, I suppose. Some people may "reward" themselves mentally for learning something, subconsciously, and thus have an easier time than someone who's focusing on the mistakes... I don't know what I'm saying here really. biggrin.gif Was just a thought I had.

Also, just to clarify again.

Just because you've got talent doesn't mean you become the best. And just because you've not got talent doesn't mean you can't become the best.



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verciazghra
post Aug 15 2016, 03:40 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Aug 15 2016, 02:27 PM) *
I will not reply with a long post right now, maybe later, but I will say this, that I don't think everybody is born with a sense of melody, rythm or what not. That's just from my own experience of living in a family that has no rythm whatsoever. I'm not kidding here, but you could not get my dad to clap to a beat if it meant his life. Even in an audience of 500, you could pick out my dad as the one who's clapping totally off beat. Done that several times. It's okay though, he's way better than other people at other things, which he's not educated in.


I'm not trying to say I'm right here this is just my subjective opinion based on reading about it.

Most tribes in the world have some kind of music in them. There's not a single person within those tribes that aren't a musician. It's different in our world people are inhibited by the fear of failing everything. If you can talk, you can play music. There's a sense of rhythm in speech as well as it is with walking. It might not be applied to your fathers hands yet and he might have a cognitive reason for clapping off beat one that can probably be unlearned and might not be anything other than him losing drifting off and losing focus.

There's some of this in the introduction of the book "Effortless Mastery" by Kenny Werner which greatly helps you reduce performance anxiety if that's something you feel you're suffering from.

Melody is also 100% learned because... there's no such thing as a 12 note system in the natural world. Our "pitches" that we used are only etched in our minds by forcefully listening to these for years and years. Tunings are a nice example of this since they've changed drastically with the equal and stretched tuning systems used today. So 100% it's cognitive, and since it's cognitive.. You can probably learn it. If you try listening to quartertonal music for a week you'll soon get used to hearing microtones which first simple sound out of tune. Even the natural overtones found inside notes are dissonant to the tuning that we use today. Also tunings are continental blalbablablabla...(I love music why is it so hard to stop talking about it...))))))))

Anyways it's fun to hear your perspective. I think keep expressing your perspective too but don't be bogged down.. I know I could be wrong about 90% of my preconcieved notions that's why most of my ideas about this is all from other sources. Things I can find in studies and books...


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"There's no such place as dumb question." -Dose One
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Caelumamittendum
post Aug 15 2016, 03:50 PM
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QUOTE (verciazghra @ Aug 15 2016, 04:40 PM) *
I'm not trying to say I'm right here this is just my subjective opinion based on reading about it.

Most tribes in the world have some kind of music in them. There's not a single person within those tribes that aren't a musician. It's different in our world people are inhibited by the fear of failing everything. If you can talk, you can play music. There's a sense of rhythm in speech as well as it is with walking. It might not be applied to your fathers hands yet and he might have a cognitive reason for clapping off beat one that can probably be unlearned and might not be anything other than him losing drifting off and losing focus.

There's some of this in the introduction of the book "Effortless Mastery" by Kenny Werner which greatly helps you reduce performance anxiety if that's something you feel you're suffering from.

Melody is also 100% learned because... there's no such thing as a 12 note system in the natural world. Our "pitches" that we used are only etched in our minds by forcefully listening to these for years and years. Tunings are a nice example of this since they've changed drastically with the equal and stretched tuning systems used today. So 100% it's cognitive, and since it's cognitive.. You can probably learn it. If you try listening to quartertonal music for a week you'll soon get used to hearing microtones which first simple sound out of tune. Even the natural overtones found inside notes are dissonant to the tuning that we use today. Also tunings are continental blalbablablabla...(I love music why is it so hard to stop talking about it...))))))))

Anyways it's fun to hear your perspective. I think keep expressing your perspective too but don't be bogged down.. I know I could be wrong about 90% of my preconcieved notions that's why most of my ideas about this is all from other sources. Things I can find in studies and books...


I'm not saying whether anyone can learn the 12 notes, of course they can, but people put melodies together different - and then of course it's subjective whether you like it or not, but I still think some people will have an easier time putting together "good" and memorable themes than others.

I agree that anything can be learned, as said, but some learn faster than others, and become better at something quicker than others. I'm not just talking music here, but anything. I started playing football relatively late compared to my friends (I was around 10, they started at about 7), but quickly got to play for the better teams. I put in the hours on the field, don't get me wrong, but I did this because it felt easy to me, and for this reason it was fun playing.

I may have edited my above post while you replied, not sure smile.gif

Healthy discussion here, I feel. I'm not saying I'm right either by the way. I think in some way we're talking much about the same thing though. If it has taken my dad 68 years to learn to clap on beat, then I'd be as cocky as to say he's not too talented in that regard. He's been listening to music for at least 55 of those years.

This post has been edited by Caelumamittendum: Aug 15 2016, 03:56 PM


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verciazghra
post Aug 15 2016, 04:46 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Aug 15 2016, 02:50 PM) *
I'm not saying whether anyone can learn the 12 notes, of course they can, but people put melodies together different - and then of course it's subjective whether you like it or not, but I still think some people will have an easier time putting together "good" and memorable themes than others.

I agree that anything can be learned, as said, but some learn faster than others, and become better at something quicker than others. I'm not just talking music here, but anything. I started playing football relatively late compared to my friends (I was around 10, they started at about 7), but quickly got to play for the better teams. I put in the hours on the field, don't get me wrong, but I did this because it felt easy to me, and for this reason it was fun playing.

I may have edited my above post while you replied, not sure smile.gif

Healthy discussion here, I feel. I'm not saying I'm right either by the way. I think in some way we're talking much about the same thing though. If it has taken my dad 68 years to learn to clap on beat, then I'd be as cocky as to say he's not too talented in that regard. He's been listening to music for at least 55 of those years.


I mean maybe.. But like I think mostly people who get good at putting music together better are just doing it more... I mean Jason Becker for example... is not a great composer. He's shallow in his note choice, his rhythmic vocabulary and his development of themes. Of course that's a bit subjective yet I mean that in the best way possible. For his style of music, he doesn't have to do more than what he does. Like there's actually may not be enough room to do much more than what he does. (I'm a huge fan of Jason.)

I think the second point you're making is mostly about what you said earlier, motivation. I think a lot of the time the things that go into making you either successful at something quickly or plateauing early is mostly due to environmental factors. Psychologically I must say... people have pretty weak self-confidence. And if a child playing a sport makes a mistake and gets yelled at because of it, that can be with them for a looong time. Or they can simply lose a bit of your interest. Also with a relatively older mind when you enter a sport you may have a kick start in other ways such as general strength, motoric functions and you may psychologically be stronger. I'm not saying this is what happen I just see that

"There are way too many things that could be going on here, for me to actually know if the simplest answer(which would be that you're more talented) could be the undisputed truth.". And the further I study what people can do with their minds with different learning technique, specific training, visualization, meditation, and changing psychological viewpoint. The more I see that there will probably never be a time where I can say with certainty that there might be such a thing as talent and even if there is whatever shortcoming you have can probably be overcome.

I more and more think the talent thing might even have been invented by LAZY PEOPLE who only saw the finished product of Mozart or Jason, and not the work they put in. smile.gif

It's like that.. Oh I think it was someone coming up to Bill Evans saying "I'd give my life to play like you." to which he replied "Why not... I did."




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"The only love affair I have ever had was with music." -Maurice Ravel

"There's no such place as dumb question." -Dose One
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Caelumamittendum
post Aug 15 2016, 04:50 PM
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QUOTE (verciazghra @ Aug 15 2016, 05:46 PM) *
I mean maybe.. But like I think mostly people who get good at putting music together better are just doing it more... I mean Jason Becker for example... is not a great composer. He's shallow in his note choice, his rhythmic vocabulary and his development of themes. Of course that's a bit subjective yet I mean that in the best way possible. For his style of music, he doesn't have to do more than what he does. Like there's actually may not be enough room to do much more than what he does. (I'm a huge fan of Jason.)

I think the second point you're making is mostly about what you said earlier, motivation. I think a lot of the time the things that go into making you either successful at something quickly or plateauing early is mostly due to environmental factors. Psychologically I must say... people have pretty weak self-confidence. And if a child playing a sport makes a mistake and gets yelled at because of it, that can be with them for a looong time. Or they can simply lose a bit of your interest. Also with a relatively older mind when you enter a sport you may have a kick start in other ways such as general strength, motoric functions and you may psychologically be stronger. I'm not saying this is what happen I just see that

"There are way too many things that could be going on here, for me to actually know if the simplest answer(which would be that you're more talented) could be the undisputed truth.". And the further I study what people can do with their minds with different learning technique, specific training, visualization, meditation, and changing psychological viewpoint. The more I see that there will probably never be a time where I can say with certainty that there might be such a thing as talent and even if there is whatever shortcoming you have can probably be overcome.

I more and more think the talent thing might even have been invented by LAZY PEOPLE who only saw the finished product of Mozart or Jason, and not the work they put in. smile.gif

It's like that.. Oh I think it was someone coming up to Bill Evans saying "I'd give my life to play like you." to which he replied "Why not... I did."


Oh, trust me, I know they put hours in - all the best people did. You don't get anywhere without putting the hours in, except maybe being very lucky, I don't know. But as I think I said in the other post:

Just because you've got talent doesn't mean you become the best. And just because you've not got talent doesn't mean you can't become the best.


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Fran
post Aug 18 2016, 12:40 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Aug 3 2016, 05:16 PM) *
...a talent like Jason Becker was or any of the other famous guitar players that were already prolific guitar players in their teenage years?

I'm having a bit of a crisis today regarding the above laugh.gif I'm seeing all these amazing guitar players, and I'm thinking: "why didn't I practice properly for the last 10 years, so I could be really good today?". Of course there's nothing I can do about it now, except practice properly for the next ten years and become that 37 year old dude who suddenly became good at guitar. I know it's never too late, but just today it's a bit discouraging knowing that players like Jason Becker was 18 and could play like he could at the time, or some other young talents out there. I know they played a lot more than I have done, so there's a logical explanation to it, but you know, sometimes it would be nice to have a time machine to go back and do things over smile.gif

How do you fight thoughts like the above? smile.gif


You are just a kid! Just play and have fun, trust me, 10 years go by FAST.


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Caelumamittendum
post Aug 19 2016, 01:55 PM
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QUOTE (Fran @ Aug 18 2016, 01:40 PM) *
You are just a kid! Just play and have fun, trust me, 10 years go by FAST.


I know I'm not THAT old, but I still feel like I've wasted the last 10 years where I could have progressed a lot more smile.gif


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Wyverex
post Aug 19 2016, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE (Caelumamittendum @ Aug 19 2016, 12:55 PM) *
I know I'm not THAT old, but I still feel like I've wasted the last 10 years where I could have progressed a lot more smile.gif


I know how you feel! I've started making music 15 years ago and jumped from drums to bass to piano to guitar. So I played a bit of everything and nothing really well. There were so many times I said to myself: "If I had just concentrated on a single instrument all the time (or even just practiced better), how good would I be now rolleyes.gif "

But today I know that it doesn't really matter. I did what I did and had fun with it nonetheless. The only way is forward, so now I concentrate on the guitar and make the best out of it. There's is no use in dwelling in the past when all it takes to get better is playing right now in the present smile.gif
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FunktheBlues
post Sep 18 2016, 06:31 AM
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I am 54 year old and been playing 40 years. The second half of my guitar career is going to much more fun then the first half. And just remember that Aerosmith, Stones, Paul McCartney are still touring in their 70s. The late great Les Paul played the Iridium in NYC every Tuesday night until he was like 92.

Never live life with regrets. You are exactly where you are supposed to be in life based on the decisions you made everyday prior to today. If you want to change the speed at which you improve, change your daily actions and focus on just today. If you practice, and I mean practice everyday and not start to practice and then start noodling around on guitar, that is not practicing.

The reason I just joined this site was the REC program. It's virtually impossible not to improve if you do as the instructors tell you to do. They hold you accountable which is another reason I joined because left on my own, I will never get as much done.

Remember that an apple a day is much better for you than 7 apples on Sunday. Same goes for practicing. An hour everyday is much more important than 7 hours once a week.

The other point I need to make is that one year from today is going to arrive whether you like it or not. So the question is how much will you have improved by September 17th, 2017?

Most players, even me who prefer Gary Moore and Micheal Schenker over the super speed shredders would love to be able to shred once in a while. So here's the secret to making that dream a reality. BUY A METRONOME

If you can play a riff at 100 BPMs without any mistakes, bumping it up to 101 BPMs will be almost impossible to detect and you will have no problem playing that line. If you do this every 3 or 4 days, at the end of a year, that is an increase of 104 BPMs and and that 100 BPM line is now at 204 BPMs which makes you a legit rock star shredder. Question is are you willing to pay your dues and spend a year upping the BPMs 2 every week?.

When I was learning guitar back in 1978, there were no online sites, heck, there was no internet or even flip phones. I had to learn by ear. Then came the VHS tapes from players like Paul Gilbert and just about any style of guitar could be learned by using these home instructional tapes. Soon came DVDs and now everything has moved online. It is so easy to learn guitar today with sites like this and Youtube that anyone with a desire to learn should easily become a strong intermediate player in 3 years tops. .

The saying talk-the-talk or walk-the-walk really does apply to musicians who want to improve but do not see progress. They have not paid their dues and have too much fun noodling around than focusing on a certain scale, playing it perfectly without a single mistake, and once you are able to, up that metronome 1 BPM. After one year, you will be blown away how much you improved. I would make a REC of any lesson on this site tomorrow, stay focused, note the speed at which you can play every note perfectly, try what I suggested upping metronome, and in one year, you decide if focused practicing everyday has made a big improvement in your playing. I surmise you will feel like you put 10 more years into practicing from a single year of no excuses, I must practice for an hour mentality. Reward yourself with a new axe when you have increased your speed by 50 BPMs. If you only raised the metronome one BPM a week, at end of year, you will be blown away when you are flying up and down the fingerboard never noticing how much better you were getting because no one can detect a single BPM increase. 50 BPMs is an insanely huge increase. 100 BPMs and you will be considered a rock hero.

Of course, you also want to work on other areas of playing but soloing seems to be what every guitar player strives to get better at. For me, I love soloing but developing heavy rhythm chops is even more satisfying to me. Add music theory to the mix and the magic will happen.

I hope this helps.

Old man BobbyD 55 next July and loving life.

QUOTE (Rhida @ Aug 15 2016, 02:04 PM) *
Frankly who cares?
Set Some goals.
Work on your strengths and show the world your music.
You've got some serious skills but what are they good for?
Compete with yourself not with others.
You know I bet that Jason Becker would give anything to be on your chair right now. Everything you can imagine can be yours with work passion and dedication. But you've got to know yourself in deep.
Age is an excuse. Be a winner!


Age is only a number.

Be the player and the musician you want to be.


Love your response Rhida. You get it.
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Todd Simpson
post Sep 19 2016, 08:17 PM
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Some great responses in this thread smile.gif No matter what ones age, there are many pearls of wisdom to be gleaned from reading through these posts smile.gif One thing that I have personally had work for me, ( I used to feel/think these kinds of things all the time, "I'm never gonna make anything substantial", "I"m just not very good if I"m honest") etc. Every player, every human has these thoughts/feelings/fears to some degree. They can make certain days harder than others for sure smile.gif

It was when I finally decided to learn how to cut loose of my baggage/ballast/personal B.S. that I began to feel much better about everything. It was triggered in part by someone talking about MONEY and saying "You can't take it with ya". It made me think of what else we can't take with us.Many of the things that fall in to that category (certainly not all) are, in fact, worthless in terms of overall happiness and satisfaction with daily life.

Immediately I thought of GUILT and REGRET. Two things that used to fill my thoughts as a younger man. I decided then and there that these two things were simply ballast. I decided to eject them from my mind and save the room for more positive things/thoughts. It was like sitting down two huge sacks of bricks I'd been carrying my entire life.

After much practice (mental/emotional practice that is) I"ve trained myself to simply not allow REGRET/GUILT in to my head. It's worthless baggage and you can't take it with ya as they say smile.gif No matter what faith system, or even lack of a faith system one has, Money, Regret and Guilt, all get left behind when we shed the mortal coil. Thankfully smile.gif It does take some practice as guit/regret are natural human emotions that are quite common. Training yourself not to feel them does take time and much "self reminding". But it worked for me smile.gif It may not work for everyone, but thank goodness it worked for me. smile.gif Now, I only do what makes me happy. I don't experience guilt or regret. Its very liberating smile.gif

Todd

This post has been edited by Todd Simpson: Sep 19 2016, 08:19 PM


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